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Logical Problems with Calvinism

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I wish you'd just ask what I believe about God's justification of people through the faith that comes through hearing the gospel preached to them.

What you just said is a total falsehood concerning my beliefs and those of Calvinists as well.

No one that I know of from my side of the isle believes that God saves people without the faith that comes through hearing the gospel. No one links regeneration directly to justification. To say otherwise is a falsehood.

Stop misrepresenting our beliefs. (IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'VE BEEN ASKED TO STOP THAT A FEW TIMES BEFORE.)

Not all Calvinists believe the same thing. Why are you assuming your belief is the only one? Also, I have heard many Calvinists say it is in regeneration that one is first saved before hearing the gospel.


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Marvin Knox

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Not all Calvinists believe the same thing. Why are you assuming your belief is the only one? Also, I have heard many Calvinists say it is in regeneration that one is first saved before hearing the gospel. ...
I've been around Calvinism for a long long time and never heard that said.

Can you supply a quote from one of the "many"?
 
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GillDouglas

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@Jason0047 @FreeGrace2 @ToBeLoved All men, in their natural state (assuming any one of you believes in the doctrine of Original Sin), are rebels against God; and though an unregenerate man might do many things which the law of God requires, which would commend them as godly men among men, does nothing with reference to God. A man who does 'good' in the sight of men lack the principle that alone makes him righteous in the sight of God. These virtues of the unregenerate man are fleeting and fading flowers, only temporary. Those unregenerate who possess such 'faith' is like the seed which falls upon the stony soil, springing up with promise of fruit, yet soon withers because it has no root. Salvation is ABSOLUTELY AND SOLELY OF GRACE!!!

Unregenerate men are generally offended by this idea of the true state of mankind, and his inability to bring himself to a saved state. He readily accepts any theory which makes him even partly independent of God; wishing to be the master of his fate and the captain of his soul. Yet the moral condition of men in this fallen world is proof enough that a man, in all his claims of 'good' are unfounded, and his only hope is in the sovereign grace of God Himself. Until he is brought to feel it, to truly know his condition and the means by which he is to be saved, he will never seek help where alone it is to be found.
 
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tulipbee

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So then it useless to preach the gospel then if it is all God. In fact preaching the gospel to an audience that they can be saved would be a lie because some of them may be destined to be unsaved. For no doubt the Calvinist preacher is preaching so as to convince people. No doubt Calvinists who write here do so in a way that they can convince others. But why even try if it is all God who makes a person see the truth?


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We're instructed to preach anyway without bossing God with embarrassing questions such as yours. God can use the word as part of his elections.
 
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GillDouglas

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Not all Calvinists believe the same thing. Why are you assuming your belief is the only one? Also, I have heard many Calvinists say it is in regeneration that one is first saved before hearing the gospel.


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If you wish to accurately explain, describe, debate what Calvinist believe you should probably look to the doctrines for guidance.

For example: "As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereof. Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed in Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due time; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation" - Westminster Confession
 
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ToBeLoved

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So you are saved by the work of your faith? Are you then also kept by that faith? Well for me, I am saved and kept by the One who called to me and renewed me. I have hope in Him, not my faith.
It is silly to call faith a work.

That just shows how little some understand faith.
 
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Many people cannot even express their own thoughts clearly. So the thought that it is good for us to talk in parables in only more confusing and will lead to confusion. just as your previous example of what you called a parable, that was not really one.

It is hard enough many times to understand what one is saying in writing. Parables are usually spoken. I'm not sure this would even be the best medium for a parable if we were smart enough to come up with them. Writing only is a hard communication medium that is dependant on how well people write.
I do not see how it is difficult to communicate in a parable. It is actually rather easy to do. You find something in the real world that matches up with your beliefs. For example: Conditional Salvation can be demonstrated by looking at an alcoholic who desires to become sober by him checking himself into a program to be free of his addiction. In time, the alcoholic who desires strongly to become alcohol free will be sober (over enough proper treatment). The analogy here is that being addicted to alcohol is the sin that they overcome. However, in OSAS, one does not believe that becoming sober (i.e. to stop sinning) is possible in this life.


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nobdysfool

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You are not fooling anyone. If for some reason, making a parable would help to prove OSAS in some way, you would be all for defending for believers in using parables. The ONLY reason you are against seeing how the Canaanite woman used a parable herself is because you know it will refute your belief of OSAS. It's the ONLY reason. ...


HOW MANY TIMES MUST YOU BE TOLD UNTIL IT SINKS IN, NEITHER JESUS OR THE WOMAN WAS SPEAKING IN PARABLES. HE USED A METAPHOR, AND SHE ANSWERED WITH ANOTHER METAPHOR!
 
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If you wish to accurately explain, describe, debate what Calvinist believe you should probably look to the doctrines for guidance.

For example: "As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereof. Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed in Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due time; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation" - Westminster Confession
Why would I need to learn something that I believe to be unbiblical? Every Calvinist has a different view on Calvinism. I am too busy with studying God's Word amongst other things. If you want to tell me what you believe then just tell it to me all of it up front. But most people are not usually straight forward in what they believe. I have nothing to hide in what I believe. Thus, why a person can go to my profile and click on a link to my statement of faith here. Can other folks here say the same?


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nobdysfool

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Not all Calvinists believe the same thing. Why are you assuming your belief is the only one? Also, I have heard many Calvinists say it is in regeneration that one is first saved before hearing the gospel.


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No one I know has ever said that. what you are doing is reinterpreting what you heard some one say (or thought you heard them say), and running it through your own filter. You don't know what you're talking about.
 
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HOW MANY TIMES MUST YOU BE TOLD UNTIL IT SINKS IN, NEITHER JESUS OR THE WOMAN WAS SPEAKING IN PARABLES. HE USED A METAPHOR, AND SHE ANSWERED WITH ANOTHER METAPHOR!

It doesn't matter what you call it. Metaphor or Parable. Just make one. I do not care what you call it. But for your information, Dictionary.com says this,

"a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parable

And the origin of the word defines it as a,

"comparison"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=parable


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nobdysfool

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Why would I need to learn something that I believe to be unbiblical? Every Calvinist has a different view on Calvinism. I am too busy with studying God's Word amongst other things. If you want to tell me what you believe then just tell it to me all of it up front. But most people are not usually straight forward in what they believe. I have nothing to hide in what I believe. Thus, why a person can go to my profile and click on a link to my statement of faith here. ....

Your reason for believing it to be unbiblcal is what? What you heard someone say? That's pretty stupid. You don't know what you're opposing, but you've already decided it's not right, so you see no need to investigate. Assume much?
 
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nobdysfool

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It doesn't matter what you call it. Metaphor or Parable. Just make one. I do not care what you call it.
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No, for the simple reason that it's not necessary. It is a diversion on your part. I don't play that game.
 
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No one I know has ever said that. what you are doing is reinterpreting what you heard some one say (or thought you heard them say), and running it through your own filter. You don't know what you're talking about.
Okay, so you believe that salvation is based on man choosing to accepting the gospel of their own free will then?

If not, then what is the actual alternative in them being saved according to you and others here?


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Your reason for believing it to be unbiblcal is what? What you heard someone say? That's pretty stupid. You don't know what you're opposing, but you've already decided it's not right, so you see no need to investigate. Assume much?
A cursory investigation of reading testimonies of what ex Calvinists believe and what they say Calvinism is about gives me a pretty good idea what is saying at it's core. Oh, and there are different versions of Calvinism. So when I speak of one problem of Calvinism that may not agree with your Calvinism belief, that does not mean another Calvinist does not believe what I have heard them say they believed.

I mean, wouldn't you find it as interesting challenge to your faith if you read the testimonies of ex Calvinists?


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nobdysfool

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Okay, so you believe that salvation is based on man choosing to accepting the gospel of their own free will then?

If not, then what is the actual alternative in them being saved according to you and others here?....

If you can't refrain from assuming something that isn't what I said, then I am not going to waste my time trying to answer you, only to be met with yet more inaccurate trashing of a doctrine that you clearly and blatantly don't know, and seem to revel in your ignorance of it, as though it were some sort of badge of honor to be that ignorant. Pearls, swine, I'm sure you get the reference...
 
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We're instructed to preach anyway without bossing God with embarrassing questions such as yours. God can use the word as part of his elections.
Again, it is absolutely unnecessary if God saves us some other kind of way.


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If you can't refrain from assuming something that isn't what I said, then I am not going to waste my time trying to answer you, only to be met with yet more inaccurate trashing of a doctrine that you clearly and blatantly don't know, and seem to revel in your ignorance of it, as though it were some sort of badge of honor to be that ignorant. Pearls, swine, I'm sure you get the reference...
Actually, "pearls to the swine" is in reference to telling an unbeliever about how God has worked in your life or in sharing a deep truth with an atheist. Such a thing is too precious to do so with folk who have no appreciation for God's Word and His goodness. Also, Swines are associated with uncleanness (Which would be sin). Meaning, the swine would be in reference to a sinful person who is an unbeleiver. For the prodigal son had eaten with the pigs during his time of riotous and sinful living (away from the father). So this saying does not apply to believers who are walking uprightly with the Lord.

But if you would like to explain your beliefs on Calvinism in how a person is saved in a detailed step by step process, that would be nice. Thank you.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.


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@Jason0047 @FreeGrace2 @ToBeLoved All men, in their natural state (assuming any one of you believes in the doctrine of Original Sin), are rebels against God; and though an unregenerate man might do many things which the law of God requires, which would commend them as godly men among men, does nothing with reference to God. A man who does 'good' in the sight of men lack the principle that alone makes him righteous in the sight of God. These virtues of the unregenerate man are fleeting and fading flowers, only temporary. Those unregenerate who possess such 'faith' is like the seed which falls upon the stony soil, springing up with promise of fruit, yet soon withers because it has no root. Salvation is ABSOLUTELY AND SOLELY OF GRACE!!!

Unregenerate men are generally offended by this idea of the true state of mankind, and his inability to bring himself to a saved state. He readily accepts any theory which makes him even partly independent of God; wishing to be the master of his fate and the captain of his soul. Yet the moral condition of men in this fallen world is proof enough that a man, in all his claims of 'good' are unfounded, and his only hope is in the sovereign grace of God Himself. Until he is brought to feel it, to truly know his condition and the means by which he is to be saved, he will never seek help where alone it is to be found.
I am getting the strong impression that a wicked depraved person cannot hear and even accept the gospel without some kind of regeneration first. This lets me know that it is not the gospel that saves them but it is some kind of regeneration first. Am I correct?


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