Logical Problem with Predestination

[Albion]

Untrue. Both Calvinist and non-calvinist believe God does the saving.

I don't really see how that is true. If salvation is dependent upon anything we do but can choose not to do, God merely offers salvation--which is quite a different matter.

 

[Rick Otto]

Untrue. Both Calvinist and non-calvinist believe God does the saving. God is the deciding factor and it is His will that no man perish.
I agree with the Calvinist up to a point. I do believe God knows all things and we never surprize God. But that's as far as I agree with Calvinist belief. Time will sort it out.

"Time will sort it out" doesn't explain how what I & Albion are saying is untrue, and you don't bother to name the point at which you part with Calvin.

I agree with Calvin on the pointy of soteriology, but part ways with him on sacramentology & ecclesiology especialy in the area of church discipline.

Time might sort you out if you don't sort it out first.

 

[Rev Randy]

I don't really see how that is true. If salvation is dependent upon anything we do but can choose not to do, God merely offers salvation--which is quite a different matter.

Offers? Or does it?

 

[RisingSpirit]

I don't think anyone debates that this is what freewill Ariminians (Methodist or Baptists) believe.

What we question is how one can simultaneously say "faith is not a work and works do not bring about salvation" while simultaneously saying "the autonomous human will is what ultimately effects human salvation and damnation." How can you possibly say both things at once?

Some would say believing is a work while others say believing isn't a work.

 

[RisingSpirit]

"Time will sort it out" doesn't explain how what I & Albion are saying is untrue, and you don't bother to name the point at which you part with Calvin.

I agree with Calvin on the pointy of soteriology, but part ways with him on sacramentology & ecclesiology especialy in the area of church discipline.

Time might sort you out if you don't sort it out first.

Time was created to keep everything from happening at once like it already happened such as Elects being elected before Birth.

 

[RisingSpirit]

That's right, this formula puts human will as the deciding factor in salvation leaving God as only making it possible, but the fact remains we don't save ourselves.

No humans ever said, "YES !"

 

[RisingSpirit]

I don't really see how that is true. If salvation is dependent upon anything we do but can choose not to do, God merely offers salvation--which is quite a different matter.

None will choose not too. They don't want it.

 

[RisingSpirit]

Offers? Or does it?

He offered and NONE took it.

 

[Rev Randy]

He offered and NONE took it.

I agree none took. But some received.

 

[Rick Otto]

Some would say believing is a work while others say believing isn't a work.

Jesus said it was the work of God.
Whose work do you say it is?

 

[Rev Randy]

"Time will sort it out" doesn't explain how what I & Albion are saying is untrue, and you don't bother to name the point at which you part with Calvin.

I agree with Calvin on the pointy of soteriology, but part ways with him on sacramentology & ecclesiology especialy in the area of church discipline.

Time might sort you out if you don't sort it out first.

I really doubt it matters that much. It is the belief in Christ that matters not whether you're a Calvinist or not. I rarely engage in Calvin threads. They lead nowhere.
My point was simple. Rev. Randy is not a Calvinist and Rev. Randy does not believe he saved himself.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Rev Randy;I really doubt it matters that much. It is the belief in Christ that matters not whether you're a Calvinist or not.

If you mean soteriologicaly Calvinist, it matters as much as believing God saves us, or we save ourselves by making intelligent choices.

I rarely engage in Calvin threads. They lead nowhere.

Depends on what you believe about being anywhere means.

My point was simple. Rev. Randy is not a Calvinist and Rev. Randy does not believe he saved himself.

Your point is simple self-deception if Randy thinks Randy had anything decisive to do with his being saved.

 

[Rev Randy]

If you mean soteriologicaly Calvinist, it matters as much as believing God saves us, or we save ourselves by making intelligent choices.

Depends on what you believe about being anywhere means.


Your point is simple self-deception if Randy thinks Randy had anything decisive to do with his being saved.

Being Orthodox I'm not even willing to say I'm saved but have hope I will be saved.

 

[Rick Otto]

Being Orthodox I'm not even willing to say I'm saved but have hope I will be saved.

How sad.
I am saved.
I hope for rewards in heaven, but better to live under a bridge in heaven than in a mansion in hell.

BTW,... if anybody needs a toothpick, I'm done with mine.

 

[Rev Randy]

How sad.
I am saved.
I hope for rewards in heaven, but better to live under a bridge in heaven than in a mansion in hell.

Nothing sad about it. I have hope.

 

[Rick Otto]

Nothing sad about it. I have hope.

Sad is not knowing if you are saved or not.
Sadder is thinking it depends on you.

 

[Rick Otto]

Hoping you will be saved is like hoping the gospel makes sense.
It does or it doesn't.
You are or you are not.

 

[Thekla]

Well, if being saved doesn't depend on me - why say I am saved ?

God, Who knows my heart, my entire life (before I live it), the frontside and backside of eternity, and the above eternity, will judge; glory to Him +

 

[Albion]

Well, if being saved doesn't depend on me - why say I am saved ?

Pleased or grateful to have been rescued?

 

[seeingeyes]

Hoping you will be saved is like hoping the gospel makes sense.
It does or it doesn't.
You are or you are not.

That depends on what you mean by 'saved'. If 'saved' means 'when I die, I'm going straight to the pearly gates', then, in truth, none of us have any idea whether we are 'saved' or not. I mean, we can place our hope in the promises of God, but then if we are more concerned about our own post-death situation than anything else, then we have missed the gospel completely.

That's why it's better to leave such determinations up to our Judge. If we follow him, laying our lives down for others as he did, keeping our eyes on the Father, as he did, then we end up needing a lot less assurance that we'll 'be OK'. Maybe we won't 'be OK', but our Father will be with us all through that valley. In this life and in whatever comes next.

God bless