Logical Problems with Calvinism

[GillDouglas]

I have not changed my stance on sin. Go back and read the post that I had written to you before. I was talking about sins that lead unto spiritual death. I have believed that "not all sin is the same" for a long time now and have even expressed this belief on another forum (a long time ago).

But I cannot see how you can lump all sin together as one, though. That is totally illogical. The Bible is very clear not all sin is the same (As I have shown in Scripture above). For even you should know that Jesus speaks of an unforgivable sin.

Please take note that not all my points in Scripture had verse numbers attached to them.

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To lump all sin together as the same seems logical enough to me, for it is all actions (thoughts, words or deeds) against our Creator. Whether a sin leads to death, or not, it is still a sin.

 

[GillDouglas]

I am not elevating myself above anyone for I do not give myself the credit for any good that I do. Jesus Christ deserves all the glory for any good done in my life. Oh, and believers can correct other believers if they are in error. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16).
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You would be right if someone was saying something that God did not, instead you're trying to correct behavior and using Scripture to justify it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To lump all sin together as the same seems logical enough to me, for it is all actions (thoughts, words or deeds) against our Creator. Whether a sin leads to death, or not, it is still a sin.

I would say not all sin is the same because if one is abiding in a sin that leads unto spiritual death (i.e. Second Death type sins - sins that would lead to the Lake of Fire) they are going to face destruction. If they are abiding only in sin that does not lead unto death then they will not die spiritually but they will be judged for their non-death sins at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Christ will then wipe away all their tears after that.

Also, Jesus said there is an unforgivable sin, too.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:32).

There will be no ubelievers in the world to come (i.e. the Millennium). Speaking a word against the Holy Spirit means exactly that. It means to speak badly against the Spirit (Which cannot be forgiven).


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[Bible Highlighter]

You would be right if someone was saying something that God did not, instead you're trying to correct behavior and using Scripture to justify it.

And you do not think God's Word can correct wrong behavior in others? What in the world do you think happened with the man who was sleeping around in the church at Corinth? Did not Paul write an epistle to the Corinthians telling them not to keep company with fornicators? (See 1 Corinthians 5). Is not fornication a wrong behavior? Is not Paul's letter to the Corinthians here a form of correction?


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[GillDouglas]

And you do not think God's Word can correct wrong behavior in others? What in the world do you think happened with the man who was sleeping around in the church at Corinth? (See 1 Corinthians 5).
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I don't find it fair that you would equate someone hurting your feelings to a man-harlot.

 

[GillDouglas]

I would say not all sin is the same because if one is abiding in a sin that leads unto spiritual death (i.e. Second Death type sins - sins that would lead to the Lake of Fire) they are going to face destruction. If they are abiding only in sin that does not lead unto death then they will not die spiritually but they will be judged for their non-death sins at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Christ will then wipe away all their tears after that.

Also, Jesus said there is an unforgivable sin, too.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:32).

There will be no ubelievers in the world to come (i.e. the Millennium). Speaking a word against the Holy Spirit means exactly that. It means to speak badly against the Spirit (Which cannot be forgiven).


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This is why you are cursed under the law, and able to justify your sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't find it fair that you would equate someone hurting your feelings to a man-harlot.

First, of all, I did not say those words (Which would be hateful to another). You are saying those words and putting them in my mouth. Which is not nice. Second, a moment ago you were telling me that all sin is the same, no? But if you really want to know if hatred is acceptable to God or not, then please read Galatians 5:19-21 and 1 John 3:15. In any event, I am ending this discussion on this particular matter (you are focusing on) because it is getting to be turned into a personal discussion about someone. It is my goal not to attack an individual but to preach God's Word (and let the seeds fall where they may).

May God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.

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[Bible Highlighter]

This is why you are cursed under the law, and able to justify your sin.

When Paul talked about those who were cursed for being under the Law, he was talking to Jews who still wanted to be under the Law of Moses. Paul was warning the brethren in Galatians and Romans about how they do not need to go back to the Old Law and be circumcised. For such a thing is no longer required in the New Covenant. For the Old Law was replaced with the New Law or the Commands in the New Testament. For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. In fact, we know that there are still laws or commands we have to obey. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not what I say? Matthew 7 also makes it clear on this. For Jesus says, not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of my Father in Heaven (Matthew 7:21). Doing the will of the Father in Heaven would obviously involve doing that which is righteous. How so? Well, the following verses say this:

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:24-27).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Where did the woman use any parables? She didn't.

Not true. The Canaanite woman had expounded upon Jesus's parable or real world example with an example of her own. She elaborated in more detail upon a truth or an example that Christ was already talking about.


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[FreeGrace2]

It is written, "He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:6).

"And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost" (1 Thessalonians 1:6).

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:16).

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21).

Since none of these verses either support or teach sinless perfection, what was the point of quoting them?

In other words, Christ is our example. Jesus used parables for the purpose of illustrating spiritual truth by way of looking at a truth in the real world.

Uh, Jesus is THE teacher. He teaches truth. Where did He command anyone else to teach in parables? Nowhere.

Further, I proved from Scripture (which you ignored) that Jesus taught in parables to those whose eyes and ears were closed to the truth. He had to take His disciples aside and teach them what the parables meant.

So you can give up on your idea of requesting "parables" as real world examples. btw, none of His parables were real world. They were stories to make a point. Not real people involved.

[QTUOE] This is important because people may be able to twist the Bible to their own interpretation, but they cannot as easily twist a truth that exists in the real world.[/QUOTE]
That is why I never use a parable to teach anything. There is no point. The truth needs to be proclaimed directly and clearly.

Even now, you have not provided me with a real world example like the parables of Jesus (to my knowledge).

This is a nonsensical request. Parables are not real world. Get real.

Why? Because we both know you cannot make a real world example out of OSAS to show how it is moral and good.

More nonsense. The Bible teaches that justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life are gifts of God (Rom 6:23). And Rom 11:29 teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable. That is real world. That is truth from Scripture. And, that refutes your opinions.

A real world example is like the parables Jesus taught.

This is flat out in error. Parables are NOT real world anything. And Jesus taught in parables to those whose eyes and ears were closed to the truth.

They are generic stories that people from all walks of life can relate to (without any specific names, places, etc.).

Yet, not real world at all. And you've been given the teaching of the BEST Bible teacher of all time; Paul, who taught about the struggle between our 2 natures.

It is a universal truth in the real world that expresses a truth in the spiritual world. For example: Jesus uses the illustration of how one cannot put new wine into old wine skins so as to illustrate a spiritual truth.

What did you learn from that parable. What is the spiritual truth there?

This is the type of example I would like for you to create.

I don't make up stories. I use the guidance from what the Bible teaches, by using REAL WORLD examples, such as Paul's own testimony about his own struggle between his 2 natures.

A generic story or a truth in the real world so as to illustrate your belief on Soteriology and how it is moral and good.....

I've given you a truth in the real world: Paul himself.

Whether you like it or not. It's the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have not changed my stance on sin. Go back and read the post that I had written to you before. I was talking about sins that lead unto spiritual death. I have believed that "not all sin is the same" for a long time now and have even expressed this belief on another forum (a long time ago).

You need to prove that 1 Jn 5:16 refers to spiritual death, rather than what scholars understand as discipline leading to physical death. Which is amply illustrated in the Bible.

But I cannot see how you can lump all sin together as one, though. That is totally illogical. The Bible is very clear not all sin is the same (As I have shown in Scripture above). For even you should know that Jesus speaks of an unforgivable sin.

The unpardonable sin has context to it. I recommend that you do some basic research on that. It has nothing to do with today. It wa only an issue when Jesus was on earth before His crucifixion.

Please take note that not all my points in Scripture had verse numbers attached to them.....

Don't worry about that. It's a GLARING omission. Why don't you have verse numbers? Because there are no verses that say what you believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please support your view that 1 Jn 5:16 is a reference to spiritual death and not physical death as a discipline from God. I can show you many verses that provide a REAL WORLD EXAMPLE of believers who physically died as a result of specific sins.

Again, a real world example is like the parables that Jesus told. You may not like the alternative name "real world examples" for the word "parables" but that is essentially what I am asking you to create. A parable like Jesus had made. A generic truth in the real world to illustrate why you think OSAS is moral and good.

Anyways, I call "parables" in the New Testament as "real world examples" because one cannot see in the real world the many things that the Bible has talked about. It requires faith for us to believe that the names, places, and events took place. Yes, they happened in the real world, but it happened in the past. So quoting Scripture of events and places and people and or a particular truth is a Biblical example and not a real world example in my opinion because I cannot illustrate in the real world the events that took place in the Bible. However, I can use real world examples that everyone is familar with so as to illustrate spiritual truth like Jesus had done.

As for 1 John 5:16-18 being in reference to physical death: Well, nowhere in John's episte does he mention physical death. On the contrary, if you were to take note of every time John mentions life and death, or light and darkness he is clearly talking spiritually. For the life John talks about is eternal life which would then be contrasted with spiritual death, etc.

The context for 1:8 is what preceded v.8. And the subject is about FELLOWSHIP, which is a doctrine you've not indicated any familiarity with.

We know 1 John 1:8 is not talking about fellowship because 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. We know from the rest of Scripture that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). We also know that nobody can be saved without the Truth (Which is Jesus Christ) (John 14:6).

Furthermore, 1 John 3:15 says that if any man hates his brother he is a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. That is pretty straight forward that John is talking about salvation here and not a loss of fellowship only.


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[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Where did the woman use any parables? She didn't."

Not true. The Canaanite woman had expounded upon Jesus's parable or real world example with an example of her own. She elaborated in more detail upon a truth or an example that Christ was already talking about.
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The total lack of any specificity demonstrates that you can't prove or even support your claims.

What example from the woman?
Where did she expound on Jesus' parable?
What did she elaborate on, specifically?

Until Christ revealed Himself as the Messiah, she was fairly clueless about what He was talking about.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, a real world example is like the parables that Jesus told. You may not like the alternative name "real world examples" for the word "parables" but that is essentially what I am asking you to create.

I have been crystal clear about this. I have given you actual examples from Scripture. But you have rejected the truth of Scripture.

Parables were for those who had rejected truth. I've already proven that from Scripture.

I don't need parables when the Bible gives actual real world examples that prove what I say.

A parable like Jesus had made. A generic truth in the real world to illustrate why you think OSAS is moral and good.

I've proven from Scripture that OSAS is moral and good. Because it's the truth.

Do you believe the truth isn't moral or good???????????? That would sure be weird.

As for 1 John 5:16-18 being in reference to physical death: Well, nowhere in John's episte does he mention physical death.

He did in 1 Jn 5:16. And there are actual "real world examples" of the sin unto death throughout the NT.

1 Cor 5 and the incestuous man: Paul turned him over to the devil "for the destruction of the flesh", another way of saying physical death.
1 Cor 10 and the Exodus generation, where all of them but 2 died in the desert. That was physical.
1 Cor 11:30 and abuse of the Lord's Table - For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep (euphemism for physical death).
Acts 5 - Ananias and Sapphira

King Saul in 1 Chron 10:13,14.

On the contrary, if you were to take note of every time John mentions life and death, or light and darkness he is clearly talking spiritually. For the life John talks about is eternal life which would then be contrasted with spiritual death, etc.

What he was talking about was certainly about our spiritual life in the context of FELLOWSHIP, which he stated 4 times in the first chapter.

We know 1 John 1:8 is not talking about fellowship because 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

The truth is not in a lot of believers. Such as those who preach sinless perfection this side of heaven. Which is why Paul 4 times used the phrase "I would not have you IGNORANT, brothers" in his epistles.

Many believers are plain IGNORANT of Scripture.

We know from the rest of Scripture that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). We also know that nobody can be saved without the Truth (Which is Jesus Christ) (John 14:6).

Those who have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, a GUARANTEE to God's own possession (His own children) for the day of redemption. Eph 1;13,14. I cannot imagine how you'd twist that.

Furthermore, 1 John 3:15 says that if any man hates his brother he is a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. That is pretty straight forward that John is talking about salvation here and not a loss of fellowship only.....

The key is the word "abiding". It's used as in the context of fellowship, as Jesus used it in John 15.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Since none of these verses either support or teach sinless perfection, what was the point of quoting them?

I did not quote those verses to show you about Sinless Perfectionism. I quoted those verses to show that we are to imitate Christ.

Uh, Jesus is THE teacher. He teaches truth. Where did He command anyone else to teach in parables? Nowhere.

The verses I provided that you thought were about Sinless Perfectionism are telling us to imitate and follow after how Christ lived. So if Christ spoke in parables, then that means we can speak in parables, too (Because we are supposed to be imitators of our Lord in the good things He did).

So you can give up on your idea of requesting "parables" as real world examples. btw, none of His parables were real world. They were stories to make a point. Not real people involved.

Uh, no. All of the parables Jesus told could have happened in the real world (and by statistical probability did happen at some point in the past). Jesus did not talk about some fantasy creatures on Mars that did not exist. Jesus talked about real things in the real world that we would be familar with.

This is important because people may be able to twist the Bible to their own interpretation, but they cannot as easily twist a truth that exists in the real world.

That is why I never use a parable to teach anything. There is no point. The truth needs to be proclaimed directly and clearly.

Yet, Jesus did not always speak in such a way. He used parables; And the Bible says we are to be imitators of our Lord.

More nonsense. The Bible teaches that justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life are gifts of God (Rom 6:23). And Rom 11:29 teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable. That is real world. That is truth from Scripture. And, that refutes your opinions.

You are only picking and choosing only favored verses so as to make your belief work, though. Nowhere does Scripture say that a man is forever saved once He accepts or believes Christ. In fact, we know that this is not the case because there are those who thought they did many wonderful works in his name and yet Jesus told them to depart from because they worked iniquity (i.e. sin).


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[Bible Highlighter]

I said this:
"Where did the woman use any parables? She didn't."

The total lack of any specificity demonstrates that you can't prove or even support your claims.

What example from the woman?
Where did she expound on Jesus' parable?
What did she elaborate on, specifically?

Until Christ revealed Himself as the Messiah, she was fairly clueless about what He was talking about.

It is written...

"Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." (Matthew 15:25-28).


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[FreeGrace2]

My belief has not changed in regards 1 John 1:8. I still believe 1 John 1:8 is saying that a person is denying the existence of sin or they are denying the punishment of sin in some way.

Here's the disconnect though. To believe in sinless perfection IS a denial of the existence of sin. What else can sinless perfection mean??

You've already admitted in post #2344 that you are still working on yourself. That you haven't attained to the state of sinless perfection.

Just know this: when you think you have, please read 1 Jn 1:8 again. Very slowly and for understanding.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here's the disconnect though. To believe in sinless perfection IS a denial of the existence of sin. What else can sinless perfection mean??

You've already admitted in post #2344 that you are still working on yourself. That you haven't attained to the state of sinless perfection.

Just know this: when you think you have, please read 1 Jn 1:8 again. Very slowly and for understanding.

You do not understand. There is no conflict in what I believe on 1 John 1:8. I said that 1 John 1:8 is a warning to those who proclaim that either sin does not exist for them whatosever or that the punishment of sin is non-existent for them. This is evident if you were to read the New English Translation or the Expanded Bible. Anyways, my view on 1 John 1:8 makes sense because it is the same thing that 1 John 2:4 says but in different words. It says if we say we keep his commandments and have fellowship with him, we lie and do not the truth. The Bible says sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). So when 1 John 2:4 says that if one says they do not keep his commandments (i.e. Laws), it is essentially saying that they are sinning and declaring that they know him. But we also know the 1 John 2:4 also says that if they are to do this, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (Which is the same end result in 1 John 1:8).


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[FreeGrace2]

The verses I provided that you thought were about Sinless Perfectionism are telling us to imitate and follow after how Christ lived. So if Christ spoke in parables, then that means we can speak in parables, too (Because we are supposed to be imitators of our Lord in the good things He did).

There isn't any hint that we are to speak in parables. Because Jesus told us WHY He did. For those with ears that do not hear, and eyes that do not see.

John 12:39-40 - 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”

Matt 13:13 - “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." I think you need to memorize this verse.

Luke 8:9,10 - 9 His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10 And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.

Uh, no. All of the parables Jesus told could have happened in the real world (and by statistical probability did happen at some point in the past).

Opinion, assumption, and conjecture only. Could have happened is NOT the same as actually happened. And I've given examples that HAVE ACTUALLY HAPPENED, but you're just not satisfied with that. Not my problem.

Yet, Jesus did not always speak in such a way. He used parables; And the Bible says we are to be imitators of our Lord.

See verses above for correct perspective on why Jesus used parables.

I had said this:
"The Bible teaches that justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life are gifts of God (Rom 6:23). And Rom 11:29 teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable. That is real world. That is truth from Scripture. And, that refutes your opinions."

You are only picking and choosing only favored verses so as to make your belief work, though.

Good grief!! I've just given you direct and clear statements that teach eternal security.

Nowhere does Scripture say that a man is forever saved once He accepts or believes Christ.

That concept is clearly taught in the verses I've given. Or do you believe that God breaks His promises to His own possession??

In fact, we know that this is not the case because there are those who thought they did many wonderful works in his name and yet Jesus told them to depart from because they worked iniquity (i.e. sin).....

Once again, please look at context. These were only religious people. The FACT that they were basing their entrance into the kingdom on what they DID proves that they weren't believers. They were workers; workers of iniquity.

Matt 7:21-23 proves that what is done will not save anyone. The iniquity they worked was that they thought they could earn eternal life and entrance into heaven. When God says otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is written...

"Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." (Matthew 15:25-28).
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I thought you were referring to the woman at the well. But whatever, what does this prove?