Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Whether it is your own good works alone or yielding to the Spirit - you still base salvation on human works. Nothing is changed by what you said and listed in your post.

Sorry - but I doubt very much that you didn't read the rest of it.

But I can see why you didn't digest it. I believe that you were likely convicted by the Holy Spirit and ran from His conviction like a scalded cat.

Adding a little something like this at the end of every post does not negate the harm that you are doing here.

And I thought you were taking a break from here, my friend.

In any event, may God bless you.


...

 

[Marvin Knox]

And I thought you were taking a break from here, my friend.

In any event, may God bless you. ...

I was.

I commented on that when I came back on.

I will likely have to go away for a while again. It may well be for quite a while as I thought that I would this last time.

I'm sure you wish my last break had been much longer.

You can't handle the truth.

 

[GillDouglas]

With so many varied beliefs within Calvinism, I do not believe I am off in every case. Again, you have to understand the principle of how things work. For example: Let's just say you are wrong (even though you think you right). If you are wrong, that means you are taking away man's responsibility in accepting the gospel (if you are wrong). So if I believe my position on the Scriptures is correct (and my position is indeed true), then the Calvinist is taking away the responsibilty out of accepting the gospel out of the hands of men. The gospel then becomes something God must do despite the Command Jesus gave us concerning the Great Commission. In fact, we know not every church follows Jesus correctly. The report card Jesus gave to the various churches in Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 lets us know this and Jesus tells even one church to repent or they will go thru the Tribulation.
....

You don't understand the principle of how things work. Men can do NOTHING without God. Men are absolutely powerless to change the condition of the heart that they are born with. Only by His grace and mercy are we brought alive, spiritually. God uses His children to bring others to Him by way of ANYTHING (word or works) they do, but it is He who then works on the heart of the unbeliever. That's why we know we must know Him better and make Him known, continually and trust that He is using us to bring His children home. Do you really not understand that God is the Author of this world?

I bet you're the kind of guy that believes in luck, karma, coincidence, making his own destiny, etc. am I right?

 

[tulipbee]

Men can't exist without God and yet some here say they can

 

[tulipbee]

An interesting, but inaccurate list. The proof that you don't KNOW Calvinism is the appeal to a source that is designed around the premise that "Calvinism must be wrong, and here's why." Study the doctrine itself. A good place to start would be the Canons of Dort, and the Westminster Confession. That's where you will get it straight from its original sources. I'll bet you won't. And you will need to approach the study with an open mind, and asking the Holy Spirit to inform and enlighten you. Again, I'm betting you won't. Why? You're afraid that you might find out that you've been wrong.

You don't have to be a hyper to believe God runs the universe

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was.

I commented on that when I came back on.

I will likely have to go away for a while again. It may well be for quite a while as I thought that I would this last time.

I'm sure you wish my last break had been much longer.

You can't handle the truth.

May the Lord bless you and may His love shine upon you while you are away.

Peace be unto you.
And please be well.


...

 

[Marvin Knox]

You don't understand the principle of how things work. Men can do NOTHING without God. Men are absolutely powerless to change the condition of the heart that they are born with. Only by His grace and mercy are we brought alive, spiritually. God uses His children to bring others to Him by way of ANYTHING (word or works) they do, but it is He who then works on the heart of the unbeliever. That's why we know we must know Him better and make Him known, continually and trust that He is using us to bring His children home. Do you really not understand that God is the Author of this world?

I bet you're the kind of guy that believes in luck, karma, coincidence, making his own destiny, etc. am I right?

Very early on in my walk with the Lord I understood how the Bible presents God to us as being omnipresent. He is not only transcendent and seated on a throne above and beyond us - He is also fully present in every single fiber of our being.

God is infinite in His being. All things proceed from Him. Every single thing that happens in His creation is in some way happening because of the Word of God who has been sent forth to display various facets of the glory of God.

As the scriptures say, "In Him we live and move and have our being".

People who have a very limited view of the sovereignty of God, it seems to me, have to put a whole lot of basic theology on the shelf to believe the things they do about the absolutely free will of man.

I don't want to put it too awfully strong. But it does sometimes seem that many others believe in a different Word of God than I do. I read that in Him all things consist. That seems pretty inclusive when God says "all".

Anyway - it's very hard to know exactly where to start with arguments for the total sovereignty of God. So many things have to be ignored to believe that anyone is as independent of God as some would teach. It's like some folks here in the forum have skipped over the basics and unwisely moved right into advanced discussions in soteriology.

 

[Albion]

You and Gil appear to be on the side of this issue, when we get right down to it. FWIW, I incline that way also, but I think the omnipresence of God and his place in bringing the person to saving Faith and keeping him secure are quite different from the suggestion some have made that we then are moved like puppets by God when it comes to us performing good deeds.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The problem with thinking that God micro-manages His human creation is no where in the Bible in any bible chapter.

Since the beginning Adam and Eve had free-will. God gave them SO MUCH free-will that sin entered the human race. Let us remember that Adam and Eve walked in PERFECT communion with God. Before sin, God was talking to them and communing with them in the garden.

Now there are a limited number of situations that God did intervene in some way, but that is the exception.

So SHOW ME with overwhelming evidence just how much God micro-manages His creation throughout the Bible. Even in the OT, God let Israel many times disobey Him, with consequences of course, but disobey they did.

So let's stop talking about theory for a while and let us get into the Bible and actual people and how Calvinism is represented through the people of the Bible.

This should be a new and interesting aspect that I believe will show Calvinism to be in error.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus never told us to breath oxygen, that doesn't mean we don't do so. But again, the Bible says we are to be imitators of Christ and we know there was a spiritual benefit in using parables.

...

That is your reply to why you believe that we should speak in parables?

If you look at Paul's epistles, one of the main points of course is the gospel, the Good News. That Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind and through His blood on the cross, humans have the forgiveness of sin and are reconnected with God.

Jesus spoke in parables because He had GREAT spiritual insight to share. NEW spiritual insight that was not easy to understand for those who lived during His time and did not have the New Testament. We have the complete Word of God, so there is no need for parables at all.

This is an extremely flawed concept because none, I repeat none of the Apostles or New Testament writer's used parables. There was no need.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But parables are mentioned in Scripture. Parables were used by both our Lord (who is our example spiritually) and by the Canaanite woman. Be honest now, the only reason you are resistant to making a parable of showing how OSAS is good and moral is because we both know that you or anyone else cannot make one....

I don't know how to make this any more clear. Your request is ridiculous. Paul, whom you seem to dismiss, tells believers to imitate him as He imitates Christ. So, where are there any parables from him?? Hm??

He NEVER used parables. And the Canaanite woman didn't use any parable either. And Jesus never used one on her. I suggest you actually read Scripture before trying to make comment about it. He gave her a metaphor. That is different than a parable.

You asked for real world but only meant parable, which is NOT real world, but a hypothetical.

It appears that you're just quite confused on a lot of things and on a lot of levels.

You think real world only means a parable.

You think a metaphor is a parable.

You tnink Jesus wanted His followers to speak in parables, yet His own disciples didn't even understand His parables until He explained them to them.

You think believers should speak in parables when the most advanced Bible teacher of all time NEVER used parables.

I've shown WHY Jesus taught in parables, and it isn't complimentary for the recipients. Yet you want the same.

I've given an actual real world example, by Paul's testimony. If you don't like that, it's only because you've closed your mind to Biblical truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I find that I learn the best when my beliefs are challenged or under fire.
...

Yet, you haven't learned a thing, in spite of very good solid doctrinal teaching. All you've done is dig your heels in deeper and deeper.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus never told us to breath oxygen, that doesn't mean we don't do so. But again, the Bible says we are to be imitators of Christ and we know there was a spiritual benefit in using parables....

Yet, even Paul, the most advanced Bible teacher of all time, NEVER taught in parables.

You've got zero evidence from Scripture that to imitate Christ means to speak in parables.

btw, since you've asked for a parable, are you asking for a parable that Christ taught that would support my position, or did you expect me to conjur up one on my own??

I ask, because anything I conjur up as a parable (hypothetical) isn't necessarily Scriptural truth, so what's the point of it anyway?

I think the only reason you're asking for a parable is to keep the discussion off balance so that you can hide behind your request, as if it's legitimate or something.

But it isn't even close to being legitimate. Jesus never even suggested that anyone speak or teach in parables, and we know WHY He did, and who He did it to. None of His disciples spoke in parables, not even the apostle Paul, the greatest Bible teacher in history.

There is zero evidence from Scripture that anyone is even expected to. So that's the reason for your request. Just to try to have something to hide behind. Cause you've got nothing else in your defense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Many here keep claiming I believe in works salvation when that is not true.

It is absolutely true, even thought you do not know that.

Speaking of salvation in terms of sinless perfection DEMANDS works. Certainly not grace. Which you keep proving that you have no clue what it means.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not a chance. I believe OSAS is highly unbiblical.

It's been proved that your belief is flawed.

How so? Try making a parable out of it some time. I mean, you do not have to post it here. Make it your own personal project or mission. Try to actually do it. You will find that you cannot make a parable to show how OSAS is moral and good.....

Just another straw man to hide behind, as if any parable would even satisfy you.

But we don't need man-made parables (I wouldn't accept them either) when we have the Word of God. Maybe that doesn't impress you, but it impresses me greatly.

And Paul clearly taught eternal security, which you've been given and rejected. You're on your own.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay, so who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

As for the rest of what you had written: Sorry, I started to read the beginning of your post and I could not bring myself to read anymore.

Anyways, please be well on taking your break, my friend.
And may God bless you.....

What does any of this matter anyway?

You've already admitted that you continue to sin. So, are you yet saved or not? And even though the good works commanded in Scripture are done in the power of the Holy Spirit, Paul was clear about believers NOT grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. That would be when we aren't producing good works.

Why do you preach sinless perfection when you yourself haven't yet achieved it? Why should anyone pay any attention to your theories?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually, one of the major reasons Jesus used parables was that the mysteries of the Kingdom was not given to unbelievers but to believers.

Clear proof here that you simply do not understand anything that Jesus said about parables. It wasn't the parable that Jesus taught believers, esp His own disciples, but the EXPLANATION of the parables, which the unbelievers AND His own disciples DIDN'T understand.

In other words, parables were a blessing to those who were able to actually hear and understand them.]

Wrong. Jesus had to explain the parables to His own disciples. They did NOT understand them.

However, for the unbeliever who could not understand them it stood before them as a device for both judgment and mercy.

Even His own disciples did NOT understand the parables.

For the Canaanite woman was blessed by using a parable of her own with Jesus. For her daughter was healed and Jesus said she had great faith. This was all because she used a parable that expounded upon the parable Jesus gave her.

Could you please identify the parable that you keep noting? Because Jesus DIDN'T use a parable with her.

Imagine the type of miracles or blessings in your life could take place if you decided to make a truthful and honest parable amongst the brethren....

Why bother with man-made hypotheticals when we have the actual WORD OF GOD? Why isn't that good enough for you?

Oh, yeah. To hide behind when you have no other defense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did Jesus answer everyone? No. Did Jesus always give a straight or direct answer to everyone so that they would understand? No. Anyways, I believe my answer is the solution to your question in an indirect way. You are seeking for a specific command in order for their to be some kind of approval to do so. I believer there is a command that would cover us using parables, but it is not the "hit you over the head" type command you are probably looking for....

Why don't you just give Brian a parable in order to teach him? You request that of others. Does that not apply to yourself as well?

 

[Albion]

Many here keep claiming I believe in works salvation when that is not true.

FWIW, I too feel that your posts have left us feeling uncertain about that.

It appears that you don't believe that way...but, then again, some of what you have written makes it appear that you're committed to some sort of a middle position that's hard to nail down.

 

[Thursday]

Paul tells us that a man reaps what he sows.

That directly contradicts Calvinism.