Living by Faith--Is it for today?

[Forge3]

The problem is when one ignores the rest of scripture you can come away with this line of thinking that wealth is evil.

When one looks at one of God's primary test cases "Job", who Satan came to God and moved Him to allow him to test Job.

This is what Job had before the test:

"Seven sons and three daughters were born to him. His possessions also were 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, 500 female donkeys, and very many servants; and that man was the greatest of all the men of the east."

This was God's opinion of Job:
"For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”

Satan takes all Job has, his sons and daughters are killed, and Job is struck with disease. This is what Job says about it:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,And naked I shall return there.
The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”


The summary is this...after God has tested Job, and Job holds his integrity...God gives him even more:

"The Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; and he had 14,000 sheep and 6,000 camels and 1,000 yoke of oxen and 1,000 female donkeys. He had seven sons and three daughters. He named the first Jemimah, and the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch. In all the land no women were found so fair as Job’s daughters; and their father gave them inheritance among their brothers. After this, Job lived 140 years, and saw his sons and his grandsons, four generations. And Job died, an old man and full of days."


Candle glow and Luke1433, please reconcile this with what you allege Jesus is teaching.

Money is of course not an evil in and of itself. The worship of Mammon is though. A man could use a hammer to help build a dwelling place for the poor or to open a man's skull. In either case it is the heart and intent not objects that the Lord discerns. For he knows that secrets of the heart even those things which are yet secrets from us.

 

[Luke1433]

Like I said earlier, it would be nice if someone came along who did not have a knee-jerk reaction against the teachings of Jesus. We've been through this enough for it to be crystal clear who is defending Jesus and who (in the name of all that is religious) offended by the teachings of Jesus. As far as Job, Abraham, Solomon, Paul, and whoever else you want to name is concerned, let the Son of God be true and every man a liar. I have found that, by making Jesus the Cornerstone, I come to appreciate so much that is good in each of these other people, without having to use them to bludgeon Jesus with. But when you put it the other way around, you end up right alongside the Pharisees, who claimed God's anointing in their war on Jesus too.

Anyway, it would be nice if someone came along who had the ability to at least dream ofa world where everyone believed Jesus and were prepared to act on it instead of being ashamed of his teachings.

 

[ebedmelech]

Money is of course not an evil in and of itself. The worship of Mammon is though. A man could use a hammer to help build a dwelling place for the poor or to open a man's skull. In either case it is the heart and intent not objects that the Lord discerns. For he knows that secrets of the heart even those things which are yet secrets from us.

I appreciate what you're saying Forge, and I agree. This appeal is to Candle glow and Luke 1433.

They are the one's espousing Christians shouldn't save money.

 

[ebedmelech]

Like I said earlier, it would be nice if someone came along who did not have a knee-jerk reaction against the teachings of Jesus. We've been through this enough for it to be crystal clear who is defending Jesus and who (in the name of all that is religious) offended by the teachings of Jesus. As far as Job, Abraham, Solomon, Paul, and whoever else you want to name is concerned, let the Son of God be true and every man a liar. I have found that, by making Jesus the Cornerstone, I come to appreciate so much that is good in each of these other people, without having to use them to bludgeon Jesus with. But when you put it the other way around, you end up right alongside the Pharisees, who claimed God's anointing in their war on Jesus too.

Anyway, it would be nice if someone came along who had the ability to at least dream ofa world where everyone believed Jesus and were prepared to act on it instead of being ashamed of his teachings.

Please answer the question. Also while we're at it tell me why Paul instructed Timothy this:
1 Tim 6:17:
Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.

Obviously there were Christians of wealth...so again don't dodge what's being said...please present your case as to Job, as well as the passage above.

 

[Luke1433]

Ebed: "Don't dodge what's being said...please present your case as to Job."

I desire to know no man, save Jesus only. When you stop dodging Jesus, Job and all the rest will take care of themselves.

I have fairly consistently attempted to get people here on this forum which says Lord Lord in so many other ways, to take a serious look at the teachings of Jesus and all I have encountered (apart from Candle Glow) have been people with fingers in their ears and hands over their eyes raving on about how many other people they can show who did not follow Jesus (Most of them having never even heard of Jesus). Sorry, brother, but for me, it's all about Jesus and this obsession with dodging him.

 

[Forge3]

Like I said earlier, it would be nice if someone came along who did not have a knee-jerk reaction against the teachings of Jesus. We've been through this enough for it to be crystal clear who is defending Jesus and who (in the name of all that is religious) offended by the teachings of Jesus. As far as Job, Abraham, Solomon, Paul, and whoever else you want to name is concerned, let the Son of God be true and every man a liar. I have found that, by making Jesus the Cornerstone, I come to appreciate so much that is good in each of these other people, without having to use them to bludgeon Jesus with. But when you put it the other way around, you end up right alongside the Pharisees, who claimed God's anointing in their war on Jesus too.

Anyway, it would be nice if someone came along who had the ability to at least dream ofa world where everyone believed Jesus and were prepared to act on it instead of being ashamed of his teachings.

Oh Lord
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[ebedmelech]

Ebed: "Don't dodge what's being said...please present your case as to Job."

I desire to know no man, save Jesus only. When you stop dodging Jesus, Job and all the rest will take care of themselves.

I have fairly consistently attempted to get people here on this forum which says Lord Lord in so many other ways, to take a serious look at the teachings of Jesus and all I have encountered (apart from Candle Glow) have been people with fingers in their ears and hands over their eyes raving on about how many other people they can show who did not follow Jesus (Most of them having never even heard of Jesus). Sorry, brother, but for me, it's all about Jesus and this obsession with dodging him.

No. You're now rationalizing. So I ask you this...Was Job blessed with wealth?

Again...I will show you this passage:
1 Tim 6:17:
Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.

Now...this passage says God " richly supplies us with ALL things to enjoy". That is scripture, inspired of God. It teaches that God does bless *some* Christians with wealth.

Take this in light of the teachings of Jesus and reconcile the two. Is what Paul is saying here in conflict with Jesus?

Or knowing both are presenting the Word of God what do you do with the two passages (Job & Timothy), in light of what Jesus said?

 

[Luke1433]

Ebed, if you had shown even the slightest interest in wanting to believe what Jesus had said, I might consider your requests reasonable. However, what has consistently happened here is that you and others have ignored the teachings of Jesus, and/or tried to "balance" them by saying exactly the opposite.

I personally believe that the only way to "balance" scripture is to recognise the priority that the Cornerstone must have over the rest of the stones in the building. You do not seem prepared to do that.

You answer me this: Did Jesus bless the poor? Did he say that it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle? Did he say, "Woe unto you that are full now, for you have received your consolation"? Did he say that unless we forsake all that we have, we cannot be one of his followers? Did he tell people to sell all that they have and give to the poor? Did he say not to lay up (i.e. "save") wealth here on earth? Did he say that his wisdom was greater than Solomon's Did he say that birds and flowers do not have jobs and yet God feeds them? Did he say that you cannot work for God and money at the same time?

The list goes on and on, and it hardly needs a word of comment to be understood quite clearly. Yet when it comes to contradicting Jesus, people need to consistently bank on what is NOT written in scripture, as well as little word games and twists.

Even the devil quoted scripture at Jesus. That's easily done. But it all crumbles when it hits the Rock of his teachings.

 

[ebedmelech]

Ebed, if you had shown even the slightest interest in wanting to believe what Jesus had said, I might consider your requests reasonable. However, what has consistently happened here is that you and others have ignored the teachings of Jesus, and/or tried to "balance" them by saying exactly the opposite.

I personally believe that the only way to "balance" scripture is to recognise the priority that the Cornerstone must have over the rest of the stones in the building. You do not seem prepared to do that.

You answer me this: Did Jesus bless the poor? Did he say that it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle? Did he say, "Woe unto you that are full now, for you have received your consolation"? Did he say that unless we forsake all that we have, we cannot be one of his followers? Did he tell people to sell all that they have and give to the poor? Did he say not to lay up (i.e. "save") wealth here on earth? Did he say that his wisdom was greater than Solomon's Did he say that birds and flowers do not have jobs and yet God feeds them? Did he say that you cannot work for God and money at the same time?

The list goes on and on, and it hardly needs a word of comment to be understood quite clearly. Yet when it comes to contradicting Jesus, people need to consistently bank on what is NOT written in scripture, as well as little word games and twists.

Even the devil quoted scripture at Jesus. That's easily done. But it all crumbles when it hits the Rock of his teachings.

Ohhhh! Ok I get it...we can only trust what Jesus said and not the rest of the scriptures...is that correct?

If that is correct then my next question would be how can we know that what Jesus taught is correct, if the writing of the apsotles that Jesus chose, taught, and commanded to teach are not to be trusted.

Let's go down this slippery slope you're on...can:

*Revelation be trusted as it prophecies the 2nd coming of Christ?

*How about the scriptures on salvation, church order, structure, and discipline?

*How about the history of Israel and the prophets (who prophesied the coming of Jesus the Messiah...can we trust those?

*Are the Psalms and Proverbs to be trusted?

In short...what should we believe about the scriptures...only Jesus?

Here are the books of the bible:

Old Testament

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra

Nehemiah
Tobit
Judith
Esther
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Job
Psalms
The Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
The Song of Songs
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus / Sirach
Isaiah
Jeremiah

Lamentations
Baruch
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi


New Testament

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts of Apostles
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians

Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon

Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation

...please show us which ones we should trust...

 

[Omena]

I see the teachings of Jesus as a window into the will of God, and the "rules" for the Kingdom of Heaven. Ebed, I don't think that luke1433 is saying that we should ignore all the other scripture. I think he is pointing out the fact that so many churches today like to reference little convenient proof texts from other parts of the Bible in order to justify NOT obeying the teachings of Jesus. If we DO believe in scripture, then we should be obeying the teachings of Jesus, because they are contained in scripture. Why is it wrong to obey them? Why is it wrong to teach people to obey them?

If we want to know if the teachings of Jesus are correct (or from God), then all we need to do is put them into practice.

 

[ebedmelech]

I see the teachings of Jesus as a window into the will of God, and the "rules" for the Kingdom of Heaven. Ebed, I don't think that luke1433 is saying that we should ignore all the other scripture. I think he is pointing out the fact that so many churches today like to reference little convenient proof texts from other parts of the Bible in order to justify NOT obeying the teachings of Jesus. If we DO believe in scripture, then we should be obeying the teachings of Jesus, because they are contained in scripture. Why is it wrong to obey them? Why is it wrong to teach people to obey them?

If we want to know if the teachings of Jesus are correct (or from God), then all we need to do is put them into practice.

The bible is a "cohesive whole" and therefore all of it is equally authoritative in what it speaks to.

Jesus teachings are no more superior than any other teaching of scripture!

That is why this passage exist:
2 Tim 3:16, 17:

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Now...as I read that it tells me I can trust ALL OF SCRIPTURE. Therefore, one has to look at the WHOLE of what scripture teaches.

In this case it is about money...one must take ALL OF SCRIPTURE on money to come away with a full understanding.

 

[candle glow]

Ohhhh! Ok I get it...we can only trust what Jesus said and not the rest of the scriptures...is that correct?

Totally incorrect, ebed, though I doubt you will acknowledge that.

Luke never said, or even hinted at what you are suggesting here. What he said is the same as what the Bible says.

Jesus is the chief cornerstone. Jesus' wisdom is greater than that of Solomon (from Jesus' own lips). All the bible writers cannot be chief cornerstones. Is that really so difficult for you to understand? It's more simple than a baby understanding how to suck from his/her mother's breast, and yet you can't seem to stop spitting the milk out in protest that ANY mothers milk should be good enough for you.

Why is it that you find yourself wanting to suggest that luke wants to throw the whole bible out by wanting to give the greatest glory to Jesus?

Can you see that this is what you are doing every time luke or I bring up a teaching of Jesus, and you bring up an example from Job or Solomon which contradicts what Jesus said about wealth and working for the purpose of getting more money? Jesus said, on at least two recorded occasions, that his wisdom is GREATER than Solomon's. Can you address that teaching in the context of your "it's all equal" doctrine?

 

[candle glow]

Jesus teachings are no more superior than any other teaching of scripture!

*gets angry*

just letting people know, that what Ebed said here is a lie. Whether it's deliberate or from ignorance, it's a lie.

Jesus is the word of God. Jesus is the Chief corner stone. Jesus' teachings are better than Solomons, or any other person's teachings.

 

[Omena]

Jesus teachings are no more superior than any other teaching of scripture!

Paul mentioned in the start of his letter to the Galatians that if he (or even an angel) should contradict Christ, that he should be damned to hell. That suggests to me that even Paul felt that people (preachers, Bible writers, and even angels! etc.) could say something which contradicts God's will.

I think Candle Glow had a very good point about how Jesus said (of himself) He is wiser than Solomon. I know for me, I feel that Jesus/God is the ultimate authority over my life, and I don't want to let anything come in the way of that (even if they are a saint).

 

[candle glow]

so the plan is to do away with the money and just barter?

No, I never said anything about bartering. I talked about sharing. I think it really shows a worldly mindset that I can talk about sharing, and the best response you can come up with is bartering. Nora, I don't think you are a bad person and I'm not condemning you at all, but I am asking you to look at what's happening here more closely that what you have been.

And this will erase greed from the heart of man?

The teachings of Jesus are the BEST answer we have for dealing with greed, You ask your question as though it is a challenge to me and my solutions here on this thread, but the solutions I've posted are not mine. I'm just quoting Jesus.

And yet, there is opposition from almost all corners of this thread against a literal interpretation of what Jesus taught, even though it can be shown quite clearly that Jesus' own disciples applies his teachings literally, and that the grammatical structure, as well as the spirit of Jesus' teachings, and his own example very strongly support a literal interpretation.

When you say that working for love is only to spread the gospel, I take that to mean preaching or sharing with unbelievers.

Working for love can take MANY different shapes. Was the good samaritan "working for love" when he showed love to his neighbor?

Does someone who volunteers to clean toilets for free show love, even though Jesus never instructed anyone to clean toilets (that we know of) or that such work does not directly address a "salvation message" as is what would normally be promoted by the average church goer?

Then why is there so much effort to teach the other christians on this thread your walk of faith? Walk it and be blessed.

Are you offended at the thought of being taught something new by fellow Christians? Why should something like that offend you, unless you believe that what you are being taught isn't really Christian at all.

I think it would be helpful for all of us if you would just say what you mean a bit more clearly. Otherwise, you just sound confusing and deliberately difficult to respond to.

If your family was provided for without any effort on your part, you are truly getting what you need. I guess it was manna, nothing else was mentioned.

What on earth are you referring to? Can you give quotes or some kind of explanation to help the rest of us understand what you are trying to communicate? Seriously, genuine discussion should not warrant someone begging you to clarify your point...

A million questions could be asked, but not if a response was just an attack.

Can you explain what the attack is? Can you give a quote? Otherwise, what is it you are really trying to communicate here? Once again, please be clear so others don't have to either guess at what you are trying to say, or, in their more patient moments, beg you for clarification.

 

[ebedmelech]

*gets angry*

just letting people know, that what Ebed said here is a lie. Whether it's deliberate or from ignorance, it's a lie.

Jesus is the word of God. Jesus is the Chief corner stone. Jesus' teachings are better than Solomons, or any other person's teachings.

Get angry if you want! I did not lie at all!!!

I've shown that ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED OF GOD!

So now...show me where it's said that we should take what Jesus said over any thing else in scripture!

Jesus had a high view of scripture...how many times did he say "it is written" or "have you not read"...showing the authority of scripture???

Let me show you just in Matthew's Gospel:
Matthew 12:3:
3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,

Matthew 12:5
5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matthew19:4
4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Matthew 21:16
16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these children are saying?” And Jesus *said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies You have prepared praise for Yourself’?”

Matthew 21:42
42 Jesus *said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,
‘The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the chief corner stone;
This came about from the Lord,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

Matthew 22:31
31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:

Seems to me Jesus thinks the written Word is to be heeded, whether He said it or His apostles.

Was it not you who said Paul was mistaken in scripture? When did Jesus appoint you an apostle?

I know Peter, John, and Paul were made apostles by Jesus...and Jesus commanded them to teach IN HIS NAME...WHICH MEANS ON HIS AUTHORITY!!!

So you are the liar saying that Paul was in error!!!

ALL SCRIPTURE IS EQUALLY AUTHORITATIVE!!! Can you prove otherwise?

 

[Omena]

If Jesus' teachings need to be lined up with the other scriptures, then why do you think Jesus told us to do such radical things as sell all we have, stop working for money/food, go into all the world preaching the Gospel etc.? Do you think he said those things just for kicks?

Ebed, what is it about the teachings of Jesus that make you so angry?

 

[ebedmelech]

Paul mentioned in the start of his letter to the Galatians that if he (or even an angel) should contradict Christ, that he should be damned to hell. That suggests to me that even Paul felt that people (preachers, Bible writers, and even angels! etc.) could say something which contradicts God's will.

I think Candle Glow had a very good point about how Jesus said (of himself) He is wiser than Solomon. I know for me, I feel that Jesus/God is the ultimate authority over my life, and I don't want to let anything come in the way of that (even if they are a saint).

Paul is not saying that he was in error at all though...look at what He said:
Gal 1:6-9:
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

So I would think you're not reading that correctly.

His point is that he wouldn't teach contrary to Jesus...that's why he said *if*. His seriousness on the matter causes him in his apostolic authority to pronounce a curse on anyone who does teach contrary to scripture!

 

[candle glow]

Get angry if you want! I did not lie at all!!!

Okay, thanks for your permission, and yes, you did lie. But hey, it's not like I'm saying you are a lier, but just that, at least in this one particular instance, what you are saying about Jesus being equal to any other guy who happens to speak in the bible, is a lie.

it's a lie, ebed.

I've shown that ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED OF GOD!

Sure, people can be inspired by God, but inspiration does not make one equal to Jesus. Once again I find myself struggling to understand how you cannot understand this.

I don't think it's a lack of intelligence on your part, but rather, it appears to be a deep desire to believe that there really IS some way to excuse what Jesus said about money and materialism.

Even without scriptural support, is it really so hard for you to admit that Jesus is better than Paul, or Solomon, or anyone else? Why is that? what reason could you have for believing that Solomon is equal to Jesus when Jesus himself says VERY MUCH the opposite? You've STILL not addressed that issue.

Luke and I have been saying right from the start that your interpretations of what Jesus said are contradictory to what he actually said.

The fact that you steadfastly choose to ignore what Jesus said about his wisdom being greater than solomons, and insisting that Jesus is equal to solomon, lends obvious credit to our conclusion that your conclusions about Jesus' teachings are quite opposite to what he actually said.

So now...show me where it's said that we should take what Jesus said over any thing else in scripture!

Okay...

LK 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

Is Solomon, or Paul , or Peter, or Job the "head of the corner"? Does it sound to you like Jesus is equating his authority to any other person?

Really, ebed, where does this struggle against Jesus' sovereignty, his right to command us, come from? Jesus said his authority is greater than that of solomon, and yet you've still not addressed that issue.

I personally think you've not done so because your whole argument would crumble to the ground if you did so; you would be forced to acknowledge Jesus' right to command his followers regardless of what any other person has to say about it.

You would no longer have anyone to hide behind.

 

[Omena]

So I would think you're not reading that correctly.

His point is that he wouldn't teach contrary to Jesus...that's why he said *if*. His seriousness on the matter causes him in his apostolic authority to pronounce a curse on anyone who does teach contrary to scripture!

I wasn't reading it correctly? Did you read what I wrote about that verse? I paraphrased it (with the "if" included), but the the lesson I got from it is that people CAN contradict God (it sounds like you believe that too, since you're fighting so hard against the things Jesus said). And one other thing that Paul wrote which seems to be evidence of him straying away from (not necessarily contradicting) God's will, is in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians.

That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.