Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

That's your proof text?! That is not a parable! She was just replying to what Jesus said, "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

Where are you getting these ideas from?! I would love to know which church you are a member of. . .

Really? Are you being serious? No. She expounded upon Jesus's parable with a continued parable or example she made herself.

In fact, because of this parable..... Jesus said great was her faith (as a result in her making it) AND her daughter was healed of a devil that very hour. So no. You are seriously just not wanting to see it.


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[jimmyjimmy]

Really? Are you being serious? No. She expounded upon Jesus's parable with a continued parable or example she made herself.

In fact, because of this parable..... Jesus said great was her faith (as a result in her making it) AND her daughter was healed of a devil that very hour. So no. You are seriously just not wanting to see it.


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She was not making up a story/parable. She was simply answering Jesus with His parable. I will reply no further.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

She was not making up a story/parable. She was simply answering Jesus with His parable. I will reply no further.

You will reply no further because you know you are wrong. Jesus did not put the parable or example she made into her head. She was expounding upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own.

For example: If you made a parable about how locking your doors can keep people from easily entering into your home, I could expound upon such a parable with an example or parable of my own by saying how people could also easily enter your home by simply breaking your window. The parable I just made is not your parable even though it is related to yours.


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[GillDouglas]

No. God manipulates the evil that comes about by man and or angels. God can no more command evil to take place than for the sun not to be hot. What you propose is madness to the highest degree and goes against the very goodness of God. You are painting God in a bad light; And it is wrong.

Can you make a parable to illustrate this truth?
We both know you cannot anymore than your parable supported the goodness of OSAS.
For the Scriptures say, God is love.
The Scriptures also say there is no darkness in God.
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"Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul. And I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. Why have you despised the word of the Lord, to do what is evil in his sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.’” David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die.”" (2 Samuel 12:7-14)

Explain this away, like you always do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul. And I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. Why have you despised the word of the Lord, to do what is evil in his sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.’” David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die.”" (2 Samuel 12:7-14)

Explain this away, like you always do.

First, David was reaping what he had sowed. He was being punished for his sin. God was executing fair justice for his wrong doing. Besides, even righteous men can be challenged by sinful people. Second, God did not specifically create or manipulate anyone to sin here. The evil that exists is already in existence on behalf of the choice of free willed beings. Also, God is the giver and taker of life. So it is not evil for God to take life. For he owns all of creation. Also, God was also punishing David to help him realize there are consequences to his actions.

For there is a huge difference of God decreeing justice versus God decreeing evil (which would involve injustice). Also, sometimes the word "evil" in the KJV can be understood as calamity or trouble (based on the context), too.


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[tulipbee]

Salvation NEVER was contingent upon behavior. There is ~none~ righteous ( Romans 3:10, cf Psalm 53:3, Romans 3:23, Proverbs 20:9, et. al. ).
If salvation were contingent upon behavior, NOBODY would be saved.
"Acceptance of Jesus" is a gift of God??? No one even seeks for God ( Romans 3:11 ). If the Lord waited around until someone accepted Him, NOBODY would be saved.

"For by grace you have been saved
through faith; and that not of yourselves,
it is the gift of God, and not as a result
of works" ( Ephesians 2:8 NASB )

This is what being "born again" is about. It's NOT of ourselves, but -rather- God changing us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation NEVER was contingent upon behavior. There is ~none~ righteous ( Romans 3:10, cf Psalm 53:3, Romans 3:23, Proverbs 20:9, et. al. ).
If salvation were contingent upon behavior, NOBODY would be saved.
"Acceptance of Jesus" is a gift of God??? No one even seeks for God ( Romans 3:11 ). If the Lord waited around until someone accepted Him, NOBODY would be saved.

"For by grace you have been saved
through faith; and that not of yourselves,
it is the gift of God, and not as a result
of works" ( Ephesians 2:8 NASB )

This is what being "born again" is about. It's NOT of ourselves, but -rather- God changing us.

So then it useless to preach the gospel then if it is all God. In fact preaching the gospel to an audience that they can be saved would be a lie because some of them may be destined to be unsaved. For no doubt the Calvinist preacher is preaching so as to convince people. No doubt Calvinists who write here do so in a way that they can convince others. But why even try if it is all God who makes a person see the truth?


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[ToBeLoved]

The verse you refer to was hardly published alone in my post.

It appears to me that you and I are not going to be able to discuss these things with any productivity.

I believe that that is ultimately the case because you have a vested emotional issue concerning what would be and would not be fair concerning election and predestination.

Perhaps I am wrong.

But so be it anyway.

If you have any further questions about what I or Calvinists believe - please feel free to ASK us exactly what we believe.

Speaking only for myself, I will be glad to explain exactly what I believe.

I'd much rather that - then have my beliefs misrepresented.

Again - I welcome any "questions" about what I believe.

As far as so called "Calvinists" - I'll do my best to forward to you what I believe to be their teachings.

I only had 5 minutes then, so I did only respond to one thing.
However, I do not appreciate you jumping to conclusions from my post that I was avoiding the other verses, because as I said earlier, I was on a work break.

It seems to me that above you are asking not to have your beliefs misrepresented, but the other half of your post is drawing conclusions about me, which I find ironic.

To ask questions of me would have been easy, but instead you draw your own conclusions. Then you finish your post about how people just need to ask and not misrepresent you, but that is exactly what you did to me. So you may be reaping what you sow in that.

Please do not tell me what you think about why I am doing anything. That makes for a bad conversation where I am constantly correcting incorrect assumptions and it is not a righteous thing to do.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In other words, there is no biblical basis for this use of parables, and as far as I can tell, you are the only living person who practices such a thing.

B I N G O!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Of course. No "rewording" to it.

That's what I say also.

And your point?

That in Calvinist believe God must do something to a person to make them open to God.

However, the Word tells us that we come to God in faith and we RECEIVE faith by hearing the Word of God.

Why on earth are you playing ping-pong with us when you do not agree with what they do? Seems to me you are injecting yourself into the conversation as some kind of mediator and to 'explain' things.

Why would we need that? Each side can ask each other questions directly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That particular "general idea" is absolutely incorrect.

I'm glad you brought that generally held misconception to my attention. It gives me an opportunity to set that misrepresentation aside - hopefully - once and for all.

What is correct, according to Calvinist beliefs - is that they have had their spirits made alive so that they can make a rational choice with a fully functioning spirit concerning what they believe and how they feel about the gospel.

Still, since there are no verses that teach that one is regenerated in order to believe, or that one is regenerated before they believe (whatever), the idea that God would regenerate one so that one will believe IS seen as being programmed, since in the Calvinist view one cannot believe until they are regenerated.

The real problem is the total lack of verses that indicate regeneration before faith. In fact, I've shown from Eph 2:5 that being "made alive" occurs WHEN one is saved. They go together. Even the grammar of 1 Jn 5:1 supports that idea.

And, when one considers Eph 2:8, we know that faith precedes being saved, which you've already agreed to.

So, believing precedes salvation and being made alive.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have never been dogmatic about exactly what "regeneration" means or exactly how it works. Nor have I been dogmatic about whether it is to be seen as a an instantaneous act or to be more properly viewed as a process of enlightenment of some kind.

By the way "no one" seeks after God as natural men. The scriptures couldn't be more clear about that.

"There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God" Romans 3:11

Yet the Bible is clear that God created mankind to seek Him, per Acts 17:25. Not Adam. From Adam. And all after Adam are born in sin. Yet mankind was created to seek Him.

And there are many Scriptures that tell us that unbelievers do seek God. I believe Rom 3:11 is in context with the next 2 verses, which are direct quotes from Psa 19:1-3 and 53:1-3, where the subject is atheists; those who say there is no God. Certainly athiests don't seek God.

But simply history proves that every culture on the face of the earth throughout all time has a concept of God and a system of how to appease God (religion). This is undeniable.

If there were entire cultures that were atheistic, you'd have a point.

If sister Lydia was seeking God it was only because God was at work in her beforehand "to will and to work for His good pleasure". (Philippians 2:13

No doubt. But God being "at work" doesn't equate to regeneration.

 

[ToBeLoved]

By the way "no one" seeks after God as natural men. The scriptures couldn't be more clear about that.

"There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God" Romans 3:11

If sister Lydia was seeking God it was only because God was at work in her beforehand "to will and to work for His good pleasure". (Philippians 2:13

Natural man does not seek after God that is correct.

But nautral man only needs to come to God in faith. And faith comes by hearing. Hearing the gospel and hearing the Word of God.

So, I'm not sure how your verse pertains to salvation, unless that was not your point.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So then it useless to preach the gospel then if it is all God. In fact preaching the gospel to an audience that they can be saved would be a lie because some of them may be destined to be unsaved. For no doubt the Calvinist preacher is preaching so as to convince people. No doubt Calvinists who write here do so in a way that they can convince others. But why even try if it is all God who makes a person see the truth?


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Come on, that is silly. We all know that God uses His Children to spread the gospel AND to tell people what the Word of God says. That is perfectly in alignment with faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is not a single molecule in the universe that God is not in control of. Here is just a sample. Is this overwhelming enough for you?

Ex. 4:11 And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

Ex. 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them...that you may know that I am the Lord."

Deut. 2:30 For the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

Deut. 7:6 For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Deut. 29:4-6 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. Yet I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the Lord your God.

Deut. 30:6 Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live.

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, I am He, and there is no god besides Me; it is I who puts to death and gives life. I have wounded, and it is I who heals; and there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Sam. 2:6-7 The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts.

Chron. 28:4 Yet the Lord, the God of Israel, chose me from all the house of my fathers to be king over Israel forever.

Ezra 1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom...

Neh. 9:7 Thou art the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, and gave him the name Abraham.

Ps. 22:9-10 Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb.

Ps. 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance.

Ps. 33:14,15 From His dwelling place He looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who understands all their works.

Ps. 47:3,4 He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet. He chooses our inheritance for us, the glory of Jacob whom He loves.

Ps. 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens; and His sovereignty rules over all.

Pr. 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Pr. 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Pr. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.

Pr. 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established.

Pr. 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?

Pr. 21:1 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Isaiah 27:3 I, the Lord, am its [the vineyard's] keeper; I water it every moment, lest anyone damage it; I guard it night and day.

Isaiah 46:9-11 For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, "My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure"; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

Isaiah 60:22 The smallest one will become a clan, and the least one a mighty nation. I, the Lord, will hasten it in its time.

Jer. 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

Jer. 10:23 I know, O Lord, that a man's way is not in himself; Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

Jer. 23:3 Then I Myself shall gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and shall bring them back to their pasture; and they will be fruitful and multiply.

Jer. 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.

Ezekiel 37:14 And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it," declares the Lord.

http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/SovereigntyScriptures.html

I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but I always appreciate verses on God's sovereignty. Thank you very much for your research.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Canaanite woman made her own parable and it was accepted.

Please making things up. Neither she nor Jesus spoke any parable. Jesus used a METAPHOR, not a parable. And she responded to His metaphor.

So no. You are wrong.

Back atcha.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Really? Are you being serious? No. She expounded upon Jesus's parable with a continued parable or example she made herself.

One more time. Neither the woman nor Jesus spoke ANY parable. Jesus used a METAPHOR and she responded to it.

No wonder you're so confused.

In fact, because of this parable..... Jesus said great was her faith (as a result in her making it) AND her daughter was healed of a devil that very hour. So no. You are seriously just not wanting to see it. ....

You are seriously confused.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You will reply no further because you know you are wrong. Jesus did not put the parable or example she made into her head. She was expounding upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own.

This is just getting very embarrassing for you. There was NO parable at all. Only a metaphor. You need to understand the difference.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

B I N G O!

And as I said before, the Canaanite woman's use of a parable of her own (that expounde upon Jesus's parable)disproves folks here by the fact that they can use parables. The only reason people here are not wanting to see it is because they know it will refute their false idea that they can sin and still be saved.


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[Bible Highlighter]

This is just getting very embarrassing for you. There was NO parable at all. Only a metaphor. You need to understand the difference.

First, of all, many Christians list Jesus's parables so as to include even quick comparisons of things (without a story). Second, the dictionary defines "parable" as being either a story or a statement or comment that can be used as a comparison or an anology.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parable

So no. This is just you not wanting to admit that OSAS is wrong, so you are putting up defenses so as not to see it.


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