Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Received]

I'm not following you as the parameters that have been drawn by these verses seem clear enough. For instance, it is not necessary to know 'who' is drawn or 'how' the drawing works for v44's, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" to be true in and of itself, so please elaborate.

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - Happy Reformation Day

The term "draw" doesn't mean "dictate". I'm drawn to reading Jonathan Franzen's new novel, but that doesn't mean I'm dictated to do such. If you think about it, we have to be drawn to anything in any secular context in order for it to become a real possibility for us, otherwise what's the point if it has no appeal?

 

[sdowney717]

The term "draw" doesn't mean "dictate". I'm drawn to reading Jonathan Franzen's new novel, but that doesn't mean I'm dictated to do such. If you think about it, we have to be drawn to anything in any secular context in order for it to become a real possibility for us, otherwise what's the point if it has no appeal?

John 17 English Standard Version (ESV)

The High Priestly Prayer
17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

God draws people to Christ, that is those who come to Christ, God has drawn only them and none else. If God does not draw them to Christ, they do not come to Christ.
Jesus has been given authority in Heaven and earth, and gives eternal life only to those God has given Him. Since not all have eternal life, some have not been given to Christ by God to be saved.

In John 17 Jesus describes in a slightly differing way, the same outcome as in John 6. Eternal life is only for those God gives to Christ as believers, predestining them by his predetermination.

 

[St_Worm2]

The term "draw" doesn't mean "dictate". I'm drawn to reading Jonathan Franzen's new novel, but that doesn't mean I'm dictated to do such. If you think about it, we have to be drawn to anything in any secular context in order for it to become a real possibility for us, otherwise what's the point if it has no appeal?

Hi again Received, interestingly, "draw" ἑλκύω (helkuo) does mean "dictate" or "impel" or "drag" or "draw by inward power", both Biblically and extra-Biblically. ἑλκύω (helkuo) never means to coax, IOW, v44 is not teaching us that God is our Celestial, "Mr Woo-Woo"

God "draws" [ἑλκύω (helkuo)] us to His Son (John 6:44)
Peter "drew" [ἑλκύω (helkuo)] his sword from its sheath (John 18:10)
Paul and Silas were "dragged" [ἑλκύω (helkuo)] before the magistrates (Acts of the Apostles 16:19-20) ​

I understand that ἑλκύω (helkuo) is used in a Greek play where it means to "draw" water from a well. But even in that case, which seems very gentle in nature, the person drawing the water is hardly trying to coax it out of the well, he's dragging it out, by force (it just seems gentle). So it is with God's drawing of us in v44 God doesn't "drag" us to Christ, He "draws" us to Him, but He does so irresistibly

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[TaylorSexton]

This verse only indicates that a draw is necessary for salvation; this doesn't at all mean it's sufficient (i.e., irresistible grace).

"All those the Father gives me will come to me...And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will (not "might—only if they respond to the drawing") raise them up at the last day."

—John 6:37a, 39a, 44

I see no evidence of God punishing them for what he used them for.

Then, with all respect, I don't believe you've done anything beyond a cursory reading of the passage. The text is remarkably clear.

We therefore must understand predestination as "working around" human action.

This is a complete denial of the meaning of the term προορίζω, both lexically and theologically. It is a very simple term, actually. It means precisely what its combined root and prefix mean. Nowhere in Scripture is God said to "work around" human action, as if he is a reactionary God (which, by the way, would be quite a pitiable deity). On the contrary, as the Scripture says: "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please'" (Isaiah 46:10) and "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord" (Proverbs 16:33). Even in Genesis 50, Joseph does not say to his brothers, "You intended to harm me, but God worked around it for good." No, he says, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good." He uses the same Hebrew verb in reference to both parties, indicating that the same act that the wicked brothers performed against Joseph was the exact same act that God performed. In other words, we are not talking about two different acts, here. It wasn't that the brothers did one thing and God, be reactionary, intervened and saved the day. No, the Hebrew is clear. God not only used, but decreed the actions of the brothers, and the brothers did what God decreed (for was it not God's plan from the beginning to send Joseph, and thus all Israel, to Egypt?) The only difference was motive.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Free will is an inconsistency in and of itself. If you believe in the preeminence and absolute sovereignty of God- you are Calvinistic in your theology. Plain and simple.

 

[Jesus First]

Free will is an inconsistency in and of itself. If you believe in the preeminence and absolute sovereignty of God- you are Calvinistic in your theology. Plain and simple.

A sovereign God who gives man a free will —yet remains sovereign is greater than a God who must preordain every detail in advance to remain sovereign.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

A sovereign God who gives man a free will —yet remains sovereign is greater than a God who must preordain every detail in advance to remain sovereign.

God doesn't play dice. That would make the dice God, you see.

 

[sdowney717]

A sovereign God who gives man a free will —yet remains sovereign is greater than a God who must preordain every detail in advance to remain sovereign.

A primer in the doctrine of election and well written

http://founders.org/library/reis1/reis/

 

[TaylorSexton]

A sovereign God who gives man a free will —yet remains sovereign is greater than a God who must preordain every detail in advance to remain sovereign.

Ummm, what? If you could please explain how a man can have free will in light of an omnipotent, omniscient God, without negating either one of those attributes (which we all agree God has, I hope, or else I just need to leave) in the slightest fashion, that would be an awesome feat of philosophy.

 

[sdowney717]

Ummm, what? If you could please explain how a man can have free will in light of an omnipotent, omniscient God, without negating either one of those attributes (which we all agree God has, I hope, or else I just need to leave) in the slightest fashion, that would be an awesome feat of philosophy.

God works all things according to the council of HIS own will, of that we have a sure word.
Meaning God does not ask for or solicit advice from anyone, God makes His own freewill decision.
Where is it taught man has a free will?
On the contrary , Christ taught man's will is not free, he is a slave to sin.

The Truth Shall Make You Free
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

And Christ says He frees us from sin, not that He gives us a free will.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free will is an inconsistency in and of itself.

I would be very interested in how that would be so. I cannot imagine. However, free will really is only freedom of choice. Nothing more.

If you believe in the preeminence and absolute sovereignty of God- you are Calvinistic in your theology. Plain and simple.

God, in His absolute sovereignty, GAVE mankind freedom to choose to accept Him or reject Him. Plain and simple.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

I just wanted to say I'm very pleased to see Arminians and Calvinists having such a classy and respectful conversation. All too often I see these conversations get very heated. As a Calvinist myself I really don't care if you believe in Calvinism or not. election, predestination and free will are not essentials of the faith and it drives me crazy when I see both sides accusing each other of damnable heresy. So well done guys! [emoji106]

 

[nobdysfool]

A sovereign God who gives man a free will —yet remains sovereign is greater than a God who must preordain every detail in advance to remain sovereign.

The God who preordains every detail in advance doesn't do so to remain sovereign, He does so because HE IS sovereign.

Your view of free will is apparently a great deal more than what it actually is.

Why is it that most Believers are perfectly fine with God having pre-eminence in all things, EXCEPT for Salvation? Why does man feel that he must stick his nose into it and try to claim a piece of it as his own doing?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The God who preordains every detail in advance doesn't do so to remain sovereign, He does so because HE IS sovereign.

If 'preordains' means "permit/allow", then I agree. But to claim that every detail has been caused by Him cannot be supported from Scripture. If He causes every detail, then He is the author of sin. I'll never buy that.

Your view of free will is apparently a great deal more than what it actually is.

Seems most people don't understand what it really is. It is nothing more than freedom to choose, which includes either believing or rejecting the promises of God.

Why is it that most Believers are perfectly fine with God having pre-eminence in all things, EXCEPT for Salvation?

Why would free will have any impact on God's pre-eminence? The plan of salvation is from Him alone. Man has no part in it other than to just receive the free gift.

Unless one can show that receiving a gift puts the givee in charge of anything, it is a false charge. The Giver is God. And He gets all the pre-eminence in giving the gift to those He wants to give it to. And the Bible tells us clearly who He wants to receive the gift: believers.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

God was pleased to save those who believe. Nothing about election here.

Why does man feel that he must stick his nose into it and try to claim a piece of it as his own doing?

Who does this? Not even the arminians, with whom I disagree, do that.

Receiving a free gift in no way gives the givee any bragging rights about having the gift. One may surely boast in the Lord about having the gift, as Paul himself did in 1 Cor 1:31 - so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Calvin wins by epic beard.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Calvin wins by epic beard.

Yes, according to the picture, he would win a beard growing contest. But neither of them would win any theological awards.

 

[expos4ever]

A sovereign God who gives man a free will —yet remains sovereign is greater than a God who must preordain every detail in advance to remain sovereign.

While I suspect you and I are on the same side of this issue, I think the point is that to the extent man has free will, this necessarily reduces the sovereignty of God. Thus, I think your opponent in debate would say, God cannot remain fully sovereign if man has any degree of free will whatsoever.

Having said that, I believe that man indeed does have free will.

 

[expos4ever]

Ummm, what? If you could please explain how a man can have free will in light of an omnipotent, omniscient God, without negating either one of those attributes (which we all agree God has, I hope, or else I just need to leave) in the slightest fashion, that would be an awesome feat of philosophy.

Well, you are probably not going to like this, but I do indeed believe that God is neither fully omnipotent nor fully omniscient. So I can then claim that man can have free will without creating a contradiction. No doubt, you believe that the omniscience and omnipotence of God is Biblical; I disagree and politely suggest it is an idea that leaks in from the "caricature" of the Christian God that floats around in the air of our culture and which many take onboard as if by osmosis.

We agree on one thing, at least: If man has any freewill, this takes away from the "sovereignty" of God.

 

[TaylorSexton]

I do indeed believe that God is neither fully omnipotent nor fully omniscient.

Then, with all respect, I do not consider you within the realm of the orthodoxy. Thus, any conversation we have will be fruitless because we are not on the same page with the most fundamental, basic aspects of God.

 

[St_Worm2]

Well, you are probably not going to like this, but I do indeed believe that God is neither fully omnipotent nor fully omniscient. So I can then claim that man can have free will without creating a contradiction. No doubt, you believe that the omniscience and omnipotence of God is Biblical; I disagree and politely suggest it is an idea that leaks in from the "caricature" of the Christian God that floats around in the air of our culture and which many take onboard as if by osmosis.

We agree on one thing, at least: If man has any freewill, this takes away from the "sovereignty" of God.

Hi expos4ever, have you ever seen the movie, Mouse Hunt? If you want to see what could happen to the universe if even a single "maverick molecule" existed in it outside of God's purview, watch that movie

As I believe has already been mentioned above, whatever is outside the scope of God's control, is God to Him. If a maverick molecule existed in the universe (or beyond it), God would still be a "ruler", and a powerful one at that, but He would not be "God". His word to us would be little more than conjecture and hopefulness, His prophesies and His promises to us worth little more than the paper they are written on (because He would have no way of knowing/guaranteeing that they would or could ever come to pass).

The Westminster Confession tells us that, "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass". IOW, whatever happens in this world, God knew it would happen beforehand (i.e. Psalms 139:1-16). Long before, in fact (Ephesians 1:4-6).

This does not mean that God "causes" everything that happens (we certainly choose to sin without any help from Him, for instance). Many things, like sin, He "allows" to happen (or we would not have free will).

Free will means that we normally have the ability to choose to do what we desire most at any given moment. This doesn't mean I am autonomous. For instance, I would never choose to pay taxes if I didn't feel I had to, but I do so because my "desire" to NOT have the IRS put a lien on my home is greater than my "desire" to not pay my taxes (well, there is that pesky command to obey the governing authorities .. i.e. Romans 13:1-7 .. and the fact that the even the Lord paid taxes, which might have something to do with it as well ).

There is much more to this, of course, but what it basically means it that God is sovereign over all (omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, immutable....) and we are free (but only within His purview and ordination, PTL).

Your and His,
David