Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Marvin Knox]

Romans 8:28 doesn't promise that those who love God today will love God tomorrow.

Of course verse 28 doesn’t promise that . Nor did I say that it did.

The rest of the passage does however teach that and in no uncertain terms.

I see that you are introducing an argument against OSAS here as I suspected was your reason for engaging me. I’m not sure it fits with the purpose of the thread. But I don’t really care. This thread went off on tangents from very early on. So it's OK with me.

Your point reads more into the text than exists. We have Liberty from God to draw out what is stated; but not to add additional definition.

No- my point reads into the text exactly what the text says when it is read in context.

Namely - - that God loved us before the world began – that He predestined us to be conformed to the likeness of His Son – that He started to fulfill that goal by “calling” “US” to believe – that we were justified when we believed the gospel – that, in the economy of God, we are even now glorified and seated with Christ in the heavens and ruling with Him in the Kingdom of God.

Since Paul is, in context, talking about “you” and “us” as has been pointed out to you -- “you” and “us” were justified in the process right after the internal call - just as he said.

All of the passage is meant to assure us that all things will work together for good for us who love God and are called according to His purpose.

Please don’t try to slip some apostate ringer into the passage. That’s just bogus.

It makes absolutely no sense at all to introduce others (unsaved people) into a passage which was meant to assure us all of the guaranteed nature of our eventual life with God (forgiven forever) - none at all. It would be antithetical to the purpose and entire message of the passage.

If anyone is, as you say, adding additional definitions to the text it is you by your bringing non-saved people into the equation.

There is danger in restricting God to a predefined theological box. Romans 8:29-30 is true only for those who actively love God in the present (v. 28).

Exactly. So don’t try so hard to keep him out of the Calvinism box if that’s where He wants to go.

Who said that it wasn’t true only for those who actively love God?

The entire message of Paul and of God in Romans 8 to us however is that our actively loving God and His actively loving us throughout eternity is guaranteed to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

Duhh!

Notice how God closes the chapter with exactly that kind of promise stated another way in addition to the ways that He has assured the believers all through this chapter.

“37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Too often Romans 8:28-30 is used as a proof text for an automatic glorification without acknowledging that the promises provided in the chain are conditional on the first link of loving Christ progressively (verse 28).

Everyone acknowledges that what is said in the rest of the passage was addressed to those in verse 28.

After reading many, many commentaries on this passage over the years I will say right here that you seem to be almost alone in your total disregard for the context of this important passage.

Romans 8:28-30 supports the doctrine known as conditional security. Those who continue to endure in the faith until the end will be glorified.

This is the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints exactly. The saints will persevere to the end according to that doctrine. It is the “P” in the famous TULIP acronym.

I’m not sure that I see things exactly like you and the 5-point Calvinists do. I’m more of a “perseverance of God” kind of guy in my theology. But you are certainly in very good company with the likes of John MacArthur, R.C. Sproal et al.

I'm sure you'll be happy to know that.

You’re at least a 5th of the way to becoming a good Calvinist.

I'll repeat here what I have said before. There are plenty of ways to try to refute the doctrine of OSAS if that's your purpose.

But trying to undermine the rock solid golden chain of salvation is probably not your best avenue of attack.

It has stood the test of time and of the scrutiny of hundreds of theologians over the years.

The idea of an inward, effectual call unto salvation for the elect is pretty clear for all to see. The implication that there is a form of election that comes into play here is worth discussing for sure. But the teaching itself is there in black and white - as God means it to be IMO.

 

[sdowney717]

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Something to be noticed is this is written in the past tense.
Signifying it is completed spiritually and can not be undone!

Acts 15
18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

,
I didn't say that, but a stronger case can be made for it from Scripture than your theory.

See:
– Ps 65:4

– Prov 16:4

– Mt 24:31

– Luke 18:7

– Acts 15:17,18

– Romans 8:28-30

– Rom 8:33

– Romans 9:11

– Romans 9:15,16

– Romans 11:2

– Romans 11:5-7

- 1 Cor 2:7

– Ephesians 1:5,11

– 1 Thess 1:4

– 2 Thess 2:13

– Titus 1:1

– 1 Peter 1:2

– Rev 13:8

Actually, on the contrary,, Scripture testifies of man first taking action whereby God then dwells within them.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

Paul obeyed the vision from Jesus before the Holy Ghost had filled him.

In Acts 8, some had yet to receive the Spirit when they believed or accepted the gospel.

Granted, I believe God regenerates a person when they believe and Christ then comes to live within them. The believer then has to continue to abide in Christ and His righteous good ways.

But the point is that God does not have to fill an individual or regenerate him in order for them to have faith.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Matthew 17:20 says,
"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Jesus said that the reason why they could not cast out the devils was because of THEIR UNBELIEF. It was not an unbelief God had placed upon them. Jesus then proceeds to say that if YOU (ye) HAVE FAITH as a grain of a mustard seed, you will be able to remove mountains. So if it is God that gives faith to a person against their own will, then Jesus would never say.... that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed. Meaning, people can have varying degrees of faith (Is what Jesus is saying). Even Peter who started to sink in the water because of a lack of faith. This was not God playing a cruel joke on Peter. Peter has to actually believe and have faith in order for faith to be his. Faith is not something that is just magically placed upon you. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (i.e. Hearing / Believing the gospel).

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[Bible Highlighter]

What exactly do those two parts of your sentence mean?

Exactly what it says. The Scriptures say Christ draws all men unto Himself. Faith is our response to that drawing.

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[Bible Highlighter]

My time is limited. So I may not get to everyone's post.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Hello Jason.

I asked what the problem was?

What are you talking about?


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[Marvin Knox]

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Something to be noticed is this is written in the past tense.
Signifying it is completed spiritually and can not be undone!

Acts 15
18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works."

Amen!

In the plan of God it was all as good as done from eternity past when He began loving us.

Everything that happens in God's creation was predestined by God to happen and nothing can make it not happen.

If you are called according to His purpose, you will fulfill that purpose in the ages to come to the glory of God.

You are seated with Him in Heaven even now and reigning with Him in the Kingdom of God. How well you lay hold of that in this life depends on your faith that it is a done deal.

Amazing how many would be teachers here in this forum try hard to undermine the faith of God's saints. By so doing they actually obstruct the Kingdom purposes. All their efforts here along those lines are so much wood, hay, and stubble IMO.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

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[Received]

This is confusing. Are you saying that people cannot help but sin, so God should not be angry?

Assuming that we take things with the only biblical evidence we can that there is no middle ground between faith and sin and therefore people who aren't saved by God's irresistible grace can't help but sin, yes. Getting angry at something that happens necessarily isn't reasonable emotion.

That's not what He was saying. He didn't say that they could prevent people from entering the Kingdom. His point was that their example of self-righteousness could never lead anyone into the kingdom. If you read the prior verses, this becomes clear.


Again, He is angry at their self-righteousness. They thought they were leading people into the Kingdom, but they were doing just the opposite.

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in."

"You" implies responsibility; responsibility implies freedom; freedom means they have the choice not to do this, either directly in the moment with their choices or by being responsible for their characters. If God hasn't predestined people to be saved, it is his will that people aren't saved; you can't be angry at what follows your will (anger is precisely the emotion that results form one's desires and intentions being thwarted), here to not be saved.

 

[St_Worm2]

Scripture testifies of man first taking action whereby God then dwells within them.

Hi Jason, so, "God loves us because we first loved Him"? Is that how it goes

God's offer of salvation was first given to Israel, so it was to Israel that St. Paul was first sent to preach. But when they refused to listen to him, he turned his ministry toward the people of the Nations according to the Lord's command. God said to him: "I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’ ” ~Acts 13:47

It's obvious that this was extremely pleasing to all of the Antioch Gentiles who heard these words because the Bible tells us, "they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord". ~Acts 13:48a

The Bible also tells us that some of them came to faith after hearing these words, that they "believed". Which ones were those? .. (see Acts 13:44-48)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason, so, "God loves us because we first loved Him"? Is that how it goes

God's offer of salvation was first given to Israel, so it was to Israel that St. Paul was first sent to preach. But when they refused to listen to him, he turned his ministry toward the people of the Nations according to the Lord's command. God said to him: "I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’ ” ~Acts 13:47

It's obvious that this was extremely pleasing to all of the Antioch Gentiles who heard these words because the Bible tells us, "they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord". ~Acts 13:48a

The Bible also tells us that some of them came to faith after hearing these words, that they "believed". Which ones were those? .. (see Acts 13:44-48)

Two different topics. One is about dwelling and the other is about love. Jesus (Who is God) first loved us in the fact that He died on the cross and had risen from the grave so as to offer us the free gift of salvation. Granted, I am not denying that God cannot fill a person with His Spirit shortly before they repent or turn to the Lord in faith. But this is not a regeneration. The regeneraation quickly follows after one comes to the faith. Regeneration does not proceed faith. Again, Jesus said if a person has faith the size of a mustard seed., then can move mountains. Meaning, God's Word declares the faith (Which is a spiritual message), and man can respond to that faith if He so chooses by the drawing of God.


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[St_Worm2]

Hi Jason, I'll get back to you about what you just wrote, but first, what of my final question above? Which part of the group in Antioch was it who came to, "believe" .. Acts 13:48

Shoot, I'll pretend we're back in school again What are the four missing words needed to fill in the blank below?

"As many as had been _______________________________ believed" A cheat sheet can be found here : Acts 13:48b​

Thanks!

--David

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason, I'll get back to you about what you just wrote, but first, what of my final question above? Which part of the group in Antioch was it who came to, "believe" .. Acts 13:48

Shoot, I'll pretend we're back in school again What are the four missing words needed to fill in the blank below?

"As many as had been _______________________________ believed" A cheat sheet can be found here : Acts 13:48b​

Thanks!

--David

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/NT/Acts13_48.html


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[Bible Highlighter]

When God draws a person, what does Jesus say will happen?

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/John6_44.html


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[Bible Highlighter]

Also, people like to quote John Calvin. However, Calvin had Michael Servetus burned alive for a disagreement over their beliefs.

Michael's last words were, “O God, save my soul; O Jesus of the eternal God, have mercy on me.”


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[Marvin Knox]

Also, people like to quote John Calvin. However, Calvin had Michael Servetus burned alive for a disagreement over their beliefs.

Michael's last words were, “O God, save my soul; O Jesus of the eternal God, have mercy on me.” ....

People will say almost anything to undermine in any way they can the doctrines of grace as taught by Calvinists.

John Calvin was a man with flaws just like any man - even men of God.

But we should judge so called Calvinism on the scriptural basis or lack thereof concerning it's various doctrines.

Here is a link to a small article about Calvin's role in the matter of the death of the heretic Michael Servetus.

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/issue02/c_vs_s.htm

 

[klutedavid]

What are you talking about?


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Hello Jason.

You may be to busy to reply properly.

 

[klutedavid]

Hi Jason, I'll get back to you about what you just wrote, but first, what of my final question above? Which part of the group in Antioch was it who came to, "believe" .. Acts 13:48

Shoot, I'll pretend we're back in school again What are the four missing words needed to fill in the blank below?

"As many as had been _______________________________ believed" A cheat sheet can be found here : Acts 13:48b​

Thanks!

--David

Hello St Worm.

We are only ever chosen in Christ.

 

[St_Worm2]

What are the four missing words needed to fill in the blank below?

"As many as had been _______________________________ believed" A cheat sheet can be found here : Acts 13:48b​

Well, the website address you posited above is not the correct answer. This is however

"As many as had been APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE believed"
​

Why did you feel you needed to turn to an anti-Calvinist website to answer that simple question Though I didn't disagree with everything it said, the "meat" of their answer amounted to little more than, "we can't really believe that's what St. Luke actually meant, can we?"

They go on to say: "Why not assume the more mundane statement that these Gentiles were really eager in their hearts to have a share in eternal life, in contrast to the Jews who chafed at the good news?"

That the Gentiles were "eager" is clear, but my question (in answer to their question) would be this, if the "mundane" understanding is all that St. Luke intended here, why did he write what he did, the way he did? Why would he choose to write something that forces his readers to "bypass" or "overlook" part of what he said to be able to get at his intended meaning

Anything is possible, I suppose, and I would discard it out-of-hand if it was the only place in the Bible that taught such things, but it's not (i.e. Ephesians 1:4-6).

One of my purposes in trying to get you to answer my fill in the blank question was to hopefully move us back towards Hammster's more important and so far unanswered question/point from the previous thread page .. and I see you already went there .. so, terrific

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

--David