Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

You can't say that, however, after you tried to change the subject. And, no, you didn't "need to know" any of that, not in order to understand the point that had been made about hearing and faith.

He is saying that it is impossible for the word "hearing" to mean "hearing / believing." I used different words by way of a different example so as to say that very thing. He did not seem to understand what I said or he simply ignored it.

...

 

[Hammster]

No, that is not what I said. You are placing those words upon me. The words of the gospel are spiritual words and they are life. God the Father draws a person. The Lord makes it possible by His power that a person can repent. Without these things, then men would be doomed. But God does not make these thing exclusive to only some special club, though. Salvation is open and freely given to all people. Oh, and if a man repents of his sins and believes the gospel he is no longer aligning with sin but he aligning with the faith or that which is spiritual (Whereby God would then change their heart and spirit).

In fact, the Scriptures say "circumcise your own heart" to the Israelites. Circumcision of the heart was something God also did for the Israelite, as well. But in that context: God circumcising a person's heart was the Lord regenerating a person. To circumcise your heart was to have a broken and contrite heart about your sin before God and seek Him for your salvation.


...

When God draws a person, what does Jesus say will happen?

 

[Albion]

Yeh, I agree that this has gotten murky, Jason. Would you say that if faith comes by hearing, that doesn't mean that it comes without any input from God other than that he made the information generally available in the first place? Or is it the case that hearing is the vehicle by which those who have been chosen by God to have it make sense receive it?

 

[klutedavid]

Uh, society came up with the term sociopath. Not the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible teach that you can act like a sociopath and make into Heaven. Jesus was against the Pharisees who acted immorally. Paul said if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness (i.e. morality), he is proud and he knows nothing.


....

Hello Jason.

Speaking of morality and it's application to our lives.

Here is the defintion of morality from a respected dictionary (Oxford Dictionary).

Moral, the principle concerning the distinction between good and bad behaviour.

So what does the word 'principle' mean? A rule, a golden rule, a guideline, e.t.c.

Hence Jason, a moral person is a person who holds to certain rules regarding
good behavior and bad behavior.

How about an example of what would be considered to be a moral rule. To
ensure that we understand what a moral would be, and how to modify our
behavior to fit the moral or principle.

Here is a simple moral that an apostle mentions in the New Testament.

Galatians 5:21
envying, drunkenness, carousing...

A person who is drunk, is a person manifesting the symptoms of excessive alcohol
consumption. These symptoms may include, slowness in movement, slurred speech,
clumsiness, e.t.c.

Now we will apply this specific moral to our lives in order to implement God's
instruction. Our service has just finished and one of our elders invites us all to
the local tavern (bar) for a bonding session. We arrive and we remember God's
instruction, in regards to not drinking too much and becoming drunk (sin).

So the elders watch for the warning signs of this sin of drunkeness, and a warning
is issued to anyone, when the visible signs become obvious. All in all, we had an
excellent afternoon at the tavern, I love my church and for good reason.

What according to the scripture, is the fundamental problem with this interpretation
and it's application. As far as the world is concerned, an afternoon at the tavern
is a common way to entertain oneself and others.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hello Jason.

Speaking of morality and it's application to our lives.

Here is the defintion of morality from a respected dictionary (Oxford Dictionary).

Moral, the principle concerning the distinction between good and bad behaviour.

So what does the word 'principle' mean? A rule, a golden rule, a guideline, e.t.c.

Hence Jason, a moral person is a person who holds to certain rules regarding
good behavior and bad behavior.

How about an example of what would be considered to be a moral rule. To
ensure that we understand what a moral would be, and how to modify our
behavior to fit the moral or principle.

Here is a simple moral that an apostle mentions in the New Testament.

Galatians 5:21
envying, drunkenness, carousing...

A person who is drunk, is a person manifesting the symptoms of excessive alcohol
consumption. These symptoms may include, slowness in movement, slurred speech,
clumsiness, e.t.c.

Now we will apply this specific moral to our lives in order to implement God's
instruction. Our service has just finished and one of our elders invites us all to
the local tavern (bar) for a bonding session. We arrive and we remember God's
instruction, in regards to not drinking too much and becoming drunk (sin).

So the elders watch for the warning signs of this sin of drunkeness, and a warning
is issued to anyone, when the visible signs become obvious. All in all, we had an
excellent afternoon at the tavern, I love my church and for good reason.

What according to the scripture, is the fundamental problem with this interpretation
and it's application. As far as the world is concerned, an afternoon at the tavern
is a common way to entertain oneself and others.

Paul talks about how the moral law is still in effect from the Old by the fact he stresses that we are to love our neighbor under the New Covenant (Romans 13:8-10).

...

 

[FreeGrace2]

That question makes sense? To who?

But believing the gospel is the result of faith.

This is what I posted:
"Here is what does make sense.

Believing the gospel IS your belief. Do you believe that? If not, please explain why not."

Why did you think my question was the issue. It was the statement BEFORE my question that makes sense. But, of course, this is just another of your attempts to dodge having to answer my question that followed the statement that makes sense.

This is the statement that makes sense. "Believing the gospel IS your belief."

Now, do you believe that or not? If not, please explain why not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yeh, I agree that this has gotten murky, Jason. Would you say that if faith comes by hearing, that doesn't mean that it comes without any input from God other than that he made the information generally available in the first place? Or is it the case that hearing is the vehicle by which those who have been chosen by God to have it make sense receive it?

In the context of the verse this "faith" would be from someone who listened to God's Word and believed it. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him. This suggests faith is something we must bring about under the drawing of God.


....

 

[Albion]

This suggests faith is something we must bring about under the drawing of God.


....

What exactly do those two parts of your sentence mean?

 

[sdowney717]

Faith comes through Christ, so then a gift. And why not? This is of course very much according to the teaching of election, that those who believe had obtained faith since God has chosen us beforehand to be obedient to the gospel, as Peter teaches us. 1 Peter 1

Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Acts 3:16 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
16 And His name, through and by faith in His name, has made this man whom you see and recognize well and strong. [Yes] the faith which is through and by Him [Jesus] has given the man this perfect soundness [of body] before all of you.

They asked Christ, Lord increase our faith! But Christ said the tiniest faith can move a humongous mountain.

 

[sdowney717]

Hebrews 11:6New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Since a natural man, those who are in the flesh, can not please God, they must necessarily have no faith.
And of course, a natural carnal man is at enmity with God, so will not be coming to Christ being faithless.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Faith comes through Christ, so then a gift. And why not? This is of course very much according to the teaching of election, that those who believe had obtained faith since God has chosen us beforehand to be obedient to the gospel, as Peter teaches us. 1 Peter 1

Acts 3:16
And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Acts 3:16 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
16 And His name, through and by faith in His name, has made this man whom you see and recognize well and strong. [Yes] the faith which is through and by Him [Jesus] has given the man this perfect soundness [of body] before all of you.

They asked Christ, Lord increase our faith! But Christ said the tiniest faith can move a humongous mountain.

The Lord provides faith for a person in the sense that that He made the gospel possible and offers that plan of salvation freely to all people. Nowhere does Scripture say that God forces faith upon people or that God only makes this faith possible only for a select few. To me, that is salvation bigotry and it is saying only a select few in a special club or group have the capacity to be saved. It is utter non-sense and it would make the preaching of the gospel a lie. For you cannot offer salvation to people if God first needs to regenerate them.

For Paul and Silas told the jailer that he should believe on Jesus as to how to be saved. Paul and Silas did not say that the jailer should wait upon God to see if God would first regenerate Him first.


....

 

[sdowney717]

Again this is pointing to, we must be born of God, regenerated to have faith and come to God and be justified.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again this is pointing to, we must be born of God, regenerated to have faith and come to God and be justified.

Paul and Silas never told the jailer to wait for regeneration so as to be saved. They simply said believe on Jesus and he would be saved. It would seem that if what you say is true, then we would clearly see at least one case of this happening. But we don't. Which means you are making it up or adding this type of belief to the Scriptures. Nowhere does the Bible say we are regenerated first before we have faith. Granted, regeneration follows faith. For one cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. So I see it as a one time event. Having faith in Jesus for real in desire for Him to be your Savior also results in regeneration immediately after.


...

 

[Albion]

The Lord provides faith for a person in the sense that that He made the gospel possible and offers that plan of salvation freely to all people.

OK. You didn't answer my question directly, but this seems to clarify your position adequately enough that we know where you went wrong.

that God forces faith upon people

...which we all know is just wordmongering. The greatest gift (and we all have called it a gift) that can be had is hardly to be considered "forced upon" anyone.

To me, that is salvation bigotry

So what? God doesn't need to conform to the socio-political fads of our own culture at one moment in time.

 

[sdowney717]

Paul and Silas never told the jailer to wait for regeneration so as to be saved. They simply said believe on Jesus and he would be saved. It would seem that if what you say is true, then we would clearly see at least one case of this happening. But we don't. Which means you are making it up or adding this type of belief to the Scriptures. Nowhere does the Bible say we are regenerated first before we have faith.


...

You're just missing what God is doing on the heart behind the visible scenes of their lives.
Recall this, the kingdom does not come with OBSERVATION.

The Coming of the Kingdom
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

See it is about what is going on the inside of the heart, that shows up in the words people say.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

OK. You didn't answer my question directly, but this seems to clarify your position adequately enough that we know where you went wrong.


...which we all know is just wordmongering. The greatest gift (and we all have called it a gift) that can be had is hardly to be considered "forced upon" anyone.


So what? God doesn't need to conform to the socio-political fads of our own culture at one moment in time.

No, you are saying a person first needs to be regenerated in order to have faith. But we see no example of Jesus and or the apostles saying this, though. You are saying that. Not the Bible.


....

 

[Albion]

,

No, you are saying a person first needs to be regenerated in order to have faith.

I didn't say that, but a stronger case can be made for it from Scripture than your theory.

See:
– Ps 65:4

– Prov 16:4

– Mt 24:31

– Luke 18:7

– Acts 15:17,18

– Romans 8:28-30

– Rom 8:33

– Romans 9:11

– Romans 9:15,16

– Romans 11:2

– Romans 11:5-7

- 1 Cor 2:7

– Ephesians 1:5,11

– 1 Thess 1:4

– 2 Thess 2:13

– Titus 1:1

– 1 Peter 1:2

– Rev 13:8

 

[klutedavid]

Paul talks about how the moral law is still in effect from the Old by the fact he stresses that we are to love our neighbor under the New Covenant (Romans 13:8-10).

...

Hello Jason.

I asked what the problem was?

 

[Hammster]

This is what I posted:
"Here is what does make sense.

Believing the gospel IS your belief. Do you believe that? If not, please explain why not."

Why did you think my question was the issue. It was the statement BEFORE my question that makes sense. But, of course, this is just another of your attempts to dodge having to answer my question that followed the statement that makes sense.

This is the statement that makes sense. "Believing the gospel IS your belief."

Now, do you believe that or not? If not, please explain why not.

Okay, your statement makes no sense. I can say that I believe the gospel. To say that I believe that I believe the gospel makes no sense.

 

[Hammster]

No, that is not what I said. You are placing those words upon me. The words of the gospel are spiritual words and they are life. God the Father draws a person. The Lord makes it possible by His power that a person can repent. Without these things, then men would be doomed. But God does not make these thing exclusive to only some special club, though. Salvation is open and freely given to all people. Oh, and if a man repents of his sins and believes the gospel he is no longer aligning with sin but he aligning with the faith or that which is spiritual (Whereby God would then change their heart and spirit).

In fact, the Scriptures say "circumcise your own heart" to the Israelites. Circumcision of the heart was something God also did for the Israelite, as well. But in that context: God circumcising a person's heart was the Lord regenerating a person. To circumcise your heart was to have a broken and contrite heart about your sin before God and seek Him for your salvation.


...

When God draws a person, what does Jesus say will happen?