Logical Problems with Calvinism

[EmSw]

Marvins' story, Marvin's rules, Marvin's the one you want to talk to about it. My issue is you trying to change the rules, other wise, not my circus, not my monkeys....

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But you sent in the clowns.

 

[EmSw]

My natural reply to your post would be something like, "What a complete idiot!"

It was just a parable that I came up with because Jason insisted on having one. You know - a "parable" - something to lay along side of and parallel to a real teaching that will help in a worldly way to illustrate spiritual truth.

Parables are useless unless the meaning of it is told.

When the disciples asked Jesus to explain parables, Jesus surely didn't call them idiots. Why does it even cross your mind to call others idiots? But I think you got it right when you said, 'My NATURAL reply'. What would be your 'spiritual' reply?

But being the patient man that I am and being willing to play along with you, at least for this one post - I'll try to answer as best I can. Not that you asked in the right spirit or that you really wanted to know the answers.

Jesus didn't play along with the disciple's request; I am sure He was quite honest with them.

The orphanage would be this lost, cursed, Satan controlled world which we all needed to be rescued from.

The boy's new identify is the equivalent of a new nature.

I am being very serious here Marvin. No one is born as an orphan in an orphange; they were born sons or daughters of genuine parents, and which at some time, they were put into an orphanage. So, when does a child become an orphan and take on the 'new identity' of the orphanage?

If the adopted boy would not stop his activities, the father would have determined that he be turned over to the world "for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" - to coin an appropriate parallel phrase from the scriptures.

What do you mean by 'turned over to the world'? Back to the orphanage? Let loose in his sin? Let the boy continue as is? How does 'turned over to the world' destroy his flesh?

In keeping with the spiritual truths that Jason was really asking for illustration of with the parable - no one has ever tried to kill the Father that I know of. Therefore what you asked is not a relevant illustration of truth.

Interesting Marvin. So I take a rescued orphan can never get deeper in more evil sins. I find that in the real world, if a person remains in his sins without remorse, they tend to go deeper in sin.

If you continue to push this silliness as far as I believe you are capable of judging from past contact with you - I may revert to my natural impulses and say something like, "What a complete idiot."

Now now Marvin, follow the example of Jesus.

Hopefully you'll just let it go and it won't come to that - since I went to the trouble of explaining things to you in spite of the silliness of your questions.

By the way - "adoption" is completely relevant to the discussion. Read your Bible.

If it does come to that, then I say it is a problem you will have to work on.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A real world example is what Jesus made many times thru out the Scriptures to illustrate spiritual truth to people. For what was true in the real world also held true for the spiritual world. For even the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon what Jesus said involving a real world example; And Jesus accepted her example back because it was an example based on a truth in the real world.

As for my pushing for folks to make a real world example being a weakness in the defense of my position: On the contrary, folks failure to provide such a simple example only proves that their belief is not what it really claims to be.....

And I have already showed you WHY Jesus taught in parables. It was for those whose eyes and ears were closed to the truth.

Apparently that's why you want a parable, huh.

When Jesus was alone with His disciples, He taught them clearly and explained what the parables meant.

Anyhow, you've been given clear examples from Scripture, which are real world examples, that support eternal security, and refute your views.

But Scripture has no place for those whose ears and eyes are closed, as Jesus pointed out.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does the Bible tell us to make parables to determine the truth?

What an odd question. You're the one asking for a parable, by your request of "real world examples" and then equating that to the parables that Jesus taught.

Well, the Canaanite woman expounded upon what Jesus said with an example of her own and Jesus accepted it. For the truth she illustrated was in line with the real world. Also, we are to be Christ's example, too. We are to walk as he had walked. So if Jesus told parables, it is only logical that we can do the same thing.....

Where did the woman use any parables? She didn't. And I've already told you WHY Jesus taught in parables. It was for those whose eyes and ears were closed to the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And this would be a false claim because I believe a saint can still be saved despite them having sins in their life that do not lead unto spiritual death.

Please support your view that 1 Jn 5:16 is a reference to spiritual death and not physical death as a discipline from God. I can show you many verses that provide a REAL WORLD EXAMPLE of believers who physically died as a result of specific sins.

A Biblical example of a sin that does not lead unto spiritual death would be a believer who died who chose not to be baptized.

Where do you get this stuff?

The context of 1 John 1:8 is in view of sins that lead unto spiritual death (like murder, hate, theft, etc.) whereby they would need to be confessed so as to be forgiven (1 John 1:9).

The context for 1:8 is what preceded v.8. And the subject is about FELLOWSHIP, which is a doctrine you've not indicated any familiarity with.

1 John 1:8 is talking about those who deny the very existence of sin itself on some level.

This opinion cannot be supported from the context. It is very straight forward and refers to those who believe in sinless perfection.

Christian Scientists do not believe in sin, evil, or the devil.

OK. And let's let 1 Jn 1:8 describe such people: self deceived and the truth is not in them.

Antinomians believe that they sin physically, but they do not have any sin on a spiritual level because Jesus paid the price for their present and future sin.

Can you support your notion of "sin on a spiritual level"? What does that even mean? And how does one "sin spiritually" anyway?

Paul taught that all sin comes from our sin nature, and uses such terms as "fleshly". How is that spiritual, esp since Paul differentiated between the physical and the spiritual.

That is what 1 John 1:8 is actually talking about. For there is no verse (besides a wrong interpreation of 1 John 1:10) that supports the view that John was teaching against Sinless Perfectionism in his epistle....

You have been self deceived and the truth is not in you according to 1 Jn 1:8 and your belief in sinless perfection.

 

[nobdysfool]

It doesn't matter if you believe me or not. It is still the truth. My belief has not changed in regards 1 John 1:8. I still believe 1 John 1:8 is saying that a person is denying the existence of sin or they are denying the punishment of sin in some way. I am merely saying that from my opponents perspective or view on 1 John 1:8, they are still wrong. Again, this is not a new revelation for me. I have said this same exact discussion before a long time ago on another forum.....

And I'll bet you didn't get much traction that time, either. And you continue to tell falsehoods about what we believe, and once again demonstrate your ignorance of Reformed Theology. Your "truth" is supported by and based on falsehoods, which means that it cannot possibly be real truth. Real truth contains no falsehood.

 

[GillDouglas]

Interesting Marvin. So I take a rescued orphan can never get deeper in more evil sins. I find that in the real world, if a person remains in his sins without remorse, they tend to go deeper in sin.

I would disagree with you on this one EmSw. There is a limit to how 'deep' a sinner can go. God is active in this world, and does not sit idly by while men go about sinning. Common Grace keeps sin in check, and until an unbeliever dies, he is not completely swallowed up by it.

 

[nobdysfool]

But you sent in the clowns.

Yep. You showed up, right on cue....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And I have already showed you WHY Jesus taught in parables. It was for those whose eyes and ears were closed to the truth.

Apparently that's why you want a parable, huh.

When Jesus was alone with His disciples, He taught them clearly and explained what the parables meant.

Anyhow, you've been given clear examples from Scripture, which are real world examples, that support eternal security, and refute your views.

But Scripture has no place for those whose ears and eyes are closed, as Jesus pointed out.

It is written, "He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:6).

"And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost" (1 Thessalonians 1:6).

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:16).

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21).

In other words, Christ is our example. Jesus used parables for the purpose of illustrating spiritual truth by way of looking at a truth in the real world. This is important because people may be able to twist the Bible to their own interpretation, but they cannot as easily twist a truth that exists in the real world. Even now, you have not provided me with a real world example like the parables of Jesus (to my knowledge). Why? Because we both know you cannot make a real world example out of OSAS to show how it is moral and good.

A real world example is like the parables Jesus taught. They are generic stories that people from all walks of life can relate to (without any specific names, places, etc.). It is a universal truth in the real world that expresses a truth in the spiritual world. For example: Jesus uses the illustration of how one cannot put new wine into old wine skins so as to illustrate a spiritual truth. This is the type of example I would like for you to create. A generic story or a truth in the real world so as to illustrate your belief on Soteriology and how it is moral and good.


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[EmSw]

I would disagree with you on this one EmSw. There is a limit to how 'deep' a sinner can go. God is active in this world, and does not sit idly by while men go about sinning. Common Grace keeps sin in check, and until an unbeliever dies, he is not completely swallowed up by it.

Are you familiar with Hitler, Stalin, and Moa Tse-tung? Have you ever read about ISIS? Are these not worse than stealing parent's money?

 

[EmSw]

Yep. You showed up, right on cue....

I don't let you send me anywhere.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And I'll bet you didn't get much traction that time, either. And you continue to tell falsehoods about what we believe, and once again demonstrate your ignorance of Reformed Theology. Your "truth" is supported by and based on falsehoods, which means that it cannot possibly be real truth. Real truth contains no falsehood.

Please take a step back and look at how you speak to others here. Can you honestly expect me and others to believe that your words here are filled with the love of God? For I find your words to be very insulting towards me. You also appear to be attacking me on a personal level as if it is some kind of attack against me as a person. We are here to discuss the Bible and not to insult one another. So I would ask you kindly to stick to the Scriptures instead of making insulting observations.


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[GillDouglas]

Are you familiar with Hitler, Stalin, and Moa Tse-tung? Have you ever read about ISIS? Are these not worse than stealing parent's money?

From a human perspective, certainly these people would be considered the most evil of evil. However, if you agree with Jason (on this one point we agree) who said a sin against God is a sin, the same offense, no matter how big or small. No one in this life is so far gone that they cannot be saved from their sin, if God will's.

 

[GillDouglas]

Please take a step back and look at how you speak to others here. Can you honestly expect me and others to believe that your words here are filled with the love of God? For I find your words to be very insulting towards me. You also appear to be attacking me on a personal level as if it is some kind of attack against me as a person. We are here to discuss the Bible and not to insult one another. So I would ask you kindly to stick to the Scriptures instead of making insulting observations.
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We've all become a bit heated in our discussions about our understanding of Scripture, specifically in regards to our salvation and how a believer should live. We each are frustrated at the other who just "doesn't get it" when we explain why we believe what we do, and we don't agree. Some have a longer fuse than the other, but each and everyone of us has retaliated in some form or fashion either directly or subtly indirectly. Our bickering back and forth will do little to change the opinions of those strong in faith and personal belief. The log in my own eye is greater than the speck in yours, and sometimes things are better left unsaid. At the same time your effort to point out the faults of others only perpetuates the battle. Rather than creating and expounding upon these posts about why the other camp is all wrong, unbiblical, etc. (in this case, it was directed at mine), we should be lifting each other up, and doing all things to glorify God. Though these discussions do sharpen our individual beliefs and may persuade a few, does the hurtful bickering glorify Him?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From a human perspective, certainly these people would be considered the most evil of evil. However, if you agree with Jason (on this one point we agree) who said a sin against God is a sin, the same offense, no matter how big or small. No one in this life is so far gone that they cannot be saved from their sin, if God will's.

I agree that God can save people who have done some really horrible and evil things. Paul used to persecute and have Christians executed and yet he turned out to be a great man of God later of whom the Lord had used as a vessel to write the majority of the New Testament.

However, when I said that one sin is no different than another sin in my previous post to you, I had essentially said to you that this was in context to the type of sins that led unto spiritual death. Such sins would be murder, hate, theft, drunkeness, lying, adultery, and idolatry. These types of sins if they are not confessed and forsaken can lead a person to face the Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire.

So I was talking about "sins that lead unto spiritual death."

But I was not referring to ALL sin. For not all sin is the same.
For even Jesus himself said, that one can be guilty of a GREATER sin (John 19:11).

So we know not all sin is the same.

There are sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). A biblical example would be a believer breaking the Command to be baptized in this life. For Peter makes it clear that baptism is not done for salvation or for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin) (1 Peter 3:21) (cross reference the words "filth of the flesh" with 2 Corinthians 7:1). Sins that do not lead unto death are hidden and secret faults (Psalm 19:12). This could be the type of sins like going over the speed limit a little. It could be the type of sin in not going the extra mile at your job so as to not be a good example for Christ so as to obey the Command from Jesus that says:

"Let your light so shine before men [i.e. Christ's light], that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

There are also sins that cannot be forgiven, too.

1. Suicide (where a person stays dead) is a sin that cannot be forgiven.
2. Taking the Mark of the Beast is to drink of the Wrath of God and cannot be forgiven.
3. Speaking bad against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.
4. Rejecting Christ as one's savior after one has been enlightened, has tasted of the heavenly gifts, and made partakers of the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven.​

God has also been known to strike dead immediately for those commiting certain sins, as well. Ananais and Sapphira were struck dead for lying to the Holy Ghost. Great fear fell upon the church and all who heard about this. Now, you probably believe they were saved. But if such were the case, then it does not make any sense for people to be in fear of God over two people who are now in the comfort of Heaven with their Lord. For to live is Christ and to die is gain. Believers are told by Jesus not to fear death. For Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).


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[GillDouglas]

I agree that God can save people who have done some really horrible and evil things. Paul used to persecute and have Christians executed and yet he turned out to be a great man of God later of whom the Lord had used as a vessel to write the majority of the New Testament.

However, when I said that one sin is no different than another sin in my previous post to you, I had essentially said to you that this was in context to the type of sins that lead unto spiritual death. Such sins would be murder, hate, theft, drunkeness, lying, adultery, and idolatry. These types of sins if they are not confessed and forsaken can lead a person to face the Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire.

So I was talking about "sins that lead unto spiritual death."

But I was not referring to ALL sin. For not all sin is the same.
For even Jesus himself said, that one can be guilty of a GREATER sin (John 19:11).

So we know not all sin is the same.

There are sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). A biblical example would be a believer breaking the Command to be baptized in this life. For Peter makes it clear that baptism is not done for salvation or for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin) (1 Peter 3:21) (cross reference the words "filth of the flesh" with 2 Corinthians 7:1). Sins that do not lead unto death are hidden and secret faults (Psalm 19:12). This could be the type of sins like going over the speed limit a little. It could be the type of sin in not going the extra mile at your job so as to not be a good example for Christ so as to obey the Command from Jesus that says:

"Let your light so shine before men [i.e. Christ's light], that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

There are also sins that cannot be forgiven, too.

1. Suicide (where a person stays dead) is a sin that cannot be forgiven.
2. Taking the Mark of the Beast is to drink of the Wrath of God and cannot be forgiven, too.
3. Speaking bad against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.
4. Rejecting Christ as one's savior after one has been enlightened, has tasted of the heavenly gifts, and made partakers of the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven.​

God has also been known to strike dead immediately for those commiting certain sins, as well. Ananais and Saphirra were struck dead for lying to the Holy Ghost. Great fear fell upon the church and all who heard about this. Now, you probably believe they were saved. But if such were the case, then it does not make any sense for people to be in fear of God over two people who are now in the comfort of Heaven with their Lord. For to live is Christ and to die is gain. Believers are told by Jesus not to fear death. For Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).
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It seems you've changed your stance on sin, and given it levels of severity. I would disagree, and there is no difference. Any sin (small or large, regardless of what it is) breaks both the first and the greatest commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart". However, all sin is forgiven by the saving work of Christ on the Cross. Through His blood we are redeemed!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We've all become a bit heated in our discussions about our understanding of Scripture, specifically in regards to our salvation and how a believer should live. We each are frustrated at the other who just "doesn't get it" when we explain why we believe what we do, and we don't agree. Some have a longer fuse than the other, but each and everyone of us has retaliated in some form or fashion either directly or subtly indirectly. Our bickering back and forth will do little to change the opinions of those strong in faith and personal belief. The log in my own eye is greater than your speck in yours, and sometimes things are better left unsaid. At the same time your effort to point out the faults of others only perpetuates the battle. Rather than creating and expounding upon these posts about why the other camp is all wrong, unbiblical, etc. (in this case, it was directed at mine), we should be lifting each other up, and doing all things to glorify God. Though these discussions do sharpen our individual beliefs and may persuade a few, does the hurtful bickering glorify Him?

In my many years of discussing OSAS, I have never been heated enough to attack a person on a personal level and or to insult them. This in my opinion is not a loving characteristic of abidiing in Christ. Paul says let your speech always be filled with grace seasoned with salt (Colossians 4:6). My mention of such a thing is not to drag him down, but it is to get him to see his error so as to correct it so he can speak in a loving and good way even if his enemies were to spit venom at him. He should be calm and at peace even under great adversity. Every believer should not be overcome by evil, but they should be able to overcome evil with good. For believers are to pray for their enemies and to do good unto them.


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[Bible Highlighter]

It seems you've changed your stance on sin, and given it levels of severity. I would disagree, and there is no difference. Any sin (small or large, regardless of what it is) breaks both the first and the greatest commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart". However, all sin is forgiven by the saving work of Christ on the Cross. Through His blood we are redeemed!

I have not changed my stance on sin. Go back and read the post that I had written to you before. I was talking about sins that lead unto spiritual death. I have believed that "not all sin is the same" for a long time now and have even expressed this belief on another forum (a long time ago).

But I cannot see how you can lump all sin together as one, though. That is totally illogical. The Bible is very clear not all sin is the same (As I have shown in Scripture above). For even you should know that Jesus speaks of an unforgivable sin.

Please take note that not all my points in Scripture had verse numbers attached to them.


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[GillDouglas]

In my many years of discussing OSAS, I have never been heated enough to attack a person on a personal level and or to insult them. This in my opinion is not a loving characteristic of abidiing in Christ. Paul says let your speech always be filled with grace seasoned with salt (Colossians 4:6). My mention of such a thing is not to drag him down, but it is to get him to see his error so as to correct it so he can speak in a loving and good way even if his enemies were to spit venom at him. He should be calm and at peace even under great adversity. Every believer should not be overcome by evil, but they should be able to overcome evil with good. For believers are to pray for their enemies and to do good unto them.
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But who are we to judge our fellow man? Also, you are not being honest here about your level of participation in the attacks/insults against the other party. It has been pointed out to you by myself and others that you have done the same as all the rest of us. Whether you meant to or not is irrelevant when the perceived consequences dictate otherwise. Do not elevate yourself above your brothers. The meek shall inherit, not the proud.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But who are we to judge our fellow man? Also, you are not being honest here about your level of participation in the attacks/insults against the other party. It has been pointed out to you by myself and others that you have done the same as all the rest of us. Whether you meant to or not is irrelevant when the perceived consequences dictate otherwise. Do not elevate yourself above your brothers. The meek shall inherit, not the proud.

I am not elevating myself above anyone for I do not give myself the credit for any good that I do. Jesus Christ deserves all the glory for any good done in my life. Oh, and believers can correct other believers if they are in error. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16).


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