Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Marvin Knox]

So then it useless to preach the gospel then if it is all God. In fact preaching the gospel to an audience that they can be saved would be a lie because some of them may be destined to be unsaved. For no doubt the Calvinist preacher is preaching so as to convince people. No doubt Calvinists who write here do so in a way that they can convince others. But why even try if it is all God who makes a person see the truth?
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How about because we are commanded to?

You do believe in keeping His commandments don't you?

Oh - that's right. Your salvation depends on how well you do at keeping them.

 

[Job8]

For I know that if parables were to help the case for OSAS, somebody here would no doubt use it to back up their belief in it.

Not sure how this issue entered into the discussion, but the parables of the wheat and tares, the good fish and the bad fish, actually support the eternal security of the believer. Believers are clearly identified and so are non-believers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No it is from the Book of Romans - and I do take it literally.


"There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;" Romans 3:11

This sounds a lot like certain verses in Romans 3 for me,

“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Psalms‬ ‭14).


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[Marvin Knox]

I only had 5 minutes then, so I did only respond to one thing.
However, I do not appreciate you jumping to conclusions from my post that I was avoiding the other verses, because as I said earlier, I was on a work break.

It seems to me that above you are asking not to have your beliefs misrepresented, but the other half of your post is drawing conclusions about me, which I find ironic.

To ask questions of me would have been easy, but instead you draw your own conclusions. Then you finish your post about how people just need to ask and not misrepresent you, but that is exactly what you did to me. So you may be reaping what you sow in that.

Please do not tell me what you think about why I am doing anything. That makes for a bad conversation where I am constantly correcting incorrect assumptions and it is not a righteous thing to do.

This was hardly our first go round now was it?

In fact you first started in this thread with an emotional outburst concerning the horrible unfairness of the beliefs of Calvinists.

I was hardly taking a stab in the dark at what your emotional status was concerning Calvinism. You have made that abundantly clear from the very start.

 

[Marvin Knox]

That in Calvinist believe God must do something to a person to make them open to God.

That is correct. He does.

However, the Word tells us that we come to God in faith and we RECEIVE faith by hearing the Word of God.

No one comes to God on their own. No one understands God on their own.

"There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;" Romans 3:11

Why on earth are you playing ping-pong with us when you do not agree with what they do? Seems to me you are injecting yourself into the conversation as some kind of mediator and to 'explain' things.

Why would we need that? Each side can ask each other questions directly.

Several reasons - first and foremost is because you yourself first engaged me with the assumption that I was a Calvinist.

Second - because most people make the same assumption that you did. It seems impossible that someone who believes in the absolute sovereignty of God concerning everything that happens in the universe can be referred to as anything but a Calvinist.

Third - because I have a great many common interests theologically with full Calvinists.

Fourth - because most of these conversation start with an attack and defense of a certain doctrine which I hold in common with Calvinists. The term Calvinism usually comes in after the conversation has been going for a few posts.

Fifth - because I'm a heck of a lot better at defending certain of their beliefs than are most full on Calvinists if I do say so myself.

 

[Marvin Knox]

No doubt. But God being "at work" doesn't equate to regeneration.

Apparently you have a window into the spirit world that I do not have.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This was hardly our first go round now was it?

In fact you first started in this thread with an emotional outburst concerning the horrible unfairness of the beliefs of Calvinists.

I was hardly taking a stab in the dark at what your emotional status was concerning Calvinism. You have made that abundantly clear from the very start.

So then you feel perfectly justified in drawing your own conclusions and misrepresenting others based on how you interpret and understand their previous posts?

That's just an excuse. You are also bearing false witness against your neighbor and then making excuses when they call you on it.

Why not just keep to the facts and leave what you think someone else says out of it, unless you are looking for clarification on their point. It is not the way to hold a conversation and is getting old really quick.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Apparently you have a window into the spirit world that I do not have.

Regeneration is specific to pre-salvation for the Calvinist. However what FreeGrace2 was saying that God being 'at work' does not mean regeneration (pre salvation).

Then you say that he has a different understanding of spiritual things than you do.

But pre-salvation is very specific point in time. You are talking about overall, before and after salvation.

I think @FreeGrace2 is right. Why not pin-point it down to the specific period of time that Calvinists are referring to. That would be much better than saying that whenever the Spirit works in someone as a blank statement. Maybe try to stay on topic using the same criteria as the person you replied to.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No one comes to God on their own. No one understands God on their own.

"There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;" Romans 3:11

Well that is not true. Man comes to God in faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and the gospel. Hearing the Word of God we are drawn to Him through the gospel.

 

[Marvin Knox]

.............Why not just keep to the facts and leave what you think someone else says out of it, unless you are looking for clarification on their point. It is not the way to hold a conversation and is getting old really quick.

Fair enough.

I expect that there will never again be any comments on the "fairness" of God and such in conversations we have about predestination, election, regeneration, effectual calling, God's passing by some sinners while special grace is given to others, or any other Reformed doctrine.

It seems to me that you are the one who brings these emotional values into the discussion.

But you can certainly hold me to it and I'll do the same for you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not sure how this issue entered into the discussion, but the parables of the wheat and tares, the good fish and the bad fish, actually support the eternal security of the believer. Believers are clearly identified and so are non-believers.

Tares can look like wheat sometimes, but they have no value like the crop of wheat. Jesus defines false prophets for us by the fact that they have bad fruit (i.e. No value) (Matthew 7). Peter also says these false prophets are described as having eyes full of adultery who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

But I was looking more for a parable that you can make yourself personally so as to illustrate the goodness of OSAS.

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[Marvin Knox]

Regeneration is specific to pre-salvation for the Calvinist. However what FreeGrace2 was saying that God being 'at work' does not mean regeneration (pre salvation).

Then you say that he has a different understanding of spiritual things than you do.

But pre-salvation is very specific point in time. You are talking about overall, before and after salvation.

I think @FreeGrace2 is right. Why not pin-point it down to the specific period of time that Calvinists are referring to. That would be much better than saying that whenever the Spirit works in someone as a blank statement. Maybe try to stay on topic using the same criteria as the person you replied to.

I was very much on the topic that FreeGrace2 and I were talking about.

I have no idea exactly how spiritual regeneration works except that it involves our spirit being put into contact with the Holy Spirit of God again.

FreeGrace2 said that the Holy Spirit's opening the heart of Lydia was not regeneration. I told him that he must have a lot more insight into how these things work than I have been given in the scriptures.

Well that is not true. Man comes to God in faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and the gospel. Hearing the Word of God we are drawn to Him through the gospel.

Faith does come by hearing the Word of God.

The Bible says that we are drawn to Christ by God Himself. The Bible says that those, and only those, who are given to the Son specifically by the Father and are drawn to Him by the Father will come to Him.

I believe that that has to happen through the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father.

Apparently the Father does not do that for everyone on earth - as much as you or even I would like it to be so.

 

[GillDouglas]

No. It is faith that brings a person to Christ and faith comes by hearing the gospel and the Word of God. That is why the Great Commission is to preach the gospel.

So you are saved by the work of your faith? Are you then also kept by that faith? Well for me, I am saved and kept by the One who called to me and renewed me. I have hope in Him, not my faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How about because we are commanded to?

You do believe in keeping His commandments don't you?

Oh - that's right. Your salvation depends on how well you do at keeping them.

Then what you believe is a contradiction. It doesn't matter if you preach the gospel because God just saves people despite the gospel. There is no power in that kind of gospel because it ultimately doesn't matter if one preaches that type of gospel in the long run. However, the Scriptures say the preaching of the cross is to perish foolishness.


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[Bible Highlighter]

So you are saved by the work of your faith? Are you then also kept by that faith? Well for me, I am saved and kept by the One who called to me and renewed me. I have hope in Him, not my faith.

The Bible says without faith, it is impossible to please Him. For we are saved by grace THRU faith.

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[Marvin Knox]

.....I was looking more for a parable that you can make yourself personally so as to illustrate the goodness of OSAS. ...

I supplied a rather lengthy parable that illustrated the "goodness" of OSAS.

You said it didn't illustrate the goodness of OSAS while everyone else said that it did perfectly.

If I were Job8 I wouldn't bother writing a parable for you since you'll just reject it anyway.

What's with all of this parable silliness anyway?

Seems like after a dozen or so pages of trying to get someone to write you a parable you'd drop that particular angle.

 

[GillDouglas]

The Bible says without faith, it is impossible to please Him. For we are saved by grace THRU faith.

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Saved BY grace through faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I supplied a rather lengthy parable that illustrated the "goodness" of OSAS.

You said it didn't illustrate the goodness of OSAS while everyone else said that it did perfectly.

If I were Job8 I wouldn't bother writing a parable for you since you'll just reject it anyway.

What's with all of this parable silliness anyway?

Seems like after a dozen or so pages of trying to get someone to write you a parable you'd drop that particular angle.

I told you WHY the parable didn't work. Unless I missed your post, I did not see you coming up with a defense against the error I pointed out in your parable.


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[Marvin Knox]

Then what you believe is a contradiction. It doesn't matter if you preach the gospel because God just saves people despite the gospel. There is no power in that kind of gospel because it ultimately doesn't matter if one preaches that type of gospel in the long run. However, the Scriptures say the preaching of the cross is to perish foolishness. ...

I wish you'd just ask what I believe about God's justification of people through the faith that comes through hearing the gospel preached to them.

What you just said is a total falsehood concerning my beliefs and those of Calvinists as well.

No one that I know of from my side of the isle believes that God saves people without the faith that comes through hearing the gospel. No one links regeneration directly to justification. To say otherwise is a falsehood.

Stop misrepresenting our beliefs. (IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'VE BEEN ASKED TO STOP THAT A FEW TIMES BEFORE.)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Saved BY grace through faith.

Yes. That is what I said. An adult who is aware of right and wrong cannot be saved without faith.

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