Logical Problems with Calvinism

[tulipbee]

Such as?

If the plain clothes men are cops. There are cops! You won't tell the difference if you keep using "if" that way

 

[FreeGrace2]

If the plain clothes men are cops. There are cops! You won't tell the difference if you keep using "if" that way

Which is why I don't use "if" that way.

 

[EmSw]

I'm glad to tell you who are saved. Those who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. And only those.

lol I haven't manipulated anything.

It's those who think that salvation can be lost by a variety of ways who manipulate or at least fail to understand Scripture.

So, you believe liars and those with no truth within them are saved? How are people saved without truth?

 

[GillDouglas]

So, you believe liars and those with no truth within them are saved? How are people saved without truth?

Liars, some yes. Unregenerated heart or no Truth as you say, no. No man is saved unless God has conditioned them to receive the Truth.

 

[tulipbee]

Which is why I don't use "if" that way.

You use "if" as God is waiting for the impossibles. That makes God look stupid

 

[tulipbee]

Liars, some yes. Unregenerated heart or no Truth as you say, no. No man is saved unless God has conditioned them to receive the Truth.

We have to let unregenerateds be unregenerated. It's God's plan. Its sad to watch atheists and agnostics try to make themselves Christian to benefit them. The arminians teaches them how to get away with it through self power.

 

[GillDouglas]

We have to let unregenerateds be unregenerated. It's God's plan. Its sad to watch atheists and agnostics try to make themselves Christian to benefit them. The arminians teaches them how to get away with it through self power.

Exactly. Who needs Christ when they can just save themselves through sinless perfectionism?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, you believe liars and those with no truth within them are saved? How are people saved without truth?

Didn't you read my earlier answer to this same question? Here it is again:
"I'm glad to tell you who are saved. Those who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. And only those.

lol I haven't manipulated anything.

It's those who think that salvation can be lost by a variety of ways who manipulate or at least fail to understand Scripture."

What part of this isn't clear?

People are saved, not by what they do, but by what they BELIEVE. The Bible says so.

It is a total waste of time to bring up sins or lifestyle when discussion salvation. Because Christ died for ALL sin. What part of this isn't clear?



But to further clarify this issue, there are many truths in Scripture. Truths about what sin is, truths about what Christ did for all sin, truths about who Christ died for, truth about how to be saved, and so on. So don't act as though there is only one truth.

Yes, Jesus Christ IS the Truth, as He said in John 14:6. But there are many truths about Him.

So, those believers who are liars do not have the truth in them, just as those believers who "say they have no sin" have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. 1 Jn 1:8

Why would anyone assume that a believer in Christ has "all truths"?

If that were true, Paul was just wasting his time writing all his epistles. He wrote them to INSTRUCT believers with truth.

And how many times did Paul write "I would not have you ignorant, brothers"? 4

iow, there are stupid believers, ignorant of the truth. And yet saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Liars, some yes. Unregenerated heart or no Truth as you say, no. No man is saved unless God has conditioned them to receive the Truth.

To be clear, no man is saved until he believes the good news (gospel) of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for them and gives them eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You use "if" as God is waiting for the impossibles. That makes God look stupid

How have I done that? I disagree.

Since God is perfectly omniscient, He already knows all things. Including the ones who will never believe.

But did that stop Jesus from saying this:

"‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality." Rev 2:21

It is clear from this that God still gives people time to repent, EVEN THOUGH He already knows they never will. Or that they REFUSE (NIV) to repent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We have to let unregenerateds be unregenerated. It's God's plan.

No it's not, if you believe the words of Scripture.

Sermon on Mars Hill: “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent" Acts 17:30

"all people everywhere" doesn't just refer to the 'elect'.

Its sad to watch atheists and agnostics try to make themselves Christian to benefit them. The arminians teaches them how to get away with it through self power.

And the Calvinists give them an excuse when they end up in hell: they weren't chosen for heaven. Like the other sinners who were.

 

[Albion]

Since God is perfectly omniscient, He already knows all things. Including the ones who will never believe...But did that stop Jesus from saying this:
"‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality." Rev 2:21

It is clear from this that God still gives people time to repent, EVEN THOUGH He already knows they never will. Or that they REFUSE (NIV) to repent.

Where in there do you find anything about salvation? Maybe that's the crux of the issue that you are trying to have us all focus on.

 

[GillDouglas]

To be clear, no man is saved until he believes the good news (gospel) of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for them and gives them eternal life.

It's certainly part of the rebirth/regeneration, if you will. But just to be clear, no man believes the good news (gospel) of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for them and gives them eternal life until God intercedes and begins the work.

 

[Job8]

But just to be clear, no man believes the good news (gospel) of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for them and gives them eternal life until God intercedes (intervenes) and begins the work.

And the way God intervenes is through the preaching of the Gospel. Please note (Rom 10:13-21):

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

According to Scripture how is faith generated*Q*
Through the preaching of the Word of God (the Gospel). The Holy Spirit is right there using the Word to bring sinners to the Saviour. The Gospel is the *seed* which produces the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25).

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

It is noteworthy that Calvinists dodge or ignore all these Scriptures, and go back to beating their own drum regarding the manner of the New Birth. As the saying goes, they march to a different drummer.

 

[Albion]

And the way God intervenes is through the preaching of the Gospel.

In no way does that counter the statement you're seeking to disprove, however.

That's the method, all right, but it's not the reason the Scriptures will ever make sense or be believed by the hearer. It takes the will of God for that to happen.

 

[GillDouglas]

And the way God intervenes is through the preaching of the Gospel. Please note (Rom 10:13-21):

The preaching of the Gospel sounds like something done by men, doesn't it? I do not doubt that God has used the speaking/reading of the Word in part of the saving process but it is in fact the work of the Holy Spirit that brings a man to spiritual life. The Bible is otherwise a sealed book to the deaf, blind, and spiritually dead man.

 

[sdowney717]

And the way God intervenes is through the preaching of the Gospel. Please note (Rom 10:13-21):

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

According to Scripture how is faith generated*Q*
Through the preaching of the Word of God (the Gospel). The Holy Spirit is right there using the Word to bring sinners to the Saviour. The Gospel is the *seed* which produces the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25).

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

It is noteworthy that Calvinists dodge or ignore all these Scriptures, and go back to beating their own drum regarding the manner of the New Birth. As the saying goes, they march to a different drummer.

Your missing a clue in these 2 scriptures.


16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Why have they not obeyed the gospel?
Some have heard the gospel and not believed, so go to where Paul quotes from Isaiah to find an answer.

Isaiah 53 New King James Version (NKJV)
53 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,

Assuredly Isaiah 53 is about our saviour Christ. And the answer you need to see is
'And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?'

Meaning those who believe the report have had the power of the Lord revealed to them by HIM. Arm here means an action, God has done something for them.
Otherwise they will not believe in Christ.
This power God exercises teaching them about Christ, regenerating them so that they are teachable and have the ears to hear what God says.

 

[Job8]

Why have they not obeyed the gospel?

According to Calvinism (the Westminister Confession), because God had already consigned them to Hell: By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

According to Scripture, they simply hardened their hearts even after they heard the truth. Please note carefully (Acts 7:51-54): Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Even here we see a hardening of hearts -- *and they gnashed on him with their teeth* instead of repentance. Paul had the same experience with the majority of the Jews throughout the Roman Empire. Calvinism teaches that God had already consigned them to Hell. But they consigned themselves to Hell by rejecting Christ.

How can God possibly consign the majority of Israel to Hell *Q* That is such a laughable proposition that no one with an ounce of Scripture knowledge would believe it.

 

[Job8]

The preaching of the Gospel sounds like something done by men, doesn't it? I do not doubt that God has used the speaking/reading of the Word in part of the saving process but it is in fact the work of the Holy Spirit that brings a man to spiritual life. The Bible is otherwise a sealed book to the deaf, blind, and spiritually dead man.

I already mentioned that the Holy Spirit works on the hearts, minds, and souls of sinners while the Gospel is preached (John 16:7-11). But it is only those who repent and believe who receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is only after He enters the soul that sinners are born again (Acts 2:38): Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[GillDouglas]

I already mentioned that the Holy Spirit works on the hearts, minds, and souls of sinners while the Gospel is preached (John 16:7-11). But it is only those who repent and believe who receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is only after He enters the soul that sinners are born again (Acts 2:38): Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

By this you are saying that men save themselves, and that is simply not the case. It is of course those who believe that repent, but that goes without saying. It is not because of their belief that they are saved however, but it is because of God's grace.