Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hammster]

Dragged? What are you talking about?


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That's the actual definition of draw.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But you said "Christ draws all men to Himself." Now you are saying that they don't all get drawn after all.

Let's stop being cute with words here. Christ does draw all men to Himself. Christ even drew the Pharisees, etc. But that does not mean God forces a person to believe by drawing them. Drawing people to Him so as to hear His words does not equate with zapping them into the Kingdom of God.

Very well, but I have to think that you've refined your earlier concept about this, at least as you expressed it.

So...

What makes some people "see the light" while others hear the Gospel and it makes no impression upon them?

Matthew 13:15 tells us the solution for those who are dull of hearing. The solution is to hear with your ears, see with your eyes, and understand with your heart. These are instructions given to us.


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[Bible Highlighter]

That's the actual definition of draw.

No. Drawing someone and dragging someone are two different things. A woman can draw a man by her looks and affections. A murderer can drag a victim against their will towards his desired location. Two different concepts here.


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[Hammster]

Let's stop being cute with words here. Christ does draw all men to Himself. Christ even drew the Pharisees, etc. But that does not mean God forces a person to believe by drawing them. Drawing people to Him so as to hear His words does not equate with zapping them into the Kingdom of God.



Matthew 13:15 tells us the solution for those who are dull of hearing. The solution is to hear with your ears, see with your eyes, and understand with your heart. These are instructions given to us.


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Jesus was clear on what happens to those who are drawn by God. Do you doubt His words?

 

[Albion]

Let's stop being cute with words here. Christ does draw all men to Himself. Christ even drew the Pharisees, etc. But that does not mean God forces a person to believe by drawing them. Drawing people to Him so as to hear His words does not equate with zapping them into the Kingdom of God.

In other words, this quotation/statement--that you used--doesn't really explain the issue of hearing and faith one way or the other. Let's move on, then.

What causes some who have been called to respond in faith while others hear the word and don't?

 

[Hammster]

No. Drawing someone and dragging someone are two different things. A woman can draw a man by her looks and affections. A murderer can drag a victim against their will towards his desired location. Two different concepts here.


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While that's true, this doesn't change the definition of draw. Let me show you.

“But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
http://bible.com/100/jas.2.6.nasb

 

[Marvin Knox]

Just in case you're interested, here's part of what Arminius has to say about Calvin and his commentaries:

"The rumour about my advising the students to read the works of the Jesuits and of Coornhert I can call by no other name than a lie, for never to any one, either by request or spontaneously, have I uttered a word on that subject. So far from this, after the reading of Scripture which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other as the whole Academy, yea the conscience of my colleagues will testify, I recommend that the Commentaries of Calvin be read, whom I extol in higher terms than Helmichius himself as he owned to me ever did. For I affirm that in the interpretation of the Scriptures, Calvin is incomparable, and that his Commentaries are more to be valued than anything that is handed down to us in the Bibliotheca of the Fathers, so much so that I concede to him a certain spirit of prophecy interpretation, in which he stands distinguished above others, above most, yea above all" ~Arminius, Jacobus ​

Amen brother Jacobus. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Both Arminius and I would be quick to point out that no man is perfect. Both of us would disagree with Calvin on a few points.​

 

[Marvin Knox]

He's not blaming the Pharisees for not saving them. The Pharisees have no power to save them.

Amen brother Hammster.

Among the things that Jesus blamed the Pharisees for, not saving someone wasn't one of them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was clear on what happens to those who are drawn by God. Do you doubt His words?

Jesus said this to Pharisees who did not do God's will. They did not know the Father's ways. They were trying to seek salvation some other way. But Jesus was saying you cannot come to the Father unless he draws you. Meaning, they have to respond to God's conviction upon their heart in doing good. But they did not do that. They hardened their hearts against God.

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[Bible Highlighter]

In other words, this quotation/statement--that you used--doesn't really explain the issue of hearing and faith one way or the other. Let's move on, then.

What causes some who have been called to respond in faith while others hear the word and don't?

No, you misunderstood what I was saying and are still assuming the wrong thing.

God drawing does not equate with some kind of forced or selected regeneration against a person's will. Drawing is this:

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing" (Luke 13:34) (New International Version).

Please take note that God desires to have the Jewish people to be gathered to Him like children but they were unwilling to come. Meaning, they had free will to reject God's desire with his call in their being with Him.


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[Hammster]

Jesus said this to Pharisees who did not do God's will. They did not know the Father's ways. They were trying to seek salvation some other way. But Jesus was saying you cannot come to the Father unless he draws you. Meaning, they have to respond to God's conviction upon their heart in doing good. But they did not do that. They hardened their hearts against God.

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Again, what did Jesus say will happen to those who are drawn by God? I don't want want your interpretation of unrelated text. Remember, you said you rely on scripture. So let's have it.

 

[Hammster]

No, you misunderstood what I was saying and are still assuming the wrong thing.

God drawing does not equate with some kind of forced or selected regeneration against a person's will. Drawing is this:

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing" (Luke 13:34) (New International Version).

Please take note that God desires to have the Jewish people to be gathered to Him like children but they were unwilling to come. Meaning, they had free will to reject God's desire with his call in their being with Him.


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That's not what the text says. It doesn't say that He longs to gather Jews like children. Or that they were unwilling to come. Neither statement is in there, nor implied.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, what did Jesus say will happen to those who are drawn by God? I don't want want your interpretation of unrelated text. Remember, you said you rely on scripture. So let's have it.

It says no man can come unto God unless the Father draws Him is in context of the Pharisees (Jews) who thought they had salvation by their own way. They did not do God's will and did evil and sinful things. So these men could not come unto the Father unless they were convicted of their sin to repent and turn towards God. They were not in a position to be drawn so as to repent because of their sinful actions and preconceived notions about salvation (Even though God still was seeking to gather them). This is similar to the church today. Many live in unrepentant serious sin and think they are saved (When they are not saved). This does not mean God does not draw even His own people, though. Luke 13:34 says he seeks to gather his children like a hen gathers it's chicks, but they would not come. THEY would not come. It wasn't because God didn't zap them correctly so as to believe despite their free will.


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[Bible Highlighter]

That's not what the text says. It doesn't say that He longs to gather Jews like children. Or that they were unwilling to come. Neither statement is in there, nor implied.

The passage says God seeks to gather them. This is compared to a hen wooing it's chicks to be under it's wing. Sounds like a drawing to me. But can someone refuse God's drawing? Yes. Most definitely. This verse says so. God desires to gather these children but they would not come.


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[Hammster]

It says no man can come unto God unless the Father draws Him is in context of the Pharisees (Jews) who thought they had salvation by their own way. They did not do God's will and did evil and sinful things. So these men could not come unto the Father unless they were convicted of their sin to repent and turn towards God. They were not in a position to be drawn because of their sinful actions and preconceived notions about salvation. This is similar to the church today. Many live in unrepentant serious sin and think they are saved (When they are not saved).


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I didn't know this would be this difficult. Is the question, in your words, fuzzy?

What does Jesus say happens to those whom God draws? That's the question. You referenced part of the verse in which Jesus explains this. But not the rest. That leads me to believe you don't care for His words and world rather substitute your own.

 

[Hammster]

The passage says God seeks to gather them. This is compared to a hen wooing it's chicks to be under it's wing. Sounds like a drawing to me. But can someone refuse God's drawing? Yes. Most definitely. This verse says so. God desires to gather these children but they would not come.


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Who does the text say Jesus seeks to gather? Specifically? It's clear.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I also remember the author of Carm (A popular Calvinist website) had once written that Jesus worshiped the Father. This is just obvious error. God does not worship God. Jesus is the second person of the Godhead. The body was just a temple. For he said so himself. Men worshiped Jesus. So it does not make any sense to say that Jesus worshiped the Father. That is just wrong on so many levels. ....

"Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’” Luke 4:8

Are you saying that Jesus did not keep all of the commandments and fulfill the law of God completely?

If that's the case, we above all men are much to be pitied.

 

[Hammster]

"Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’” Luke 4:8

Are you saying that Jesus did not keep all of the commandments and fulfill the law of God completely?

If that's the case, we above all men are much to be pitied.

He's not only saying it, he's adamant about it. Dang near launched a campaign.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While that's true, this doesn't change the definition of draw. Let me show you.

“But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
http://bible.com/100/jas.2.6.nasb

Yes, man can draw men in the sense of drag according to Early Modern English that is used in the KJV. However, in most cases: the drawing of God is usually a sublte tug on most people's hearts. Granted, in some cases, God can be very persuasive. Jonah and Paul are two examples of God making His will known in a powerful way. But nowhere did Jonah and Paul turn into mindless puppets. They still had a choice to do God's will or to still refuse it. Paul even said that he obeyed the heavenly vsion. Jonah still had to actually preach to the Ninevites himself. God did not force him to do that whereby he later was in shock as to how he could have done such a thing.


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[Hammster]

Yes, man can draw men in the sense of drag according to Early Modern English that is used in the KJV. However, in most cases: the drawing of God is usually a sublte tug on most people's hearts. Granted, in some cases, God can be very persuasive. Jonah and Paul are two examples of God making His will known in a powerful way. But nowhere did Jonah and Paul turn into mindless puppets. They still had a choice to do God's will or to still refuse it. Paul even said that he obeyed the heavenly vsion. Jonah still had to actually preach to the Ninevites himself. God did not force him to do that whereby he later was in shock as to how he could have done such a thing.


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You are ignoring the language. The world used in James for drag is the same exact word used for draw in John. Just because it doesn't fit yiyreyou're narrative doesn't mean the definition is changed.