Logical Problem with Predestination

[Thekla]

Pleased or grateful to have been rescued?

I am deeply grateful to God, indeed ! For all around us, for His presence in our lives, that He is God, for all that He has done, also in my life -- even if I don't "make it", I honestly prefer walking in/with Him than without Him ...

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, if being saved doesn't depend on me - why say I am saved ?

God, Who knows my heart, my entire life (before I live it), the frontside and backside of eternity, and the above eternity, will judge; glory to Him +

And He judges both the saved & unsaved.
The reason you are saved & the reason it doesn't depend on you are the same - God's mercy.

 

[Thekla]

And He judges both the saved & unsaved.
The reason you are saved & the reason it doesn't depend on you are the same - God's mercy.

Yes, He does.

And all is up to Him.

I have limited knowledge - so I'll leave it up to Him, knowing He is merciful.

But I won't claim to know my future.

 

[Rick Otto]

Yes, He does.And all is up to Him.
I have limited knowledge - so I'll leave it up to Him, knowing He is merciful.
But I won't claim to know my future.

I will.
I have His assurances, & I believe Him.

 

[Thekla]

I will.
I have His assurances, & I believe Him.

I believe Him as well; it's 'me' that's the dicey part

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=seeingeyes;That depends on what you mean by 'saved'. If 'saved' means 'when I die, I'm going straight to the pearly gates', then, in truth, none of us have any idea whether we are 'saved' or not. I mean, we can place our hope in the promises of God, but then if we are more concerned about our own post-death situation than anything else, then we have missed the gospel completely.

Yeah,...
by "saved" I do mean we enter heaven, but our works get judged first.

That's why it's better to leave such determinations up to our Judge.

Well, it's not like He hasn't told us anything about His determinations.

If we follow him, laying our lives down for others as he did, keeping our eyes on the Father, as he did, then we end up needing a lot less assurance that we'll 'be OK'.

That wasn't MY experience on the works wagon. My wife & I both were very active participants in-reach, outreach, & foreign missions. The more I tried to do enough to feel "OK", the less "OK" I realy felt.
The more I worked, the more critical I became of myself & others.

Maybe we won't 'be OK', but our Father will be with us all through that valley. In this life and in whatever comes next.

Not being "OK" is not being saved. God is not "with" the unsaved.
I don't think memories of Him being close in the valley would be of any comfort in hell.

God bless

Same to ya.

 

[Rick Otto]

I believe Him as well; it's 'me' that's the dicey part

Same here, so don't even THINK about believing in yourself. That's a bad roll with fixed dice.
If it's up to me, it's a guaranteed total loss.

 

[seeingeyes]

Yeah,...
by "saved" I do mean we enter heaven, but our works get judged first.

Understood.

Well, it's not like He hasn't told us anything about His determinations.

Yes, but don't you think that there will be folks who are surprised by where they end up?

That wasn't MY experience on the works wagon. My wife & I both were very active participants in-reach, outreach, & foreign missions. The more I tried to do enough to feel "OK", the less "OK" I realy felt.
The more I worked, the more critical I became of myself & others.

Ahh shoot, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make this a 'faith vs. works' thing. That's another thread (one we've all posted in too many times!).

What I meant is that love requires us to take our eyes off ourselves, which we can't do if our primary goal is to make sure our own butts are covered.

I'm not trying to make some grand theological point here, just a practical one. If you pop your head into Christian Advice now and again you'll see the youngin's constantly asking, "Is this a sin?", "Will that send me to hell?" They can't tie their own shoe laces for fear of offending a Holy God.

The fact is though, that no one can follow Jesus out of fear. Everything he did he did out of love...not for fear of future consequences or even hope of future reward. Christ cannot be bought nor threatened. Neither, then, can any of the children of God.

Not being "OK" is not being saved. God is not "with" the unsaved.

But that's only true after we're dead?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Some would say believing is a work while others say believing isn't a work.

Right. But it's only not a work if faith itself is a gift. If it is not a gift, but is instead a result of a conscious action of the human will, then it is by definition a human action rather than a divine one.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=seeingeyes;Yes, but don't you think that there will be folks who are surprised by where they end up?

Absotively posilutely. Most people have never read the bible.
I used to imagine myself at those gates & Peter saying to me,"Did you even READ the book?" So I set out to read it cover-to-cover ten times just so I could reply, "I read it TEN TIMES! What did I miss?" I only made it to seven times, tho.

Ahh shoot, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make this a 'faith vs. works' thing. That's another thread (one we've all posted in too many times!).

That's what soteriology boils down to,... not that I prefer everything boiled.

What I meant is that love requires us to take our eyes off ourselves, which we can't do if our primary goal is to make sure our own butts are covered.

Major truth, that. When I was fighting depression at 15, I realized hard labor toward another person or other people's good immediately lifted my depression. I could cover my butt, but not for long. It would be a no-rest-for-the-wicked situation.

I'm not trying to make some grand theological point here, just a practical one. If you pop your head into Christian Advice now and again you'll see the youngin's constantly asking, "Is this a sin?", "Will that send me to hell?" They can't tie their own shoe laces for fear of offending a Holy God

.
Sometimes I think the most practical points can be pretty grand.
Yes, we are not given a spirit of fear. Fear of not being worthy is futile because no one but Jesus is.

The fact is though, that no one can follow Jesus out of fear. Everything he did he did out of love...not for fear of future consequences or even hope of future reward. Christ cannot be bought nor threatened. Neither, then, can any of the children of God.

Right. I get fear & loathing type responses: If we're predestined then it doesn't matter ,so why preach? Why not sin freely? It's like they have no concept of being motivated by gratitude.

But that's only true after we're dead?

First, to dispense with semantic ambiguity, God is omnipresent, so He is always "with" us in that sense, but not with us in the sense of being "on our side".
And as for "death"... we are physicaly born spiritualy dead as Adam became in the same day he sinned. We have a soul that animates the body and developes personality & intellect, but until the moment we are regenerated (born again - spiritualy), we are as good as dead.
I think I remember the moment it happened to me.

 

[Rev Randy]

Sad is not knowing if you are saved or not.
Sadder is thinking it depends on you.

I already said it did not depend on me. But what is sad is taking an unbiblical hymn and thinking it's true. Blessed assurance is a myth. Titus 3:7

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I already said it did not depend on me. But what is sad is taking an unbiblical hymn and thinking it's true. Blessed assurance is a myth. Titus 3:7

I'm going to have to disagree on this one with both Calvinists, on the one hand, and Arminians, Catholics, and Orthodox on the other.

I don't believe, as Calvinists do (or at least Calvinists in the Puritan and Dutch Reformed traditions) that we should look for signs of our election, whether an inner peace or sense (as the hymn says) or in our actions (Pietism). I don't believe we can find complete assurance in them.

However, I do believe- and this is a particularly Lutheran way of looking at it- that we can find complete assurance in the sacraments, because God has sealed visible signs with the power of his gracious, ever-present word. We are identity as adopted children of God in baptism, and that fundamentally marks us out as saved. We hear our baptized status affirmed and renewed in the absolution proclaimed whenever we repent, even if our repentance is imperfect. And we partake in the eschatological judgment when partaking of Christ's body and blood, and pass through that judgment to participate in the marriage feast of the lamb in his kingdom.

What more assurance could we possibly want or need? If we believe that God has sealed and signed these visible elements to his gracious promise of forgiveness, and that through them he imparts to us his very own nature and makes us one with him, then I assert that we cannot possibly have more assurance of our salvation.

I may be overstating my case a little, since I do not believe in the perseverance of the saints, nor do I believe that every recipient is a faithful recipient. However, if we do receive faithfully, and continue to receive faithfully, then we have already received and are still regularly receiving the adoption, forgiveness, and final favorable judgment which will be made visibly manifest at the parousia.

 

[RisingSpirit]

​

Al N. Arminian: How do you know that you are one of God's elect?

Clark A. Calvinist: Because, the Spirit of Promise bears witness with my spirit that I am a son of God, and I examined myself to see if I was indeed in the faith. According to scripture, my new nature is that of a converted man. "Christ in me" enabled me to repent (turn from my sins) and gave me a love of truth and righteousness and holiness. And since these things are the essence of God and since fellowship with this holy and righteous God for all eternity is the essence of heaven, this is where I now belong and where I long to be.

 

[Rick Otto]

I already said it did not depend on me. But what is sad is taking an unbiblical hymn and thinking it's true. Blessed assurance is a myth. Titus 3:7

How does this: "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
negate assurance? It should strengthen assurance that He will finish what He starts.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm going to have to disagree on this one with both Calvinists, on the one hand, and Arminians, Catholics, and Orthodox on the other.

I don't believe, as Calvinists do (or at least Calvinists in the Puritan and Dutch Reformed traditions) that we should look for signs of our election, whether an inner peace or sense (as the hymn says) or in our actions (Pietism). I don't believe we can find complete assurance in them.

However, I do believe- and this is a particularly Lutheran way of looking at it- that we can find complete assurance in the sacraments, because God has sealed visible signs with the power of his gracious, ever-present word. We are identity as adopted children of God in baptism, and that fundamentally marks us out as saved. We hear our baptized status affirmed and renewed in the absolution proclaimed whenever we repent, even if our repentance is imperfect. And we partake in the eschatological judgment when partaking of Christ's body and blood, and pass through that judgment to participate in the marriage feast of the lamb in his kingdom.

What more assurance could we possibly want or need? If we believe that God has sealed and signed these visible elements to his gracious promise of forgiveness, and that through them he imparts to us his very own nature and makes us one with him, then I assert that we cannot possibly have more assurance of our salvation.

I may be overstating my case a little, since I do not believe in the perseverance of the saints, nor do I believe that every recipient is a faithful recipient. However, if we do receive faithfully, and continue to receive faithfully, then we have already received and are still regularly receiving the adoption, forgiveness, and final favorable judgment which will be made visibly manifest at the parousia.

Your statement seems at the end to place faith above sacrament in terms of assurance.

 

[simonthezealot]

Do you have a citation for that or is that your interpretation of what Calvin wrote ?

My thoughts exactly, it would seem to me if one wanted to rail against something as being false they would first study it to understand what they really mean... LOL his outline of Calvinism is a mile off.

 

[simonthezealot]

I don't really see how that is true. If salvation is dependent upon anything we do but can choose not to do, God merely offers salvation--which is quite a different matter.

Exactly, that view of anything being dependent on man (the prescient view) puts our Creator at the mercy of His creation; if God wants people in heaven, He has to hope that man will freely choose His way of salvation.
(seems like a pretty low view of God to me)
In reality, this prescient view is no view of election at all, because God isn't choosing, rather only confirming. It is man who is the ultimate chooser.

 

[TamaraLynne]

I have not read all the posts on here but I have been scanning threads on the elect and predestination and I will share my thoughts even though I am not a very intelligent person or a theologian.

First thing that screamed inside of my head was "Are you serious! God is not a movie producer in that we are his puppets and that he already knew who he was going to pick for the star roles " That would negate love.
As far as I'm concerned the elect is the whole human race and we get to chose...some will want everything God has to offer because who God is bears witness to what is deeply within us and we desire all that God is because we have chosen what is most important for our soul. Love is what is the heart of us all....even the wicked crave love. I'll stop there because the rest is all about us listening to God calling us...and if we really want him to be our Lord and Savior we will be still and listen for his voice. and if we look at creation we will see that even parents want their children s love as they have loved their children before the child was even born.
But all in all...if we don't chose God...then we know beyond a shadow of a doubt...that it was our choice.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Your statement seems at the end to place faith above sacrament in terms of assurance.

I guess it really depends on the perspective of the viewer. From one's own perspective, one is looking at the sacraments for assurance, but that looking is itself faith- faith in God's promises in the sacraments. From God's perspective, he is operating in the sacraments upon faithful recipients.

The whole reason, we would say, that faith saves is because faith trusts in God's grace, and God's grace is given concretely in the proclaimed gospel, the water of baptism, the absolution of sins, and the elements in communion. It's also how Lutherans address the idea that faith itself is a gift of grace: faith is the situation of total dependence into which grace puts us, like a baby being held in the arms of a mother.

 

[Hentenza]

Being Orthodox I'm not even willing to say I'm saved but have hope I will be saved.

All martyrs, who willingly died for their faith in Christ, had the assurance (pun intended lol) that they would be with Christ upon death. If they had the assurance, then so should you.