Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

I've studied this back and forth, up and down.

All His sheep have eternal life. Both rebels and those who follow faithfully.

If you disagree, I suggest you do a study on the seal of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Marvin Knox]

No, I was referring to the idea that I see posted now and then that if we accept that God has his Elect, or even that he is sovereign or knows the future, that it follows that every last thing that is done--every decision made of any sort by the Elect--is God doing it and they are merely moved robotically by him.

Hmm. I have the opposite impression.

I know, but that's the answer to your question about why I made mention of this point.

Perhaps we are talking past one another. Maybe I'm not understanding you. I'm not really sure. But I'll try to clarify what I find about people who use the "robotic" term and such.

I have never heard a Calvinist refer to himself and the elect as a robots or a puppets.

I have many time heard other, non-Calvinists, assert that God's sovereignty in predestining all that happens amounts only to robotics and puppetry.

I have never heard it said by a Calvinist that "every last thing that is done--every decision made of any sort by the Elect--is God doing it and they are merely moved robotically by him."

Again - I have heard it said by non-Calvinists that it has to amount to that if we believe in election.

Are you saying that last thing or are we actually agreeing with one another?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I am confused if you are agreeing with what I wrote and you responded to or are disagreeing.
Somehow the words you have used are confusing.

I think it's a little of both.

When you said, "The problem with thinking that God micro-manages His human creation is no where in the Bible in any bible chapter" - I disagreed with you and gave you examples of His "micro management" of His human creations from the scriptures.

When you talked about the abundant free will of Adam and Eve I completely agree with you. I said that this free will is not incompatible with His providential control of His creation - including men.

When you said, "show me with overwhelming evidence just how much God micro-manages His creation throughout the Bible" I provided several examples from both the O.T. and N.T, and also gave you some scriptures about the indwelling and accomplishing Word of God to show just how closely He is involved in everything that exists or is happening.

You ask that we "stop talking about theory for a while and let us get into the Bible and actual people and how Calvinism is represented through the people of the Bible" - so that is exactly what I did.

Sorry if I wasn't clear to you.

By the way Gil's post #2721 lays things out in a way I find satisfactory. His is more of a general picture than was mine. But since you were, it seemed to me, denying in particular the idea that God "micro manages" men - I chose to go at the same thing that Gil did, but from a more "micro" perspective.

 

[Marvin Knox]

.....As for God's Sovereignty:

1. God is Sovereign over Love.
God is the very embodiment of love itself. For God so loved the world that He gaves His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

2. God is Sovereign over creation.
The Lord holds all things together by the word of His power.

3. God is Sovereign over the Future.
God knows all future events that will ever happen. There are certain events that God has prophesied that will come to pass with perfect clock work precision.

3. God is Sovereign over all Knowledge.
God is infinite in knowledge and wisdom and He knows all things and He is wise beyond measure. God has the very hairs on our head numbered.

4. God is Sovereign over bad things done by others and He can in turn change those bad things around for a greater purpose for good.
God is not the author of evil (man is), but the Lord our God can manipulate the evil (that man chose to bring into existence) and use it for His greater good or plans. All things work together for good to them that love God. We see this both in the story of Joseph, and in the book of Job, etc.

5. God is Sovereign over the suffering of His people and uses such suffering to glorify the Son.
God can make his saints to go thru certain challenges or tribulations in this life so as to glorify the life that Christ lived (Who also was suffered, and was obedient unto the Father unto death).

6. God is Sovereign over all events that take place.
Nothing can happen in this world without God allowing it. But God allowing something to come to pass does not equate with God always agreeing with that particular action, though. For example: God allowing man's sinfulness to continue in the present does not mean God is decreeing or fore-ordaining such evil. God is merely allowing it to happen so as to bring in more sons to glory. Meaning, God is allowing more and more time for sinners to repent (of their own free will choice so as to fill up God's Kingdom with His people).

7. God is Sovereign over nations.
God uses secular leaders and nations for his glory. This would include God using these nation's army or police so as to punish evil or wickedness in this world (Even though the final Judgement of every crime will be done at the Great White Throne Judgment and the Judgment Seat of Christ). For example: God used Assyria as a way to chasten Israel for their choice in being sinful. Also see Romans 13.

8. God is Sovereign over time and space.
God is larger than this physical reality and He can be present in all locations at one time.

9. God is Sovereign over life and death.
God is in control of who lives and who dies. For a person's very steps are numbered.

10. God is Sovereign as King and Ruler of all.
There is nobody that is above God in authority. God rules over all things. He is above all things; And there is no authority or kingdom that can ever overthrow His. God is above all and He rules all with great power and wisdom. God sits up high upon a throne in Heaven and angels bow down to Him in his holiness.

11. God is Sovereign in Holiness.
God is perfect in holiness and goodness. There is no darkness in God. God is perfectly moral and good in all that He does. This means that God working in His people's lives should reflect His holiness and goodness.

I am sure there may be more. But this is all I can think of on such short notice. ....

I agree with almost all of this. I believe that any Calvinist worth His salt would also.

It may only be a matter of semantics. But when you say then when God "allows" evil things to happen it doesn't amount to God's "fore-ordaining" that that evil take place - I must take a bit of exception.

If God knows what men and angels will absolutely do under certain circumstances - and then He chooses to bring a particular circumstance in existence with them there - it does indeed amount to God's "fore-ordaining" and "predestining" those things that they do to take place.

I suppose - like most people who disagree with this idea - you are only trying to protect the fact that God is not the "author" of evil (men and angels are). But really - God is able to protect His holiness just fine without our denying His absolute sovereignty in all that happens including evil.

The fact is that God knew from before creation every possible scenario of history and every combination of scenarios. His knowledge is absolutely infinite.

But He had to choose which one of those infinitely intricate scenarios would suit His purpose for the age. He then had to put it into motion and, not only that, but involve Himself at a myriad of levels to be sure that His chosen, God ordained plan goes exactly how it desires it to go.

If the Bible pictured a God who just created and then watched and occasionally tweaked that creation - that would be one thing.

But the scriptures do not leave us with that option regarding the omniscient, omnipresent, providentially controlling creator of all things with whom we have to do.

P.S.
I fully agree with that last point concerning God's spiritual protection of believers. That's the doctrine of eternal security and the sealing of the Holy Spirit and I full agree with it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for luck, karma, or coincidence or random chance:

Well, there is no such thing.

Evolutionists believe that the universe came about by random chance. So no. If you were a betting man on this point, you would lose, my friend. But I think in this case you would be happy to lose because we are on agreement on a particular truth that is important to know.

As for God's Sovereignty:

1. God is Sovereign over Love.
God is the very embodiment of love itself. For God so loved the world that He gaves His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

2. God is Sovereign over creation.
The Lord holds all things together by the word of His power.

3. God is Sovereign over the Future.
God knows all future events that will ever happen. There are certain events that God has prophesied that will come to pass with perfect clock work precision.

3. God is Sovereign over all Knowledge.
God is infinite in knowledge and wisdom and He knows all things and He is wise beyond measure. God has the very hairs on our head numbered.

4. God is Sovereign over bad things done by others and He can in turn change those bad things around for a greater purpose for good. God is not the author of evil (man is), but the Lord our God can manipulate the evil (that man chose to bring into existence) and use it for His greater good or plans. All things work together for good to them that love God. We see this both in the story of Joseph, and in the book of Job, etc.

5. God is Sovereign over the suffering of His people and uses such suffering to glorify the Son. God can make his saints to go thru certain challenges or tribulations in this life so as to glorify the life that Christ lived (Who also was suffered, and was obedient unto the Father unto death).

6. God is Sovereign over all events that take place. Nothing can happen in this world without God allowing it. But God allowing something to come to pass does not equate with God always agreeing with that particular action, though. For example: God allowing man's sinfulness to continue in the present does not mean God is decreeing or fore-ordaining such evil. God is merely allowing it to happen so as to bring in more sons to glory. Meaning, God is allowing more and more time for sinners to repent (of their own free will choice so as to fill up God's Kingdom with His people).

7. God is Sovereign over nations.
God uses secular leaders and nations for his glory. This would include God using these nation's army or police so as to punish evil or wickedness in this world (Even though the final Judgement of every crime will be done at the Great White Throne Judgment and the Judgment Seat of Christ). For example: God used Assyria as a way to chasten Israel for their choice in being sinful. Also see Romans 13.

8. God is Sovereign over time and space.
God is larger than this physical reality and He can be present in all locations at one time.

9. God is Sovereign over life and death.
God is in control of who lives and who dies. For a person's very steps are numbered.

10. God is Sovereign as King and Ruler of all.
There is nobody that is above God in authority. God rules over all things. He is above all things; And there is no authority or kingdom that can ever overthrow His. God is above all and He rules all with great power and wisdom. God sits up high upon a throne in Heaven and angels bow down to Him in his holiness.

11. God is Sovereign in Holiness.
God is perfect in holiness and goodness. There is no darkness in God. God is perfectly moral and good in all that He does. This means that God working in His people's lives should reflect His holiness and goodness.

12. God is Sovereign over our protection; Especially if we have faith in such protection (According to His Word). This would be both spiritual protection and physical protection.

I am sure there may be more. But this is all I can think at the current moment within the limited time I have.


....

Added one more to the list just now.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have never heard a Calvinist refer to himself and the elect as a robots or a puppets.

To say that a person needs to be regenerated before they can have faith is to say exactly this.

Faith is what brings us to God. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and the gospel.

 

[GillDouglas]

To say that a person needs to be regenerated before they can have faith is to say exactly this.

Faith is what brings us to God. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and the gospel.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree with almost all of this. I believe that any Calvinist worth His salt would also.

It may only be a matter of semantics. But when you say then when God "allows" evil things to happen it doesn't amount to God's "fore-ordaining" that that evil take place - I must take a bit of exception.

If God knows what men and angels will absolutely do under certain circumstances - and then He chooses to bring a particular circumstance in existence with them there - it does indeed amount to God's "fore-ordaining" and "predestining" those things that they do.

I suppose - like most people who disagree with this idea - you are only trying to protect the fact that God is not the "author" of evil (men and angels are). But really - God is able to protect His holiness just fine without our denying His absolute sovereignty in all that happens including evil.

To decree or foreordain something means you are putting your stamp of approval upon it. God can no more agree with evil than for rain not to be wet.

So a good king can decree for evil to take place and still be good? That does not make any sense. That would be like electing a president based on the fact that he is decreeing evil things to take place for us. Would you vote for a president like that? For there is a difference between God prophesying evil or allowing evil to take place versus giving your thumbs up towards it.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

I understand this stance whole heartedly. When first coming to understand His sovereignty and our will I asked "How can a person be a free and responsible child of God if their actions have been predestined from eternity?" If we are convinced of the existence of God and of Him having the Power by which all things exist and are controlled, we are forced to figure out where the finite human will can find true and free expression under the authority of an Infinite Ruler. The answer is simple in that the same God who has ordained all events has also ordained human liberty.

Man are not robots, as many claim we state. In the Divine plan, which is infinite in variety and complexity, which reaches from everlasting to everlasting, and which includes the billions of free wills who act under His watchful eye, God has ordained that human beings shall keep this liberty under His sovereignty. The Scripture writers themselves did not hesitate to affirm the absolute sway of God over the thoughts and intents of the heart, and they felt no embarrassment to include the acts of their free agency within His all-embracing plan.

Think of God like the sole foreman/head of a work site. He develops the plan of how a building will turn out. He hires the carpenters, masons, plumbers, electricians, etc. to do the work. They're not forced to do the work, but the foreman offers the necessary encouragement to do so so the men work freely and gladly. His will is primary and theirs are secondary in the construction of the building. The building will end up as the foreman intended and planned for, and the workers doing the roles they were hired for. He directs the actions without infringing upon the freedoms or responsibilities of the individidual.

Men freely act, according to His plan, unconsciously fulfilling Divine prophecy. There are many Biblical examples of this, one I find the best is Peter's denial of Jesus after He told Him specifically what He was going to do.

I believe that God's will will overridingly always prevail, but I believe that God has an overall will.

For instance, if person A is a saved person stumbling in faith, God might bring another Christian by inspiration by the Holy Spirit and put them in that other person's realm of influence. On the other hand, if person A has a strong faith, person A may be put in another person's realm of influence.

So, I think that each person, dependent on the decisons that they make throughout their life, may be used by God in ways. Some of those ways may be to influence someone not do do something, but if they are positive, they may be used to positively influence someone else. I believe the Holy Spirit works out all for good kindof on the fly by seeing what Christ's own are doing and using them for God's will by either positively or even negatively influencing others because we can learn just as easily by negative experiences. Like seeing someone else make a mistake and then deciding what not to do in our own lives or our compassion and love may come through when we see another that is fallen and hurting.

God's will is done through His people. But I don't think that is like controlled a head of time. I think that is one of the reason's why we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, to move us to the left or right in these situations. To those who are spiritually discerned and listening. Just as God uses us and His Word to spread the gospel. God has indicated that He will not return until everyone has heard the gospel. That is true. However, I do not believe that God has that exactly mapped out. He will just adjust with His children to make sure His overall will happens.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin Knox said: ↑

"I have never heard a Calvinist refer to himself and the elect as a robots or a puppets."

To say that a person needs to be regenerated before they can have faith is to say exactly this.

Faith is what brings us to God. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and the gospel.

I'm not wanting to be flippant - but the clearest way to express this is to say that I am looking right at the words"regenerated before they can have faith" and I don't see where they say that those so regenerated become robots or puppets. Nor do I see where anyone could draw that conclusion just because some had his spirit regenerated (assuming were Calvinists are correct in that assertion).

 

[ToBeLoved]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

It is the grace of God and Jesus death on the cross for man's sin that is the gift of God. Didn't the Father send His Son? Did the Son sin?

And each person has a measure of faith.

Romans 12:3
For I say to every man that is among you, through the grace given unto me, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

So, then each person is saved? No, of course not.

Faith comes by hearing. Hearing the Word of God.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Marvin Knox said: ↑

"I have never heard a Calvinist refer to himself and the elect as a robots or a puppets."


I'm not wanting to be flippant - but the clearest way to express this is to say that I am looking right at the words"regenerated before they can have faith" and I don't see where they say that those so regenerated become robots or puppets. Nor do I see where anyone could draw that conclusion just because some had his spirit regenerated (assuming were Calvinists are correct in that assertion).

Oh. So you think that a Calvinist saying that no one comes to God in faith, but must be regenerated by God first and then elect to come to faith is not saying that they are puppets?

I beg to differ. If one cannot have faith, when faith comes by hearing the word of God, unless they are elect to be regenerated first, then they are a puppet

 

[ToBeLoved]

Marvin Knox said: ↑

"I have never heard a Calvinist refer to himself and the elect as a robots or a puppets."


I'm not wanting to be flippant - but the clearest way to express this is to say that I am looking right at the words"regenerated before they can have faith" and I don't see where they say that those so regenerated become robots or puppets. Nor do I see where anyone could draw that conclusion just because some had his spirit regenerated (assuming were Calvinists are correct in that assertion).

Maybe you are not thinking about this deeply then.

If one must be regenerated BY GOD, before coming to faith, then not all can come to faith, but only those chosen by God.

I do not believe that God hand chooses. I beleive that God is Omnipotent, in that He knows all so He knows what man in the end chooses, but I do not believe that God Himself only chooses some.

 

[GillDouglas]

Oh. So you think that a Calvinist saying that no one comes to God in faith, but must be regenerated by God first and then elect to come to faith is not saying that they are puppets?

I beg to differ. If one cannot have faith, when faith comes by hearing the word of God, unless they are elect to be regenerated first, then they are a puppet

Being unable to bring themselves to God prior to Him beginning the saving work within them does not make them a puppet. Grace first, then faith, that's all we're saying.

 

[Marvin Knox]

To decree or foreordain something means you are putting your stamp of approval upon it. God can no more agree with evil than for rain not to be wet.

So a good king can decree for evil to take place and still be good? That does not make any sense. That would be like electing a president based on the fact that he is decreeing evil things to take place for us. Would you vote for a president like that? For there is a difference between God prophesying evil or allowing evil to take place versus giving your thumbs up towards it. ...

All that God predestines to happen is good. No one (including all Calvinists so far as I know) asserts otherwise.

But God has decreed that that good often come about through the evil actions of men and angel. He has given us abundant examples of this principle in the scriptures. No the least of them are the evil actions of Josephs brothers and the evil actions of those who crucified our Lord.

Stop thinking of the living source of all things like the president. Not only don't we get to vote on God - He is altogether different from the president.

I'm sure you've heard that :
“My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

And:
"...............You thought that I was just like you........." Psalm 50:21

 

[ToBeLoved]

Being unable to bring themselves to God prior to Him beginning the saving work within them does not make them a puppet. Grace first, then faith, that's all we're saying.

Grace is that Jesus died to save all that come to Him in faith by the finished work on the cross. That is grace. The option of being saved.

Grace is not some pre regenerative process that God does. Maybe you don't understand grace

 

[Marvin Knox]

Maybe you are not thinking about this deeply then.

If one must be regenerated BY GOD, before coming to faith, then not all can come to faith, but only those chosen by God.

I do not believe that God hand chooses. I beleive that God is Omnipotent, in that He knows all so He knows what man in the end chooses, but I do not believe that God Himself only chooses some.

You are mixing a couple of different doctrines here and thus not really making sense IMO. I have not commented this time around on the doctrine of election and that was not the subject of our conversation. They are related doctrines to be sure, as are most doctrines. But the doctrines of election and the concurrent actions of God and men are not the same thing in and of themselves.

Oh. So you think that a Calvinist saying that no one comes to God in faith, but must be regenerated by God first and then elect to come to faith is not saying that they are puppets?

I beg to differ. If one cannot have faith, when faith comes by hearing the word of God, unless they are elect to be regenerated first, then they are a puppet

That is your opinion. But it is not logical to equate a regenerated spirit with a puppet as you are doing.

You seem to think that I believe that all regenerated men have their free wills taken away. I do not.

On the contrary (again, assuming that Calvinists are right) regenerated men have their free wills re-established not the other way around as you assert.

You seem to need a few lessons on exactly what Calvinists believe. We've talked about that before as I remember it.

Beside that - as with your bringing up election before - we weren't talking at all about the order of regeneration as believed by Calvinists. You just sort of morphed into it.

Which is OK - just do realize that you are doing that kind of thing and that it makes for a rather disjointed conversation.

By the way - you told Gill that - "Grace is that Jesus died to save all that come to Him in faith by the finished work on the cross. That is grace. The option of being saved. Grace is not some pre regenerative process that God does. Maybe you don't understand grace."

Grace comes in many forms not the least of which is illustrated in the God sovereign action in the case of Lydia in the book of acts.

"....the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

I believe that many Calvinists would point to this as a perfect illustration of their teaching that God regenerates in order that a person can believe.

 

[ToBeLoved]

To decree or foreordain something means you are putting your stamp of approval upon it. God can no more agree with evil than for rain not to be wet.

So a good king can decree for evil to take place and still be good? That does not make any sense. That would be like electing a president based on the fact that he is decreeing evil things to take place for us. Would you vote for a president like that? For there is a difference between God prophesying evil or allowing evil to take place versus giving your thumbs up towards it.


...

That is free-will Jason. God allows us to have free-will so he does not put His stamp of approval on our sins, but gives us a way through His Son to have our sins forgiven. After our sin has been forgiven, it is cast as far as the east is from the west. It is gone. So I think you have it wrong about saved people who sin, but you know that already.

It's not that we do, it is that His Son did.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You are mixing a couple of different doctrines here and thus not really making sense IMO. I have not commented this time around on the doctrine of election and that was not the subject of our conversation. They are related doctrines to be sure, as are most doctrines. But the doctrines of election and the concurrent actions of God and men are not the same thing in and of themselves.

That is your opinion. But it is not logical to equate a regenerated spirit with a puppet as you are doing.

You seem to think that I believe that all regenerated men have their free wills taken away. I do not.

On the contrary (again, assuming that Calvinists are right) regenerated men have their free wills re-established not the other way around as you assert.

You seem to need a few lessons on exactly what Calvinists believe. We've talked about that before as I remember it.

Beside that - as with your bringing up election before - we weren't talking at all about the order of regeneration as believed by Calvinists. You just sort of morphed into it.

Which is OK - just do realize that you are doing that kind of thing and that it makes for a rather disjointed conversation.

I don't think you get my point.

If a Calvinist thinks that God must do something to man, first. Then it is God who is choosing because God has to do something first. Does that make sense to you?

That is the problem, because the Word tells us that ALL who COME to Him in faith are saved. Notice the 'all' and 'come to Him' in faith.

So, they really are two very different things. If you cannot see that in it's simplicity than there is nothing else anyone can say.

It's really not that difficult. It's quite a simple concept. Either God brings someone He chooses, or a person chooses God by faith and comes to Him in that faith.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don't think you get my point.

If a Calvinist thinks that God must do something to man, first. Then it is God who is choosing because God has to do something first. Does that make sense to you?

Of course.

That is the problem, because the Word tells us that ALL who COME to Him in faith are saved. Notice the 'all' and 'come to Him' in faith.

It is just as you say. All Calvinists (and me as well) believe and teach "that ALL who COME to Him in faith are saved."

Again, you seem to not know exactly what Calvinists teach.

.......... It's really not that difficult. It's quite a simple concept. Either God brings someone He chooses, or a person chooses God by faith and comes to Him in that faith.

You're right. It isn't all that difficult.

Nor is it a matter of "either/or". It's a matter of both.

A person who, according to Jesus, cannot come to Him because He cannot understand in his spirit because he is spiritually dead --- is made spiritually alive by the grace of God and thereby made able to understand. That person then exercises his new found freedom of the will by coming to Jesus.

It is very simple to understand.

You, apparently, simply do not agree that no one deserves such special grace because they are under the just judgment of God. That is what Calvinists believe because that is what is taught in the scriptures.

You, apparently, think that it would be unfair to give light to some and pass others by.

Calvinists and I (and God as I read it) would disagree. God owes none of us anything but Hell.

I must add here that, although we all believe that not all will be saved by the atonement in the end, I do not subscribe to the doctrine of limited atonement as it is often presented by some Calvinists.