Living by Faith--Is it for today?

[Luke1433]

I would like to get some discussion going about the concept of living by faith. I have heard the phrase used in relation to certain "faith ministries", but it is rarely seen as the norm for Christians. Yet it seems like in the early church, and especially amongst the first disciples, living by faith was very much the norm.

Can we discuss this with open minds, looking to find the truth in the teachings of Jesus?

I hope so.

 

[candle glow]

Hi luke,

Interesting topic. In my experience, I've found that the phrase "living by faith" can mean many different things to many different people. I view it as living by faith in the values of the Kingdom of Heaven, rather than by any other values, whether they be the values of society, or the values of our family/friends, or the values of our church.

 

[Tigger45]

5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

I believe this is saying we should walk out our lives with a heavenly perspective instead of a worldly one.

 

[Luke1433]

In the church I grew up in, "living by faith" always meant trusting God for your support... as in "What do you do for a living?" "Oh, I live by faith."

That, in particular, is what I was interested in discussing. That is, whether Christians can trust God for our material support, without having to work for money, or even if God wants us to be doing that. And if he does want us to be doing that, how does it work? Do we just do nothing? etc. etc.

 

[candle glow]

I believe this is saying we should walk out our lives with a heavenly perspective instead of a worldly one.

Hi tigger. thanks for sharing that verse, and an explanation as to what you think it means. I think your conclusion sounds very similar to my own thoughts, that we should reject worldly ways and, instead, seek out heavenly ways.

It reminds me of the Lords prayer, where Jesus says, "thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven".

For so long I read that without really thinking about what the words are actually saying. I viewed it as a ritualistic kind of prayer without much practical meaning, like a kind of "holy attitude" rather than any literal meaning behind the words.

But then one time I heard someone question it; what does God do in heaven, and how do we do THAT down here on Earth?

I think this relates to the issue of living by faith (and in particular what luke mentioned about working for money) because I think in heaven there is no money. The beings of heaven work for love and god takes care of their needs.

I believe that is what Jesus was telling us to pray for, that we ALSO work for love, that we bring to this world a little slice of Heaven, through our actions and how we live.

We cannot demonstrate the values of heaven if we do not ACT on those values. If we follow the patterns and values of the world, then the world will not see anything different about us at all.

I know some people talk about how they say "god bless you" at their work, or whatever, but in the end all the world sees is someone who talks differently, but still suckles from the same teat as the rest of the world.

We need a new motivation for why we work. I believe "living by faith" is that new motivation.

 

[mjere]

I love the layman's definition of faith, which reads:

"Your positive response to what God's already done/provided."

There are alot of faith messages that don't really preach this. They present it as a spiritual warfare message, but the more I learn about faith, the more I understand its value, and the more I enjoy experiencing the eternal life provided for me through Jesus' death and resurrection.

Once you start using your faith in small areas, it gets you pumped!Juiced!Excited!Hopeful about your future.

Faith makes the difference between Christ profiting you at all, or whether you should have done a deathbed confession. I used to hear about people doing deathbed confessions, and I thought it was great they got a chance to give their life to the Lord before dying, but now.... I can imagine them getting to heaven and thinking, "Can I go back and try this again? I could have been having a great time on earth!"

Just experiencing a steadiness in mood from day to day, is enough to praise God over. His mercy is endless!

 

[Luke1433]

What Candle Glow has said about living on earth the way that God lives in heaven (i.e. not working for money, but just loving people in practical ways) is consistent with what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount, i.e. that birds and flowers don't have jobs, but God feeds them, and if we will seek his kingdom, he will meet our material needs.

That whole term "kingdom of heaven" suggests a way of life that is fundamentally different to the kingdoms of this world, and Jesus explained it that way too, when he said, "For all these (material) things do the nations of the world seek after, but it shall not be so with you." It seems like he was saying that this is a very fundamental difference between what he came to bring and what we see happening around us every day.

Then there is the fact that Jesus draws the line between working for God and working for money: "You cannot work for two employers at the same time, for you will end up cheating one of them. You cannot work for God and mammon." Where you would expect him to be saying, "You cannot work for God and the Devil at the same time", he inserts money instead. It's like the kingdom of heaven doesn't need money, whereas it is fundamental to the kingdoms of the earth.

That is the "heavenly perspective" in contrast to the "earthly perspective".

It's worth looking up and reading all of these verses in context, in Matthew 6:19-34

 

[Slimplim]

The bible says 'that whatever is not of faith is sin'. Now I have to locate where it is in Romans I think, at the end of a chapter. Yes it is the last verse in chapter 14 and verse 23. The more we lean on faith to live, the more we are leaning on the Lord Jesus and on His guidance for our lives hour by hour. That's how we should be living, not as independently minded as we can be most of the time. Living by faith is talking everything over with the Lord as we are about to do things in our day to day living.

 

[Forge3]

Living by faith is living in trust with God. It can be as simple a thing as a child looking up to a loving Father with reverence, joy and watching so as to imitate and do the things He is doing

 

[Luke1433]

The picture of St. Francis on Forge's post is a reminder to me that St. Francis was someone who took Jesus seriously with regard to "taking no thought for food and clothing". Have you seen the movie "Brother Sun, Sister Moon", Forge?

 

[candle glow]

I love the layman's definition of faith, which reads:

"Your positive response to what God's already done/provided."

I've not heard this saying before, but I like it. Thanks for sharing that, mjere. No matter how much we do, we can never hope to claim anything for ourselves, and yet, at the same time, I don't think that is an absolute rule, either.

I think God wants us to develop individual character where we make decisions based on our own morals and I think he wants to reward us for those decisions; it's just that he knows we have a tendency to get proud about our own greatness, so he adds in a lot of reminders for us to stay humble and always give him the credit, while leaving it to HIM to give us any credit for our actions.

I used to hear about people doing deathbed confessions, and I thought it was great they got a chance to give their life to the Lord before dying, but now.... I can imagine them getting to heaven and thinking, "Can I go back and try this again? I could have been having a great time on earth!"

I really like the concept you present here, about a genuine desire to be able to "try it again". However, I think the lesson needs to be seriously sharpened to the point that it causes us to feel uncomfortable (maybe even a bit guilty) BEFORE we die, to change our behavior drastically in order to conform with what God really wants from us.

I believe that's what the parable of lazarus and the rich man was about; once we die, it's too late to change. We need to change NOW!

Living by faith is talking everything over with the Lord as we are about to do things in our day to day living.

hey slim! I liked your quote about hearing from God hour to hour. It reminds me very much of what another person has tried to teach me for many years, but which I still fall far short of, though I think it's a very worthy goal.

I'm intrigued by your explanation here about living by faith and talking everything over with the lord. Can you give an example to clarify your position? (preferably an example which relates to the topic of living by faith and how that relates to finances).

 

[ebedmelech]

Absolutely living by faith is for today...and tomorrow...and a 1000 years from now!

Abraham, to whom God gave the promise had faith, and God told him:
Gen:12:3
And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Paul in Romans 4 says this about Abraham:
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you&#8221 in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

So we see "faith" is still the operative word, and we who have faith just like Abraham are his descendants!

Just as is affirmed in Galatians 3, still using Abraham:
6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

That brings us to Hebrews 11..."the hall of faith" where God says in Hebrews 11:6:
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

The writer of Hebrews then names many believer throughout the OT who were saved by faith...and their faith was demonstrated by their actions.

Indeed today we are to live by faith!!!

 

[candle glow]

HI ebed, thanks for posting those verses. However, I think luke's point was specifically about materialism and monetary concerns, like working for money vs working for love.

Jesus said that we cannot work for both without cheating on one or the other. I personally feel a bit bothered when people tell me that they feel they would die without money.

This is because money in itself has never created anything. People do the work; it just so happens that they will NOT work unless they get paid. But I think that is a very different system to the one God uses, where people help each other because they want to, and not out of fear of dying if they don't get money.

 

[Water Walker]

What is faith that we should live by it?

Hebrews 11:1 says;"11 Now faith is the reality[a] of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.

Footnotes:
Hebrews 11:1 Or assurance
Hebrews 11:1 Or conviction or evidence

So that being the case we know God is real, He created the world, He will provide for all our needs Matt.6:25-31

25 “This is why I tell you: Don’t worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Isn't life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the sky: They don’t sow or reap or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you worth more than they? 27 Can any of you add a single cubit to his height[a] by worrying? 28 And why do you worry about clothes? Learn how the wildflowers of the field grow: they don’t labor or spin thread. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was adorned like one of these! 30 If that’s how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and thrown into the furnace tomorrow, won’t He do much more for you—you of little faith? 31 So don’t worry, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’

The reality of it is we don't have to do anything these things will be added to us if we seek the kingdom of God first.Matthew 6:33

33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be provided for you.

But we can not live by faith alone , for without works it is dead.James 2:14-26

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way faith, if it doesn't have works, is dead by itself.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder.
20 Foolish man! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless?
21 Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.
23 So the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Not that works saves us but it is a result of that saving. More later

 

[candle glow]

Hi walter,

Can you be more specific as to how your post relates to what Jesus said about working for love vs working for money?

 

[Luke1433]

I thought "Walter"s post was excellent. I think he IS saying that we stop working for money when we start working for God.

Water Walker: "The reality of it is we don't have to do anything these things will be added to us if we seek the kingdom of God first.Matthew 6:33"

In fact, I have often thought of faith like walking on water. Peter had to be a bit "overboard" to experience it, but I think that is what God would like to see us doing.

It was also good that Water Walker said that faith without works is dead.

There are so many who argue against "works" when it comes to things like obeying Jesus, but as soon as money is mentioned, it's "Oh, if you don't work, you can't eat." I think that working for God from day to day (rather than working for money) is what gets us out of the theory and into the practical of God's miracle-working provision.

 

[ebedmelech]

HI ebed, thanks for posting those verses. However, I think luke's point was specifically about materialism and monetary concerns, like working for money vs working for love.

Jesus said that we cannot work for both without cheating on one or the other. I personally feel a bit bothered when people tell me that they feel they would die without money.

This is because money in itself has never created anything. People do the work; it just so happens that they will NOT work unless they get paid. But I think that is a very different system to the one God uses, where people help each other because they want to, and not out of fear of dying if they don't get money.

Hey CG.

Ok. I get it.

Living by faith as far as God meeting our needs should always be the focus.

The fact that many of us can get up in the morning, have a choice of clothes to put on, and decide the food we will have for breakfast should be seen as abundant blessing compared with many others in this world who know not where their next meal comes, and only have the clothes on their back.

I wonder how many of us would give up all God has blessed us with if he asked us?

The health, wealth, and prosperity gospel espousing that this is "living by faith" is on a very faulty foundation here. Jesus said "to whom much is given, much is required".

I think the example of the "Rich Young Ruler is in order here. He had much...and he approaches Jesus in Matthew 19 to find out what he should do for eternal life. Jesus runs off the Commandments, and he says he has kept them all. Jesus then hits him where his heart truly was and said:
Matthew 19:21, 22:
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

His heart was in his riches...which leads me to wonder how many calling themselves Christians, that are well off monetarily, will follow God if he took all they had?

This is something that has a balance, and Christians really need to check themselves on this matter, because God demands our stewardship of what we have.

Prosperity is only "a sign" of God's blessing...it is not the only sign of God's blessing. Peter and John counted it a blessing that they were beaten because of their faith!!! It's a very faulty foundation that builds on the concept that "living by faith" means being prosperous.

This is a very personal topic, and one that Christians have to examine themselves about.

Larry Burkett founded the ministry of Christian Financial Concepts. He has passed on but he often said as a financial counselor that he saw "giving" as a major way of measuring one's relationship to God".

I would now pose this question to all of us:

With all that God has given into your hand (whatever that is), how open is your hand to allow God to take out of it whatever He wishes???

 

[Water Walker]

There are so many who argue against "works" when it comes to things like obeying Jesus, but as soon as money is mentioned, it's "Oh, if you don't work, you can't eat." I think that working for God from day to day (rather than working for money) is what gets us out of the theory and into the practical of God's miracle-working provision.

We have to understand there is a little/lot more to it then our English language can express. I believe what Jesus was teaching in Matthew 6 as I quoted earlier is not to make those things, that we need to live greater then seeking Him.
Looking at all scripture we see that God does not want us to be slackers and lazy as mentioned in Proverbs many times, and that we see Paul working in the New Testament mending nets to provide for himself without burdening the local church. He taught; that all we do we do it as if it was for God. My life has lead me down many different types of jobs over the years and I have tried to always keep that idea in my mind. I can say this I have never been fired and am able to go back to any place I have left and get a job if necessary. (not that I would want to in many cases LOL)
Funny thing is the more I thought that I was working for God in what I did , the more I was blessed financially and looked at by fellow works as a good guy etc. The Point is we need to be a new creation and in the world as such, we will stand out without having to preach and pound the Word of God into the people. There will be time for sharing and caring once we live as if God does live in us.

 

[Water Walker]

Hey CG.

Ok. I get it.

Living by faith as far as God meeting our needs should always be the focus.

The fact that many of us can get up in the morning, have a choice of clothes to put on, and decide the food we will have for breakfast should be seen as abundant blessing compared with many others in this world who know not where their next meal comes, and only have the clothes on their back.

I wonder how many of us would give up all God has blessed us with if he asked us?

The health, wealth, and prosperity gospel espousing that this is "living by faith" is on a very faulty foundation here. Jesus said "to whom much is given, much is required".

I think the example of the "Rich Young Ruler is in order here. He had much...and he approaches Jesus in Matthew 19 to find out what he should do for eternal life. Jesus runs off the Commandments, and he says he has kept them all. Jesus then hits him where his heart truly was and said:
Matthew 19:21, 22:
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

His heart was in his riches...which leads me to wonder how many calling themselves Christians, that are well off monetarily, will follow God if he took all they had?

This is something that has a balance, and Christians really need to check themselves on this matter, because God demands our stewardship of what we have.

Prosperity is only "a sign" of God's blessing...it is not the only sign of God's blessing. Peter and John counted it a blessing that they were beaten because of their faith!!! It's a very faulty foundation that builds on the concept that "living by faith" means being prosperous.

This is a very personal topic, and one that Christians have to examine themselves about.

Larry Burkett founded the ministry of Christian Financial Concepts. He has passed on but he often said as a financial counselor that he saw "giving" as a major way of measuring one's relationship to God".

Dido to all the above ...bless you

I would now pose this question to all of us:

With all that God has given into your hand (whatever that is), how open is your hand to allow God to take out of it whatever He wishes???

Funny you should ask that, I would say all of what is left because I have only a little left.
Anything material things no problem I would not shed a tear; my money ,my house, my ferrets, my snake ,all my possessions etc.
Now for other things like my wife, my 3 sons, my 3 grand kids, my dog , my friends, that would be a hard pill to swallow but I would choke it down, there is where faith would have to come in like Jobs'

 

[candle glow]

Looking at all scripture we see that God does not want us to be slackers and lazy as mentioned in Proverbs many times, and that we see Paul working in the New Testament mending nets to provide for himself without burdening the local church.

Hi walter. Thanks for sharing this example of how you understand living by faith.

However, I disagree with the conclusion you've reached regarding the example of Paul making tents for a short time. I believe Paul made a mistake by doing this, and that Paul himself recognized it as a mistake.

He was having trouble with the church at Corinth and didn't want them to use their sharing with him as an excuse not to listen to him (something along the lines of, "hey Paul how can you criticise us about materialism when you are depending on us for your needs?)

To get around that he stopped asking them for help with his material needs and decided to provide for himself. BUT, as good as his intentions were, he was still wrong, because what he needed to do was to rebuke and correct the Corinthians about their bad attitudes towards helping Paul, instead of letting them get away with it by trying to provide for himself.

The story about the tents is recorded in Acts 18 (I think) but Paul also addresses this issue in 2Corinthians 12, too.

In the Acts reference, it says that when Paul's Christian buddies, Timothy and Silas arrived in Corinth and found Paul making tents, Paul was "pressed in the spirit" and went out with them to preach the gospel.

Wasn't he already preaching the gospel? Well, apparently not, and it's the arrival of his friends which woke him up to the fact. It's like he got so caught up in trying to teach the Corinthians that he forgot about the example he was supposed to be setting for his other disciples, like Timothy and Silas, and when they arrived he was reminded of that, and forsook the foolishness of trying to provide for himself for the sake of keeping peach with other Christians who have a bad attitude about material provision.

As Christians, the Corinthians had an OBLIGATION to provide for their spiritual teacher (and any other Christian brothers coming to them in the name of Jesus); rather than giving him a hard time about it, they SHOULD have seen it as an honor to care for him.