Logical Problems with Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

Again, seals have been broken in the Bible. Even seals made by God have been broken. We see this in Revelation. The breaking of the seals which releases God's Wrath during the End Times.

We know the Spirit of God had departed from Saul and he was given an evil spirit instead.


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Saul was not given the Holy Spirit as part of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ in which the Holy Spirit is given as a seal of our inheritance in Christ.

Saul was under the Old Covenant.

Let's get real Jason. Jesus is specific about the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant. The INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit within those saved.

You just do not have the understanding of spiritual things. Wonder what that means? Hmmmm....

 

[ToBeLoved]

Such nonsense is removed when one realizes that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE, a PROMISE for the day of redemption.

So tell me how God breaks His promise and allows or breaks His GUARANTEED seal which is FOR the day of redemption?

The seal, iow, is guaranteed or promised for the day of redemption. This seal CANNOT be broken in the meantime.


There was no universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT. Your examples fails. Even David prayed for the Holy Spirit not to depart.


Well, there you go!! And that goes for His seal of the Holy Spirit, which is guaranteed and promised for the day of redemption.


What does any of this have to do with God's promise for the day of redemption?? Can you cite any condition relating to the sealing with the Holy Spirit in Eph 1:13,14?


This is ridiculous. Context refers to what is IN context with a verse. iow, the passage where the verse is found.


Another flat out failure to understand my views. No, God is NEVER "totally fine" or even "partially fine" with disobedience and unfaithfulness. All you've done here is demonstrate just how much you've failed to grasp my view.

And the ONLY believers in heaven who will be rewarded are those who were faithful and obedience on earth. The rebellious ones will NOT be rewarded. Why do you continue to fail to grasp this?

Do you notice that everything that is 'spiritual' is what is not understood by some?
There is only one way to understand 'spiritual' things.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you notice that everything that is 'spiritual' is what is not understood by some?
There is only one way to understand 'spiritual' things.

Yep.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I really do not see how you both cannot see what is plainly written in Scripture.
I believe I made a pretty solid and convincing argument with God's Word.
As a result, I am not so sure my continuing to show what His Word says again is going to help.
Then again, I just plant the seeds; And it is God that gives the increase.
In any event, you are both in my prayers for God's love to open your eyes to see the light of the Scriptures on this matter.

May God's love, and peace be unto you both.
And please be well.


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[ToBeLoved]

I really do not see how you both cannot see what is plainly written in Scripture.
I thought I made a pretty convincing argument with God's Word.
Then again, I just plant the seeds; And it is God that gives the increase.
In any event, you are both in my prayers for God's love to open your eyes to see the light of the Scriptures on this matter.

May God's love, and peace be unto you both.
And please be well.


....

Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you on spiritual things.

It is only with the Holy Spirit that one can go from a lack of understanding to an understanding. That is why Jesus gifted us with the indwelling Holy Spirit, God with us.

I will be praying for you Jason.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you on spiritual things.

It is only with the Holy Spirit that one can go from a lack of understanding to an understanding. That is why Jesus gifted us with the indwelling Holy Spirit, God with us.

I will be praying for you Jason.

Please do not be offended, but you honestly cannot expect me to read any kind advice that you are providing.
Even if your advice happens to line up with the Bible, I do not believe you have any authority whatsoever to help me.
For you have to know that I do not believe your belief is Biblical in any way.

In any event, I hope you understand.
May God bless you.
And may His love shine upon you greatly.


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[Bible Highlighter]

The Word tells us that without the Holy Spirit, man does not understand the spiritual things of God. They read the Word without spiritual insight.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things

Maybe you do not have spiritual ears to hear? Now that makes sense to me and is according to the Word of God.

Please do not patronize me. Such a thing only hinders your argument and it does not help prove your case in any way on this topic.

In any event, may His love be upon you greatly today.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You've born false witness against others on other threads. When I pointed this out to you, what did you say?

You have also been unforgiving, so do not act perfect Jason. You are only fooling yourself and if you do not speak truth than the truth of God is not in you.

Let's get real.

In most cases, I generally find out if I have placed a belief upon a person that they did not actually believe. Usually, when I have misunderstood people in the past, they bring that point up about what they really actually believe and I apologize. It is not often that I am wrong about me claiming in what a person believes by what they say. But yes, it can happen. I am only human and I go off the information that is given to me by what they write down on a public forum. Words can be imprecise instruments of communication. It is not like we can mind meld or anything; And it is not like I am intentionally trying to misrepresent what a person believes, either. So if people feel I misrepresented what they actually believe, then they need to talk to me (either by PM or openly here on the public forums).

But in my experience, when a person believes holiness (that God works thru the believer) is not a requirement for a believer's right standing with God, the approval of some kind of sin and still be saved doctrine is the only alternative left.

Now, please take note that I do have a close friend who believes in OSAS Lite.
This is the belief that a believer is once saved always saved, but it only applies to those believers who live a holy life.
If not, then such an individual was never born again.

Granted, I do not believe this belief is Biblical, either.
But I can at least call him my brother because he stands up for what is good and right.
There is no excuses made for one to think they can do evil in God's name and be rewarded by gaining entrance into Heaven despite such evil.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I really do not see how you both cannot see what is plainly written in Scripture.

lol

I believe I made a pretty solid and convincing argument with God's Word.

lol

As a result, I am not so sure my continuing to show what His Word says again is going to help.
Then again, I just plant the seeds; And it is God that gives the increase.
In any event, you are both in my prayers for God's love to open your eyes to see the light of the Scriptures on this matter.

May God's love, and peace be unto you both.
And please be well.....

Scripture is very clear; those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection, no less) have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. 1 Jn 1:8, 10

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please do not be offended, but you honestly cannot expect me to read any kind advice that you are providing.

lol

Even if your advice happens to line up with the Bible, I do not believe you have any authority whatsoever to help me.

Wow. This is revealing. "even if…"

For you have to know that I do not believe your belief is Biblical in any way.

We know what Scripture says about those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection); they have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. That directly refers to your view.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

lol, lol

My belief that you cannot see what the Scriptures say on this matter should not be laughed at. I am truly being honest, and sincere with the both of you. I also believe by the Spirit of God that you are not seeing the Scriptures for what they are really saying, too. I also do not believe my defense of the Scriptures should be laughed at, either. Such a response is un-Christ like in my opinion.

Scripture is very clear; those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection, no less) have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. 1 Jn 1:8, 10

Based off two verses taken out of context, my friend. The rest of the epistle makes no mention of any kind of defense against Sinless Perfectionism. On the contrary, the surrounding verses teach Sinless Perfectionism because John says for us to: "sin not." (1 John 2:1). John also says that if any man does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).

One cannot keep God's commandments (1 John 2:4) and also break them at the same time by claiming to always have sin in their life (1 John 1:8). Also, you cannot tell someone to "sin not" if one is always going to sin as a part of 1 John 1:8, too. The Scriptures say, sin is trangression of the Law (1 John 3:4). One is either sinning or they are not sinning. One is either obeying God's commandments or they are not obeying God's Commandments. Either you believe 1 John 2:4 all the way in what it says or you don't believe it. For it does not make sense to say you are keeping God's Commandments and also always claiming to have sin. It is an illogical contradiction. One is either living holy or one is living in sin. A person cannot do both. For Christ said no man can serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other.


...

 

[EmSw]

We know what Scripture says about those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection); they have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. That directly refers to your view.

Do you really believe this FG2? John says those who do not keep His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

lol

What I had written was not intended to be funny or to be laughed at. I meant what I said sincerely.

Wow. This is revealing. "even if…"

I do not believe God and His Word agrees with a sin and still be saved doctrine. For if such a thing were true, then that would mean God would have to condone a believer's evil. For if a believer taught that they could do evil and be rewarded by gaining entrance into God's Kingdom, it would speak very badly against the good character of the Lord our God. For God is good; And in Him is no darkness at all. Hence, why I believe that anyone who teaches such a doctrine does not have any kind of authority to speak on the behalf of God to me (so as to give me any kind of approved of divine advice).

Side Note:

Oh, and God chastening the believer does not undo the damage done by preaching a sin and still be saved doctrine, either. If a believing child is led into sin (with the thinking they are saved) because of an OSAS preacher, then I imagine Jesus would have some words to say to this man concerning a millstone. In addition, what does chastening even supposed to do for the believer? Is it to get them to stop sinning? Well, that does not make any sense to the OSAS proponent because they deny Sinless Perfectionism or that a believer can ever stop sinning. For one of the OSAS's banner flags is an out of context understanding of 1 John 1:8. So what does chastening do then if one must claim they always have sin?

Yet, the Scriptures say,

"They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness"
(Hebrews 12:10) (New International Version).

"But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8).​

We know what Scripture says about those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection); they have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. That directly refers to your view.

Sinless Perfectionism is believing and taking action so as to "sin not." These are the very two words uttered by John himself in 1 John 2:1. He says, "sin not." That is what Sinless Perfectionism means. Jesus said something similar. For Jesus says to the woman who was caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." Jesus says to the man he healed to: "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon thee." "Sin no more" is what Jesus said. And I believe those very words He said to us. That is what I am telling you to do, as well. "Sin no more." For it is what Jesus said. So if you are against the words "sin no more", or "sin not", then you are against the very plain words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle John. For Jesus even said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Why is the Father perfect? Well, think about it, my friend. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.


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[nobdysfool]

Constant mis-characterization of those who don't agree with your false doctrine of sinless perfection makes you a hypocrite, because in mis-characterizing them, you are telling lies about what they believe. Lying is a sin. Therefore, you are not sinless, and your false doctrine of sinless perfection is proven wrong, by your own words.

The words "sinless perfection" mean exactly what they say, not your false spin on the term to try and avoid your own hypocrisy. If you believe in sinless perfection, you are saying that you have ceased from all sin, and are therefore perfect, by your own efforts. I have just shown that you are sinning, and therefore not perfect, and thus, not sinless.

Those of us who oppose your false doctrine do not say that sin does not matter, or that we can sin with impunity, or that we can sin and still be right with God. On the contrary, we do believe in confession of sins, as they occur, and being right with God and following His commandments. None of us deny those things, as you falsely assert. What we don't believe is that every time we sin, we have become unsaved and need to be saved again. All because of God's Grace. If we sin, God's Grace brings us to repentance, confession, and a restoring of our fellowship with God. So your mis-characterization os us is nothing but lies and falsehoods, trying to tear others down to elevate yourself. You have a prideful, unteachable spirit about you that isn't from God.

You need to repent of your wickedness, and get right with God, and a public admittance of your sin would be a good idea, as well. You are not telling the truth, so your sinless perfection is a sham and a falsehood.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Constant mis-characterization of those who don't agree with your false doctrine of sinless perfection makes you a hypocrite, because in mis-characterizing them, you are telling lies about what they believe. Lying is a sin. Therefore, you are not sinless, and your false doctrine of sinless perfection is proven wrong, by your own words.

First, Paul says, "Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6). By the way you speak, I do not get that impression, my friend. So I would appreciate it if you talk to me kindly and with respect and stick to the Scriptures. Second, I do not believe I am telling a lie about what people believe here, either. People have made the claim here that they will always have sin in their life because of 1 John 1:8. Third, I am not denying that believers cannot struggle with sin and confess such sin so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. But this leads us to what John says to: "sin not." (1 John 2:1). This leads us to what John says: "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).

The words "sinless perfection" mean exactly what they say, not your false spin on the term to try and avoid your own hypocrisy. If you believe in sinless perfection, you are saying that you have ceased from all sin, and are therefore perfect, by your own efforts. I have just shown that you are sinning, and therefore not perfect, and thus, not sinless.

Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." I do not see how "sin no more" equates with one to keep on sinning. Oh, and yes; I do not abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto spiritual death. Such sins would be murder, hate, theft, adultery, idolatry, and drunkenness. Paul says those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. John says those who do such sins will face the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Paul says we used to be sinners as a part of our old life, but we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3) (Ephesians 4:17-27) (Colossians 3:5-10).

Also, let me ask you. Do you believe you can stop sinning for 5 minutes? How about for 1 hour? How about 1 day? Does not logic dictate that what you can do for 5 minutes you can do for even longer? Do you always sin while brushing your teeth? I say this because many have claimed that 1 John 1:8 is a refutation of Sinless Perfectionism by the fact that 1 John 1:8 is saying that a believer is never without sin.

Those of us who oppose your false doctrine do not say that sin does not matter, or that we can sin with impunity, or that we can sin and still be right with God. On the contrary, we do believe in confession of sins, as they occur, and being right with God and following His commandments. None of us deny those things, as you falsely assert.

But how can you follow His commandments if you also break them at the same time? John says we are either obeying His Commandments or we are disobeying His commandments in 1 John 2:3-4. Also, when the OSAS proponent claims they always have sin as a per 1 John 1:8, they are sinning without impunity. The purpose of chastening is not punishment but it is correction so as to lead a person back to holiness and right living and not to remain in one's sins. For chastening cannot be a form of punishment because both believers and unbelievers share the same harships of this life. True punishment and reward is in the after-life for a person.

What we don't believe is that every time we sin, we have become unsaved and need to be saved again. All because of God's Grace. If we sin, God's Grace brings us to repentance, confession, and a restoring of our fellowship with God. So your mis-characterization os us is nothing but lies and falsehoods, trying to tear others down to elevate yourself. You have a prideful, unteachable spirit about you that isn't from God.

Okay, so are you saying that a believer can not sin by the fact that He can be restored to fellowship with God again in holiness? Are you saying it is possible for a believer to stop sinning?

You need to repent of your wickedness, and get right with God, and a public admittance of your sin would be a good idea, as well. You are not telling the truth, so your sinless perfection is a sham and a falsehood.

No dear sir. I believe you are the one that needs to rethink what you believe and I sincerely believe you should to pray to the Lord about it. I say this because we both know God would never allow one of His people to think they can sin and still be saved. It doesn't work like that. God is good; And there is no darkness in Him at all.

In any event, may God's love shine upon.
And may His peace, and goodness rest upon you in all things.
For I am only wishing nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus.
So I will be praying for you.


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[FreeGrace2]

My belief that you cannot see what the Scriptures say on this matter should not be laughed at.

Your beliefs, since they are not Scriptural, are laughable. But really, it's quite sad. Especially since 1 Jn 1:8 DIRECTLY addresses your own claims. And refutes.

I am truly being honest, and sincere with the both of you.

Sincerity and $2.10 will get you a cup of coffee. Nothing more. People have been sincerely wrong since Adam.

I also believe by the Spirit of God that you are not seeing the Scriptures for what they are really saying, too.

The reality is that you are the one not seeing what the Word clearly says.

I also do not believe my defense of the Scriptures should be laughed at, either. Such a response is un-Christ like in my opinion.

Problem is, you've not defended your views from Scripture.

Remember what 1 Jn 1:8 says: those who claim sinless perfection (say they have no sin) have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

You push a theology of sinless perfection and defend it. So, that means you yourself must say that you have no sin.

Your view is self deceived and has no truth in it.

Based off two verses taken out of context, my friend. The rest of the epistle makes no mention of any kind of defense against Sinless Perfectionism.

The charge of being "out of context" is an easy one to make against anything. However, since that is your charge, please prove it from the Scripture. The fact that the epistle "makes no mention...against sinless perfectionism" is immaterial. FACTS are FACTS.

Those who claim sinless perfection have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

On the contrary, the surrounding verses teach Sinless Perfectionism because John says for us to: "sin not." (1 John 2:1).

Nope. Of course we are commanded to not sin. No one would argue that. But such a command does NOT teach or support the untruth of sinless perfection. Believers are simply NOT to sin. Period. However, just look at the REST of 1 Jn 2:1, which again refutes your notions:

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

OK, let's break this down:
the phrase "so that you MAY NOT sin" doesn't even suggest that one will cease from sin. And it's in the subjunctive mood, which is the mood of probability. There is a HUGE difference between "will not sin" and "may not sin".

Second, he continues with the statement, "and if anyone sins". Showing that this possibility is real and the solution is found in our Advocate, Jesus Christ. Given what he already wrote in ch 1, which was about fellowship with the Father and Son, and the issue of confession, the solution to our sin is to confess it. And we will be cleansed, NOT SAVED AGAIN.

So, 1 Jn 1:8 and 10 and 2:1 ALL refute the notions of sinless perfection. And Paul wrote in the PRESENT TENSE in Romans 7 about his own struggle with his sin nature.

John also says that if any man does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).

And he also wrote that those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection) have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. 1:8

One cannot keep God's commandments (1 John 2:4) and also break them at the same time by claiming to always have sin in their life (1 John 1:8).

That verse says nothing like what you claim here.

Also, you cannot tell someone to "sin not" if one is always going to sin as a part of 1 John 1:8, too.

This makes no sense. John wrote 1 John so that believers "MAY NOT SIN". It wasn't a command.

The Scriptures say, sin is trangression of the Law (1 John 3:4). One is either sinning or they are not sinning. One is either obeying God's commandments or they are not obeying God's Commandments. Either you believe 1 John 2:4 all the way in what it says or you don't believe it.

Those who have deceived themselves and don't have the truth in them cannot understand much of God's Word.

For it does not make sense to say you are keeping God's Commandments and also always claiming to have sin.

I guess you'd put Paul in that silly category as well, huh. The FACT is that believers have 2 natures, a sin nature that came from Adam (Romans 5) and a new nature upon regeneration. And these natures are in CONFLICT with each other.

It seems to me that you have no idea that there is a spiritual battle within each believer.

It is an illogical contradiction.

A statement coming from one who has fulfilled 1 Jn 1:8. Self deceived and no truth in them.

One is either living holy or one is living in sin. A person cannot do both.

I agee. And this does NOT support or prove sinless perfection. And Scripture refutes that in 1 Jn 1:8 and 10.

For Christ said no man can serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other....

Again, I agree. And, again, this does NOT support or prove sinless perfection.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"We know what Scripture says about those who say they have no sin (sinless perfection); they have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them. That directly refers to your view."

Do you really believe this FG2?

I believe it because John said so. 1 Jn 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

EmSw, do you believe this?

John says those who do not keep His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them.

I believe that as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What I had written was not intended to be funny or to be laughed at. I meant what I said sincerely.

I've pointed out what sincerity and $2.10 will get one. And many many people have been sincerely wrong.

I do not believe God and His Word agrees with a sin and still be saved doctrine.

The reason is because, according to John's epistle, you have been self deceived and the truth is not in you.

For if such a thing were true, then that would mean God would have to condone a believer's evil.

No, it wouldn't. It means that God as Father disciplines His disobedient children. Please read Heb 12.

For if a believer taught that they could do evil and be rewarded by gaining entrance into God's Kingdom, it would speak very badly against the good character of the Lord our God.

It is mistaken to think that "gaining entrance into God's kingdom is a reward. Rewards are earned. GRACE refutes ANY notion of earning entrance into heaven. So you're wrong out of the gate.

In fact, Scripture teaches that rewards will be forfeited and lost by being disobedient and unfaithful. But that isn't loss of salvation.

For God is good; And in Him is no darkness at all. Hence, why I believe that anyone who teaches such a doctrine does not have any kind of authority to speak on the behalf of God to me (so as to give me any kind of approved of divine advice).

Coming from one who, according to John, is self deceived and the truth is not in him.

Side Note:

Oh, and God chastening the believer does not undo the damage done by preaching a sin and still be saved doctrine, either.

Let's get one thing straight here: no one preaches a "sin and still be saved doctrine", as if teaching that it's ok to sin. It's NOT ok to sin. There are divine consequences for sin. Heb 12 is very clear about that. So please remove that silliness from your skull.

John was clear about this. We are not to sin, but when we do, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, who DIED for all our sins. When we confess our sins, we are cleansed. NOT saved again.

If a believing child is led into sin (with the thinking they are saved) because of an OSAS preacher, then I imagine Jesus would have some words to say to this man concerning a millstone.

Coming from one who is self deceived and the truth is not in them.

In addition, what does chastening even supposed to do for the believer? Is it to get them to stop sinning?

What in the world? Why does a parent chasten their own children? Do you have absolutely zero understanding of how these things work??

[QUTOE] For one of the OSAS's banner flags is an out of context understanding of 1 John 1:8.[/QUOTE]
There is NOTHING out of context in understanding that verse. It is a statement of FACT. And the FACT is that those, like yourself, who claim to have no sin have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

So what does chastening do then if one must claim they always have sin?

Since you admit no clue about what chastening is for, no answer will help you. But why do you think that one "must claim they always have sin"? We all have a sin nature (you included). And we therefore, will continue to sin.

But instead of sinless perfection, we are to sin less. That's what the Bible indicates.

Yet, the Scriptures say,

"They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness"
(Hebrews 12:10) (New International Version).​

You quote this verse but preceed it with questions about WHY chasten. That verse TELLS us why.

"But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8).

What he means here is that if one is never chastened for his sins, he isn't a child of God.

So, let me ask this: have you been chastened of the Lord for your sins? Or not?​

Sinless Perfectionism is believing and taking action so as to "sin not."

No it isn't. The phrase sinless perfectionism indicates ceasing from sin altogether. Which the Bible does not teach.

These are the very two words uttered by John himself in 1 John 2:1. He says, "sin not."

The point of 2:1 is that John wrote that believers "MAY not sin". It was NOT a command. Please let that sink in.

That is what Sinless Perfectionism means.

So, from what you've just posted, it only means to try to "sin not" then? is that what "taking action" means then?

Jesus said something similar. For Jesus says to the woman who was caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." Jesus says to the man he healed to: "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon thee." "Sin no more" is what Jesus said. And I believe those very words He said to us.

You've quoted from a disputed passage. Scholars have noted that John 7:53-8:11 is NOT FOUND in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have those verses.

That is what I am telling you to do, as well. "Sin no more."

That's what John wanted. For his audience to not sin. But He didn't command them. He was encouraging them not to. But in any case, He also added, which it seems, you love to ignore and skip over, WHEN WE DO SIN, we have an Advocate from the Father, Jesus Christ. And He died for ALL our sins, so that when we confess our sins, we are cleansed and forgiven. Not saved again. If that were true, the Bible would have said so.

For it is what Jesus said.

No, that is not true. You've quoted from a disputed passage.

So if you are against the words "sin no more", or "sin not", then you are against the very plain words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle John.

I'm NOT against them. But I am against the notion of sinless perfection. As long as we are in our bodies of corruption, we have a sin nature, and there WILL BE a struggle between them until we die and leave our physical bodies.

For Jesus even said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Why is the Father perfect? Well, think about it, my friend. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.

Please do some basic research on the Greek word for "perfect". And note all the meanings and usages.

 

[tulipbee]

Nonexistant Free will creates so many problems. Calvin said it can never be solved but the arminians keeps trying.
When God called, none answered. They weren't free not to respond, they couldn't respond. Mankind didn't respond. Not being able isn't the same as free will

 

[nobdysfool]

First, Paul says, "Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6). By the way you speak, I do not get that impression, my friend. So I would appreciate it if you talk to me kindly and with respect and stick to the Scriptures.

For those who are deceived, the truth is offensive. I am telling you the truth, and I don't have much time to spend doing so.

Second, I do not believe I am telling a lie about what people believe here, either. People have made the claim here that they will always have sin in their life because of 1 John 1:8.

I haven't seen anyone say that. The only one who is saying that is you, and it is a falsehood.

Third, I am not denying that believers cannot struggle with sin and confess such sin so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. But this leads us to what John says to: "sin not." (1 John 2:1). This leads us to what John says: "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).

And that interpretation leads directly to you false notion that if one sins, they have lost their salvation and must be saved again. The bible teaches no such thing.

Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." I do not see how "sin no more" equates with one to keep on sinning.

Maybe you're having a problem with that because no one else here has ever said that.

Oh, and yes; I do not abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto spiritual death. Such sins would be murder, hate, theft, adultery, idolatry, and drunkenness. Paul says those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. John says those who do such sins will face the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Paul says we used to be sinners as a part of our old life, but we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3) (Ephesians 4:17-27) (Colossians 3:5-10).

No one ever said you did. Please stop wasting our time with claims of accusations that we have never made. You aren't all that and a bag of chips, too...

Also, let me ask you. Do you believe you can stop sinning for 5 minutes? How about for 1 hour? How about 1 day? Does not logic dictate that what you can do for 5 minutes you can do for even longer? Do you always sin while brushing your teeth? I say this because many have claimed that 1 John 1:8 is a refutation of Sinless Perfectionism by the fact that 1 John 1:8 is saying that a believer is never without sin.

No believer sins constantly and it ludicrous to speak as though they do. Of course believers can have periods of time where they do not sin, but only a fool would believe that that means that they can cease from sin for the rest of their stay on earth, perfectly and without fail. You have not, simply by your bearing false witness here against those who see the error of your doctrines and are trying to correct you. Sinless Perfection? You aren't even close to it!

But how can you follow His commandments if you also break them at the same time? John says we are either obeying His Commandments or we are disobeying His commandments in 1 John 2:3-4.

And when we don't, we confess our sin and receive cleansing. One does not simultaneously keep and break a commandment at the same time. What kind of nonsense are you trying to advocate now?

Also, when the OSAS propentn claims they always have sin as a per 1 John 1:8, they are sinning without impunity.

Who has made this claim? I have yet to see it from anyone but you, because you are bearing false witness against us, and claiming we have said things we did not say. You are lying, sir, and you know it.

The purpose of chastening is not punishment but it is correction so as to lead a person back to holiness and right living and not to remain in one's sins. For chastening cannot be a form of punishment because both believers and unbelievers share the same harships of this life. True punishment and reward is in the after-life for a person.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Who said that chastening was punishment? Provide the quote and the post where it was made.

Okay, so are you saying that a believer can not sin by the fact that He can be restored to fellowship with God again in holiness? Are you saying it is possible for a believer to stop sinning?

I have no idea what you're trying to ask. Please get your thoughts straight before you type them out. As it is, it looks as though you're trying to twist what I said into something I did not say. You do that often, and it is a false method you use to try and obfuscate what are, for you, uncomfortable truths that show your views to be false.
Try again when you can ask a coherent question.

No dear sir. I believe you are the one that needs to rethink what you believe and I sincerely believe you should to pray to the Lord about it. I say this because we both know God would never allow one of His people to think they can sin and still be saved. It doesn't work like that. God is good; And there is no darkness in Him at all.

How many times must we tell you that we are not advocating sin, as you falsely accuse? How many times must we tell you that you make no allowance at all for God's Grace in the life of a believer? You have this notion that the moment a believer sins, they are lost again, and must be saved all over again. That directly denies Scripture.

You are the one whose beliefs need to be taken to the Lord, and for you to ask Him to show you the Truth.