Logical Problems with Calvinism

[sdowney717]

Wrong. All men are drawn to Christ. Not all men come and stay.

John 12:32
32"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Tim 1:19
Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked.

Heb 10:26
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

James 5
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

The way someone responds to Christ's word determines whether they are anti-Christ or with Christ. Since your words differ from what Christ says, you are an antichrist.
John 17New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Prays for Himself
17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have yet to address adequately the crystal clear scriptures that lay out conditions for our salvation.

Probably the most succinct is Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he must do to be saved.

They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

Here a few other verses on the subject of how to receive salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

 

[Thursday]

The way someone responds to Christ's word determines whether they are anti-Christ or with Christ. Since your words differ from what Christ says, you are an antichrist.
John 17New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Prays for Himself
17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

You ignored the verses I posted which show that Jesus draws ALL men to himself.

He will not cast us away, but he won't stop us from leaving.

 

[Thursday]

Probably the most succinct is Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he must do to be saved.

They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

Here a few other verses on the subject of how to receive salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Belief is necessary, but not sufficient. Even the demons believe.

Paul said that we reap what we sow.

Romans 2
God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.

Matt 25
45"Then He will answer them, I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.'
46"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[ToBeLoved]

Belief is necessary, but not sufficient. Even the demons believe.

Demons know God exists since they have been in heaven.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The way someone responds to Christ's word determines whether they are anti-Christ or with Christ. Since your words differ from what Christ says, you are an antichrist.

Those are pretty harsh words that I do not think are very respectful

 

[sdowney717]

You ignored the verses I posted which show that Jesus draws ALL men to himself.

He will not cast us away, but he won't stop us from leaving.

All Jesus is saying is that He is the one doing the drawing of men to Himself, if He be raised up, which He was.
Not that He draws each and every man to God, else then you're believing the heresy that everyone is saved.

All here is that greek was 'pas' which has several meanings including men individually
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3956&t=KJV

So then
Jhn 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw individually men unto me."
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw collectively, some of all types unto me."

1. individually
   1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
   1. some of all types

 

[sdowney717]

Christ says all that are drawn are saved in John 6.
So you can not say Christ draws all men to Christ in John 12, else you must believe all men are saved.
You can not be of such a double mind and remain true to scripture. No, each verse must agree with each other in context as scripture can not be broken.

 

[Thursday]

All Jesus is saying is that He is the one doing the drawing of men to Himself, if He be raised up, which He was.

No, that is what you are saying. Jesus said he would draw ALL Men to himself.

Also,

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Note here that even if Jesus wants to draw you in you can resist. Our cooperation is necessary:

Matt 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

 

[Thursday]

Demons know God exists since they have been in heaven.

Exactly. And they know Jesus is the savior. They believe, but it is not enough for salvation.

 

[Thursday]

Christ says all that are drawn are saved in John 6.
So you can not say Christ draws all men to Christ in John 12, else you must believe all men are saved.
You can not be of such a double mind and remain true to scripture. No, each verse must agree with each other in context as scripture can not be broken.

In John 6 Jesus is talking about the apostles.

John 6
70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

 

[sdowney717]

No, that is what you are saying. Jesus said he would draw ALL Men to himself.

Also,

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Note here that even if Jesus wants to draw you in you can resist. Our cooperation is necessary:

Matt 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Sure they were not willing in their flesh to come to God being naturally minded men, they can not know God so therefore do not receive the things of God and so they are destroyed.
You're ignoring that those God calls are those God draws and its those who get saved because God has foreknown them in love before time began to give to us this purpose to be the children of God.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

You can not believe this because of your church indoctrination-inoculation or say natural mind that is contrary to these things. Of course God can choose to overcome that in your life, if He so wills, then it will be done in your life.

 

[Thursday]

Sure they were not willing in their flesh to come to God being naturally minded men, they can not know God so therefore do not receive the things of God and so they are destroyed.
You're ignoring that those God calls are those God draws and its those who get saved because God has foreknown them in love before time began to give to us this purpose to be the children of God.

All these words in an effort to change the meaning of scripture.

You are repeating man made dogma. The bible is quite clear that we can reject God's call.

2 Chron 15:2
If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.

 

[sdowney717]

All these words in an effort to change the meaning of scripture.

You are repeating man made dogma. The bible is quite clear that we can reject God's call.

2 Chron 15:2
If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.

Those who seek God, have been given the new heart, they are regenerated already and so seek for God.
None of the elect who are 'the saved' , 'His sheep' will depart the faith for demonic doctrines.
The sheep follow Christ, they flee from the voice of a stranger.

John 10New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus the True Shepherd
10 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

 

[Thursday]

Those who seek God, have been given the new heart, they are regenerated already and so seek for God.
None of the elect who are 'the saved' , 'His sheep' will depart the faith for demonic doctrines.
The sheep follow Christ, they flee from the voice of a stranger.

More of your words that are directly contradicted by scripture.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


Why give us this warning if it didn't matter?

1 Tim 1:19
holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.

So your faith can be shipwrecked.

 

[sdowney717]

More of your words that are directly contradicted by scripture.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


Why give us this warning if it didn't matter?

1 Tim 1:19
holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.

So your faith can be shipwrecked.

Some God gives to them a new regenerated heart, so that they walk and seek after God. God does this work in them.
Ezekiel 11
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Som God leaves them in their natural state to follow after the lusts of their heart.
21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord God.

 

[sdowney717]

The New Covenant, how it works.
God puts in us the new heart, for those who He has chosen to know Him as Christ said in Luke 10.
This is entirely His calling of us according to His election of us to know Him.
God regenerates us and writes His laws onto our hearts and puts His laws into their minds. God is monergistically acting without consulting those He monergistically acts upon.

Hebrews 8
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[sdowney717]

That He foreknew us in love and chose us Paul here mentions again as in many other places does he so write also.
And this He has done for us not according to our actions - works, but only according to His determining grace. towards us who are His very own elect.

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

 

[Thursday]

That He foreknew us in love and chose us Paul here mentions again as in many other places does he so write also.
And this He has done for us not according to our actions - works, but only according to His determining grace. towards us who are His very own elect.

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Posting a bunch if disjointed irrelevant scripture doesn't help your argument.

Why aren't these verses true?

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


1 Tim 1:19
holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.

 

[sdowney717]

Posting a bunch if disjointed irrelevant scripture doesn't help your argument.

Why aren't these verses true?

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


1 Tim 1:19
holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.

Romans 11 says it this way,
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
So Paul speaks unto all the gentiles here, not individuals of the body of Christ.
And Paul teaches of the jews corporately also, for example.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

So Paul is teaching not from an individual calling point of view, but nationally and figuratively of jews versus the gentiles as a whole.
God's favor is on those who stand by faith, obviously Christ saves believers, not unbelievers.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said.Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Correct, God will not save unbelievers in Christ, why should this be difficult to comprehend?

John 15, is a positive affirmation from Christ, there is nothing negative spoken.

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

None of his chosen apostles were lost except the son of perdition, Judas.
Christ keeps safe in God all those the Father gives Him, read John 17.