Logical Problems with Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

You, apparently, simply do not agree that no one deserves such special grace because they are under the just judgment of God. That is what Calvinists believe because that is what is taught in the scriptures.

You, apparently, think that it would be unfair to give light to some and pass others by.

Calvinists and I (and God as I read it) would disagree. God owes none of us anything but Hell.

I must add here that, although we all believe that not all will be saved by the atonement in the end, I do not subscribe to limited atonement as it often presented by Calvinists.

I know what 'all' means. And Jesus tells us that ALL who come to Him in faith are saved. That faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

God does not owe us anything but hell, HOWEVER that is what grace is. Our unmerited favor with God that He sent His Son to die for the sins of ALL the world. That WHOMEVER comes to Him for the forgiveness of sins is saved.

So I believe in grace. I believe that we deserve hell. I believe ALL who come to Him in faith are saved.

Also, I know what Calvinists believe. So please stop using that line on everyone that does not agree with you.

Your doctrine is confusing as you flip flop back and forth between what you agree with Calvinists about and what you disagree with. I don't need to hear how your beliefs relate to someone elses. Just state your beliefs and make the posts shorter and more concise and less confusing, because going back and forth is confusing.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I know what 'all' means. And Jesus tells us that ALL

Yes and I fully agreed with you when you said, "the Word tells us that ALL who COME to Him in faith are saved. Notice the 'all' and 'come to Him' in faith."

But natural men are spiritually dead. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead". Jesus tells us that no natural man can come to Him unless the Father draws that man. Paul tells us that natural men cannot even understand the things of God and also that no natural man seeks after God.

Therein, as Will Shakespeare would say, lies the rub.

Calvinist have simply done their best to incorporate these truths and many others into their theology. You, apparently, like to pick and choose what doctrines you like rather than approach the entire scripture systematically.

I believe that it is not an accident that almost every thorough systematic theology that tackles soteriology comes to the same conclusions, more or less than the Reformed scholars of old.

We do not choose to let our emotions rule our theology as do many others.

Of course you can disagree with us as you wish. Obviously you do. I'm sure you have your reasons.

I just hope it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you misunderstand the teaching of others - which seems to be the case here.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But natural men are spiritually dead. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead" .

So you using that as proof text? Because that was Jesus, God Himself with them, teaching them. He is the way to spiritual life. This was not just any situation. He said a similar thing to Mary and Martha when Martha was saying that Mary was not helping her.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The explanation is simple. The "not your own doing" relates back to "have been saved". We do not save ourselves. God saves us by grace. The gift of God is also salvation, just as eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23.

The boasting isn't about believing in Christ. It's about boasting that you've saved yourself. That's why it (salvation) is "not a result of works".

The phrase "not a result of works" directly relates not your own doing and gift of God to salvation, and not faith.

Paul contrasts works and faith in Rom 4:4,5 as well.

iow, Eph 2:8,9 says we are saved through faith and not by works. Which is grace. We can't earn it, and we sure don't deserve it.

The subject of Eph 2:8 is salvation. Which is by grace. Which is through faith. Not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So you using that as proof text? Because that was Jesus, God Himself with them, teaching them. He is the way to spiritual life. This was not just any situation. He said a similar thing to Mary and Martha when Martha was saying that Mary was not helping her.

The verse you refer to was hardly published alone in my post.

It appears to me that you and I are not going to be able to discuss these things with any productivity.

I believe that that is ultimately the case because you have a vested emotional issue concerning what would be and would not be fair concerning election and predestination.

Perhaps I am wrong.

But so be it anyway.

If you have any further questions about what I or Calvinists believe - please feel free to ASK us exactly what we believe.

Speaking only for myself, I will be glad to explain exactly what I believe.

I'd much rather that - then have my beliefs misrepresented.

Again - I welcome any "questions" about what I believe.

As far as so called "Calvinists" - I'll do my best to forward to you what I believe to be their teachings.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Marvin Knox said: ↑

"I have never heard a Calvinist refer to himself and the elect as a robots or a puppets."


I'm not wanting to be flippant - but the clearest way to express this is to say that I am looking right at the words"regenerated before they can have faith" and I don't see where they say that those so regenerated become robots or puppets. Nor do I see where anyone could draw that conclusion just because some had his spirit regenerated (assuming were Calvinists are correct in that assertion).

The general idea is that since the Calvinist claim is that one must be regenerated in order to believe (or some such wording) they have been "programmed" to believe by said regeneration.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Maybe you are not thinking about this deeply then.

If one must be regenerated BY GOD, before coming to faith, then not all can come to faith, but only those chosen by God.

I do not believe that God hand chooses. I beleive that God is Omnipotent, in that He knows all so He knows what man in the end chooses, but I do not believe that God Himself only chooses some.

Exactly! There are no verses that teach that God chooses who will believe, which is the final conclusion of Calvinist election.

However, the Bible tells us who God chooses to save. 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Pretty clear: God is pleased (that a choice He has made) to save those who believe.

And Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers (us) to be holy and blameless.

Believers have been chosen or elected for service. That's what election is all about. Same as Israel in the OT. That nation was chosen for service to God. Were all of them saved? Hardly. But the nation was chosen to preserve God's Word and share it with others, which they repeatedly failed to do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Being unable to bring themselves to God prior to Him beginning the saving work within them does not make them a puppet. Grace first, then faith, that's all we're saying.

The Bible is clear about those who refuse to believe: Acts 14:2, 19:9, 2 Thess 2:10, Rev 16:9,11.

To refuse clearly implies ability. Otherwise, refusing to do something one is not capable of doing is ridiculous.

iow, one cannot refuse to do what one cannot do. One can only refuse to do what they are able but unwilling to do.

Therefore, the Calvinist view of total depravity, that includes unbelievers being incapable of believing the gospel is not supported by Scripture

 

[FreeGrace2]

Grace comes in many forms not the least of which is illustrated in the God sovereign action in the case of Lydia in the book of acts.

"....the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

I believe that many Calvinists would point to this as a perfect illustration of their teaching that God regenerates in order that a person can believe.

How does one get "regenerated" from "opened"? They aren't equivalent at all.

It seems much more reasonable to understand "opened her heart" to refer to understanding the issue of the gospel. How can one believe if they do not understand? They can't. iow, God made the gospel clear to her. Why? She was a worshiper of God. She was seeking Him and He never fails to be found by those who seek Him. Acts 17:26.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The general idea is that since the Calvinist claim is that one must be regenerated in order to believe (or some such wording) they have been "programmed" to believe by said regeneration.

That particular "general idea" is absolutely incorrect.

I'm glad you brought that generally held misconception to my attention. It gives me an opportunity to set that misrepresentation aside - hopefully - once and for all.

What is correct, according to Calvinist beliefs - is that they have had their spirits made alive so that they can make a rational choice with a fully functioning spirit concerning what they believe and how they feel about the gospel.

 

[Marvin Knox]

How does one get "regenerated" from "opened"? They aren't equivalent at all.

It seems much more reasonable to understand "opened her heart" to refer to understanding the issue of the gospel. How can one believe if they do not understand? They can't. iow, God made the gospel clear to her. Why? She was a worshiper of God. She was seeking Him and He never fails to be found by those who seek Him. Acts 17:26.

I have never been dogmatic about exactly what "regeneration" means or exactly how it works. Nor have I been dogmatic about whether it is to be seen as a an instantaneous act or to be more properly viewed as a process of enlightenment of some kind.

By the way "no one" seeks after God as natural men. The scriptures couldn't be more clear about that.

"There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God" Romans 3:11

If sister Lydia was seeking God it was only because God was at work in her beforehand "to will and to work for His good pleasure". (Philippians 2:13

 

[ToBeLoved]

That particular "general idea" is absolutely incorrect.

I'm glad you brought that generally held misconception to my attention. It gives me an opportunity to set that misrepresentation aside - hopefully - once and for all.

What is correct, according to Calvinist beliefs - is that they have had their spirits made alive so that they can make a rational choice with a fully functioning spirit concerning what they believe and how they feel about the gospel.

This is what I said and what he said also. You are just rewording it and making it seem different.

Who do Calvinist believe GIVES them this fully functioning spirit? God.

That's exactly what we said.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Who do Calvinist believe GIVES them this fully functioning spirit? God.

That's exactly what we said.

Of course. No "rewording" to it.

That's what I say also.

And your point?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All that God predestines to happen is good. No one (including all Calvinists so far as I know) asserts otherwise.

But God has decreed that that good often come about through the evil actions of men and angel. He has given us abundant examples of this principle in the scriptures. No the least of them are the evil actions of Josephs brothers and the evil actions of those who crucified our Lord.

Stop thinking of the living source of all things like the president. Not only don't we get to vote on God - He is altogether different from the president.

I'm sure you've heard that :
“My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

And:
"...............You thought that I was just like you........." Psalm 50:21

No. God manipulates the evil that comes about by man and or angels. God can no more command evil to take place than for the sun not to be hot. What you propose is madness to the highest degree and goes against the very goodness of God. You are painting God in a bad light; And it is wrong.

Can you make a parable to illustrate this truth?
We both know you cannot anymore than your parable supported the goodness of OSAS.
For the Scriptures say, God is love.
The Scriptures also say there is no darkness in God.


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[jimmyjimmy]

Did Jesus answer everyone? No. Did Jesus always give a straight or direct answer to everyone so that they would understand? No. Anyways, I believe my answer is the solution to your question in an indirect way. You are seeking for a specific command in order for their to be some kind of approval to do so. I believer there is a command that would cover us using parables, but it is not the "hit you over the head" type command you are probably looking for.


...

In other words, there is no biblical basis for this use of parables, and as far as I can tell, you are the only living person who practices such a thing.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The problem with thinking that God micro-manages His human creation is no where in the Bible in any bible chapter.

Since the beginning Adam and Eve had free-will. God gave them SO MUCH free-will that sin entered the human race. Let us remember that Adam and Eve walked in PERFECT communion with God. Before sin, God was talking to them and communing with them in the garden.

Now there are a limited number of situations that God did intervene in some way, but that is the exception.

So SHOW ME with overwhelming evidence just how much God micro-manages His creation throughout the Bible. Even in the OT, God let Israel many times disobey Him, with consequences of course, but disobey they did.

So let's stop talking about theory for a while and let us get into the Bible and actual people and how Calvinism is represented through the people of the Bible.

This should be a new and interesting aspect that I believe will show Calvinism to be in error.

There is not a single molecule in the universe that God is not in control of. Here is just a sample. Is this overwhelming enough for you?

Ex. 4:11 And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

Ex. 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them...that you may know that I am the Lord."

Deut. 2:30 For the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

Deut. 7:6 For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Deut. 29:4-6 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. Yet I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the Lord your God.

Deut. 30:6 Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live.

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, I am He, and there is no god besides Me; it is I who puts to death and gives life. I have wounded, and it is I who heals; and there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Sam. 2:6-7 The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts.

Chron. 28:4 Yet the Lord, the God of Israel, chose me from all the house of my fathers to be king over Israel forever.

Ezra 1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom...

Neh. 9:7 Thou art the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, and gave him the name Abraham.

Ps. 22:9-10 Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb.

Ps. 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance.

Ps. 33:14,15 From His dwelling place He looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who understands all their works.

Ps. 47:3,4 He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet. He chooses our inheritance for us, the glory of Jacob whom He loves.

Ps. 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens; and His sovereignty rules over all.

Pr. 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Pr. 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Pr. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.

Pr. 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established.

Pr. 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?

Pr. 21:1 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Isaiah 27:3 I, the Lord, am its [the vineyard's] keeper; I water it every moment, lest anyone damage it; I guard it night and day.

Isaiah 46:9-11 For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, "My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure"; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

Isaiah 60:22 The smallest one will become a clan, and the least one a mighty nation. I, the Lord, will hasten it in its time.

Jer. 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

Jer. 10:23 I know, O Lord, that a man's way is not in himself; Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

Jer. 23:3 Then I Myself shall gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and shall bring them back to their pasture; and they will be fruitful and multiply.

Jer. 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.

Ezekiel 37:14 And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it," declares the Lord.

http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/SovereigntyScriptures.html

 

[stage five]

There is not a single molecule in the universe that God is not in control of. Here is just a sample. Is this overwhelming enough for you?

Ex. 4:11 And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

Ex. 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them...that you may know that I am the Lord."

Deut. 2:30 For the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

Deut. 7:6 For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Deut. 29:4-6 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. Yet I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the Lord your God.

Deut. 30:6 Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live.

Deut. 32:39 See now that I, I am He, and there is no god besides Me; it is I who puts to death and gives life. I have wounded, and it is I who heals; and there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Sam. 2:6-7 The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts.

Chron. 28:4 Yet the Lord, the God of Israel, chose me from all the house of my fathers to be king over Israel forever.

Ezra 1:1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom...

Neh. 9:7 Thou art the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, and gave him the name Abraham.

Ps. 22:9-10 Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb.

Ps. 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance.

Ps. 33:14,15 From His dwelling place He looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who understands all their works.

Ps. 47:3,4 He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet. He chooses our inheritance for us, the glory of Jacob whom He loves.

Ps. 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens; and His sovereignty rules over all.

Pr. 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Pr. 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Pr. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.

Pr. 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established.

Pr. 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?

Pr. 21:1 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Isaiah 27:3 I, the Lord, am its [the vineyard's] keeper; I water it every moment, lest anyone damage it; I guard it night and day.

Isaiah 46:9-11 For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, "My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure"; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

Isaiah 60:22 The smallest one will become a clan, and the least one a mighty nation. I, the Lord, will hasten it in its time.

Jer. 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

Jer. 10:23 I know, O Lord, that a man's way is not in himself; Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

Jer. 23:3 Then I Myself shall gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and shall bring them back to their pasture; and they will be fruitful and multiply.

Jer. 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.

Ezekiel 37:14 And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it," declares the Lord.

http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/SovereigntyScriptures.html

Mind is not material.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In other words, there is no biblical basis for this use of parables, and as far as I can tell, you are the only living person who practices such a thing.

The Canaanite woman made her own parable and it was accepted. So no. You are wrong. I mean stop and think for a moment. Jesus made parables. They were stories based in the real world (Which were true) that illustrated a spiritual truth. This lets us know that God is a God of order and logic. This makes sense because God did after all create the universe which is based on consistent laws that are orderly and logical. So no. The ONLY reason..... you are resistant against their use is because they refute your belief. For if for a second you found that they helped to serve your belief in some way.... you would be defending their use. So lets stop acting like you don't think a believer today can use a parable (Like the Canaanite woman did). To suggest otherwise is absolutely ridiculous and just shows that you are unwilling to see what is plainly written in the Bible.


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[jimmyjimmy]

The Canaanite woman made her own parable and it was accepted. So no. You are wrong.


...

“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

That's your proof text?! That is not a parable! She was just replying to what Jesus said, "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

Where are you getting these ideas from?! I would love to know which church you are a member of. . .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have never been dogmatic about exactly what "regeneration" means or exactly how it works. Nor have I been dogmatic about whether it is to be seen as a an instantaneous act or to be more properly viewed as a process of enlightenment of some kind.

By the way "no one" seeks after God as natural men. The scriptures couldn't be more clear about that.

"There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God" Romans 3:11

If sister Lydia was seeking God it was only because God was at work in her beforehand "to will and to work for His good pleasure". (Philippians 2:13

Then that means there is a contradiction in the Bible. Because the Bible also says,

"Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive" (Ezekiel 18:27).

Anyways, the passage you are reading is a quote from Psalm 14. Psalms are poetic and not to be always taken literally. Also, Psalm 14 was talking to the heathen Gentile who said there is no God. But even if you wanted to take this Psalm literally, it is very possible that the Gentiles at the moment of the writing of David writing such a text did not believe God. But that does not mean that the Ninevites did not repent at the preaching of Jonah. That does not mean Rahab did not side with the Lord in fear of what He would do to the city she was living in. But if you want to see any other alternative (because your belief), then these other texts should not really matter to you at all. You will believe (what you want to believe despite what the rest of the Bible says).


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