Living a lie

[Criada]

Firstly, I am sorry that you have had so many unpleasant responses. It's a very hard position for your friend to be in.
My advice would be that he step down from the program for the sake of his own integrity. I know he enjoys it, and likes the kids, but, spending time teaching kids to believe something which he doesn't believe himself must be hard, and ultimately unhelpful for him and the kids. I'm sure there are secular programs he could take on where he can help kids without being forced to lie to them.
As for telling his family, that is harder. If he is 30 and not living at home, I don't see any necessity to tell them if it will cause hurt. Silence is not lying.

In the case of the kids, that is difficult, because they are not in a position to make a totally free decision. But I think there parents would be more understanding than they think... there are very few Christians who have been Christian all their lives and never gone through a period of doubt or unbelief. I think most of their parents have probably been there, and will understand.

I hope that your friend manages to sort out the situation and find some way of feeling at ease with himself whilst still helping kids in some way.

 

[TwWhittaker]

Holy macarole! There are a LOT of people here!

LOL

Excuse me. I'm new. I'm stunned how many posts on this thread in such a short time

To the OP, my thoughts are this: these kids are in a tough situation with which I can really empathize. I think it's growing more and more common these days, and they need guidance and loving support. Unfortunately, the best guidance will come from their parents, whom they seem to be hiding their truth from.

Personally, I would advocate that they pretend and go forth as though nothing had changed; they can make non secular decisions and pursue that route if they choose when they are adults. Their parents would wish that the pursue the same course even if they reveal their true thoughts to them, so this is simply a safer route to the same end.

Frankly, this is roughly the same advice given to Mother Theresa when she spoke to the Papacy of her lost faith, only it was described to her as a deliberate act of neglect on God's part, that she may suffer.

@Van, let ye who has never lied first speak about liars. Or, perhaps consider this:

a) God loves all of his children
b) All of us have lied
c) You say God hates liars

Something is wrong here; one of these statements is not true.

Peace and love!

 

[Bro_Sam]

@Van, let ye who has never lied first speak about liars. Or, perhaps consider this:

a) God loves all of his children
b) All of us have lied
c) You say God hates liars

Something is wrong here; one of these statements is not true.

It's not that one of the statements is not true, it's that your sylogism is based on a false premise. Not everyone is God's child.

 

[Criada]

Remember, folks, this isn't a debate area
Answers are supposed to be to the OP not to others in the thread.

 

[Bro_Sam]

This is because I only bring forth the situations that trouble me. And yes Christians are painted in a bad light in those situations but that is simply a part of reality.

Really? So then Christians are always the big, bad, bullies picking on the poor little atheists? No Christian ever shows kindness or understanding to an atheist? Atheists never do anything wrong?

It's very convenient when one has such hostility toward Christians as you do to shade the truth.

The fact is that your "friend" is deceiving his family and his church. Your friend is violating the covenant he made with his church. By continuing to lie and to remain in this program, your friend is jeopardizing the integrity of his church's program.

Whether or not he tells his family is up to him. But he does have a moral obligation to tell his church that he has no intent to honor the covenant he made with them. And they have every right to kick him out.

You would like to believe so.

It's not that I would like to or not like to, it's just that it's too one sided to be credible.

 

[DarkProphet]

Really? So then Christians are always the big, bad, bullies picking on the poor little atheists?

No, it's Christians immutable beliefs that cause problems for everyone, not just atheists.

No Christian ever shows kindness or understanding to an atheist?

Never said that, in fact I said I HAVE had good experiences with Christians, just not many. Think long and hard about how YOU are acting toward me when I say that many of my experiences with Christians have been hostile.

Atheists never do anything wrong?

Never said or implied that.

It's very convenient when one has such hostility toward Christians as you do to shade the truth.

Says the pot to the kettle.

The fact is that your "friend" is deceiving his family and his church. Your friend is violating the covenant he made with his church. By continuing to lie and to remain in this program, your friend is jeopardizing the integrity of his church's program.

Whether or not he tells his family is up to him. But he does have a moral obligation to tell his church that he has no intent to honor the covenant he made with them. And they have every right to kick him out.

Again, feel the conditional Christian love.

It's not that I would like to or not like to, it's just that it's too one sided to be credible.

How is it one sided?

 

[Emmy]

Dear DarkProphet. If your friend means a lot to you, pray for him. It will not be good for his health to pretend, and sooner or later he will have to own up, or leave. God does not force or coerce us in any way, and He will know anyway. I say this with love, DarkProphet. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Bro_Sam]

No, it's Christians immutable beliefs that cause problems for everyone, not just atheists.

Really? Do you have any examples?

Never said that, in fact I said I HAVE had good experiences with Christians, just not many.

Then I can't wait to see you start a thread about them.

Think long and hard about how YOU are acting toward me when I say that many of my experiences with Christians have been hostile.

OK. After thinking long and hard about it, I've been asking you questions. How is that hostile?

Says the pot to the kettle.

And can you give me any examples of my having done that?

Again, feel the conditional Christian love.

I see. So then, expecting someone to live up to a covenant he chose to make, and expecting them not to decieve people isn't loving?

How is it one sided?

Because only one side is presented.

 

[Digit]

No, it's Christians immutable beliefs that cause problems for everyone, not just atheists.

I'm sorry but you cannot support this. I can show you that atheists alone hold a tab for ~92% of the murders of a human being under an atheistic government or regime - this is from the very first account of a recorded war or conflict in mankind's history. Religious causes to these wars and conflicts total just over 7%. I see this all the time, "Christian beliefs..." "Religion..." and so on are the cause of so many problems, but you've been had - you've bought in to a lie and no one can actually show this to be true, in fact the opposite is true.

Never said that, in fact I said I HAVE had good experiences with Christians, just not many. Think long and hard about how YOU are acting toward me when I say that many of my experiences with Christians have been hostile.

Whilst I can't speak for everyone something that will help you is if you distinguish between the person and their beliefs. You are going to find jerks no matter where you go really and Christians are human beings battling with the same issues as everyone else. In addition I would say it's harder for Christians as we know how we should act and behave and it's often harder to do so in the face of adversity.

Says the pot to the kettle.

Again, feel the conditional Christian love.

With comments like this I would be wary of the plank in your own eye.

With that said - is your question answered? Your friend only has two choices? Tell the truth or live a lie and only one of those leads to an area where he maintains his self-respect, integrity and honesty.

 

[2 King]

Living a lie

Should a whole group suffer for the sake of one's selfishness?

 

[DarkProphet]

OK. After thinking long and hard about it, I've been asking you questions. How is that hostile?

And can you give me any examples of my having done that?

Seeing as you cannot get a basic saying and that you are adding nothing constructive to the conversation I will not be responding to you anymore.

I see. So then, expecting someone to live up to a covenant he chose to make, and expecting them not to decieve people isn't loving?

Yet another point you completely miss.

 

[DarkProphet]

I'm sorry but you cannot support this. I can show you that atheists alone hold a tab for ~92% of the murders of a human being under an atheistic government or regime - this is from the very first account of a recorded war or conflict in mankind's history. Religious causes to these wars and conflicts total just over 7%. I see this all the time, "Christian beliefs..." "Religion..." and so on are the cause of so many problems, but you've been had - you've bought in to a lie and no one can actually show this to be true, in fact the opposite is true.

You would be hard pressed to show what you claim as war is waged for a variety of reasons (religion being only one). In any case I was not thinking about war when I made the statement. One area where religion, Christianity in particular, has affected people is in scientific progress. There are specific examples of this, Galileo being a good one. Let me bring up a more contemporary example though, Alan Turing. He is considered the father of modern computing. His contributions to the field of cryptography helped win the war in WWII. His contributions to the field of computer science enabled the computer revolution that allows us to have this discussion on this forum. He was also gay. Because of that he was arrested and driven to suicide. A great mind lost because of narrow minded and immutable beliefs such as yours.

This is only one example of many in only one area of many.

Whilst I can't speak for everyone something that will help you is if you distinguish between the person and their beliefs. You are going to find jerks no matter where you go really and Christians are human beings battling with the same issues as everyone else. In addition I would say it's harder for Christians as we know how we should act and behave and it's often harder to do so in the face of adversity.

Except when you use your beliefs to justify your actions. Think about all the gay bashing churches or white supremacist churches. Those are extreme examples but the fact is you can justify anything using religion and never feel guilty or think about it.

With comments like this I would be wary of the plank in your own eye.

Do you know why the kids told me? Because they knew that I would not judge them for not believing and show some sympathy. Yet more concepts that particular poster does not grasp.

With that said - is your question answered?

Overall people have said that he should come clean and leave the program.

There are mixed results with the rest of it seems that most Christians would prefer that he be honest and be shunned by his family. Same with the kids.

Moral absolutism at work.

Your friend only has two choices?

Tell the truth or live a lie and only one of those leads to an area where he maintains his self-respect, integrity and honesty.

At the cost of a program he loves and his family.

 

[DarkProphet]

Should a whole group suffer for the sake of one's selfishness?

Could you elaborate?

 

[98cwitr]

Yes.



That would be correct.

and by that you do realize that we will never come to a sole agreement on the given topic because we believe that morality is produced from two different places?

 

[DarkProphet]

and by that you do realize that we will never come to a sole agreement on the given topic because we believe that morality is produced from two different places?

I do realize that, I want to get a Christian take on this situation especially as it is caused by Christians. The tone of the responses though were unexpected.

 

[DarkProphet]

Dp

 

[98cwitr]

I do realize that, I want to get a Christian take on this situation especially as it is caused by Christians. The tone of the responses though were unexpected.

but it is not caused by Christians...it is causation produced by God...solely of God, because He loves us...all of us....even you and me.

 

[2 King]

Could you elaborate?

Of course. In the Original Post you said:

*snip*
he has to live a lie to be a part of the program. It's a large part of his life so leaving it would not be easy.
*snip*

As others have pointed out, this could jeopardize the integrity of the program, perhaps even the church itself. Morally speaking, it would seem that he would be selfish to continue "living a lie" for the sake that it is a huge part of his life thus he won't leave. Correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Yet another point you completely miss.

You keep saying that, but you still haven't corrected me. Other Christian posters are telling you essentially the same thing I'm telling you. I would think that when everybody in a thread is missing your point, you'd want to clarify exactly what your point is.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Of course. In the Original Post you said:

As others have pointed out, this could jeprodize the integrity of the program, perhaps even the church itself. Morally speaking, it would seem that he would be selfish to continue "living a lie" for the sake that it is a huge part of his life thus he won't leave. Correct me if I am mistaken.

The alleged "person" in DarkProphet's story is lying to his family, lying to his church, is in an ongoing state of breaking a covenant he made with them, and putting the integrity of the church's program at risk.

He has no respect for his family, for his church, most of all, for God, or for the children in the program, but it's the Christians who are the bad guys.