Living a lie

[seashale76]

This is bit different though because he went from Christian to non-Christian.

Believe it or not, there are some churches that wouldn't kick unbelieving kids out of the youth group or the church- even adults for that matter. In my church, for example, we had an out of the closet atheist who enjoyed regularly attending with his wife (she certainly didn't pressure him to go to church). There was no pressure to convert (Orthodox don't work that way), and we freely accepted him into our non-sacramental activities, such as book club, our food pantry volunteerism, etc. After years of this, he shocked even our priest last year with his declaration of wanting to convert. We even have a divorced couple who both still attend and neither have been rejected.

To be clear, he is not in charge and does not give Bible lessons (the director does that) but he does so much that without him the program would collapse.

Ah. I'll be blunt. If the program collapses with his absence, then someone else will either step up to the plate, or not. Either way, it is the concern of the church in question. Your friend should not feel that the entire thing is his burden to bear. If he feels a call to work with youth, then there are plenty of organizations for him to get involved with where he doesn't have to compromise himself.

And if they tell and the parents DO reject them then what? Like I said my friend is 30 and afraid to tell his parents for fear of rejection, and they are less Christian then most of the parents at this church.

Yes, after they become drunks and then go to AA and then they can tell people their testimony. At least that's what I've seen.

Nowadays most people, especially in my area, cannot live independently at 18 so it's not so simple as that either.

I work with young teens. Nine times out of ten, their parents have issues that make the lives of their offspring that much more difficult. Parents have so much influence over their kids lives and often underestimate themselves in this area. If their kids are rejecting the faith, it is likely due to the fact that their parents aren't living it anyway, so the kids find it pointless. A parent who would reject their child under such circumstances (and I have no doubt that it would likely be under such circumstances) is a hypocrite of the highest order. It would be ideal for lines of communication to open up in families instead of everyone hiding behind a false veneer of whatever.

There are no easy answers here. Kids often do have to grin and bear it until such a time as they are independent. Legally it is eighteen and I know it isn't always that easy- but even still- I don't think most parents would throw their children out for a difference of beliefs.

Also, regarding the whole altar call/public confession thing: Yeah, it's not cool. I am ever so glad not to have to deal with that farce anymore.

 

[Van]

Hi Dark Prophet,

"That is the ideal but the church already view them as "members" and this church is less then welcoming to non-members." They need to stop attending that "church" and go to one that seems less like a cult.

"the program would collapse (he is actually a main staff there)." Let it collapse, God does not need liars who are at best "blind guides." God needs believers with the courage to tell it like it is. How many of us have heard "great testimonies" only to find out latter is was phony. To advocate such behavior is to advocate a "5th column."

Another principle of Christianity is "two wrongs do not make a right." Lets assume if the kids tell the truth, they will be abused by their parents." This is just another "enabling scenario" to justify lying. The kids should tell the truth and deal with whatever are the consequences. It is sad but true, you cannot embrace Christ unless you are willing to put it all on the line.

On a side note, to lift this discussion beyond trying to justify lying for a "good cause" lets consider this question, does the Bible ever suggest believers can lie? Yes. Not acting as individuals, but acting under the cover of government authority, like in the military, it is ok to provide "misinformation" as part of the governments role to protect its community (i.e nation) from harm from an opposing force. Rahab springs to mind.

 

[DarkProphet]

Believe it or not, there are some churches that wouldn't kick unbelieving kids out of the youth group or the church- even adults for that matter. In my church, for example, we had an out of the closet atheist who enjoyed regularly attending with his wife (she certainly didn't pressure him to go to church). There was no pressure to convert (Orthodox don't work that way), and we freely accepted him into our non-sacramental activities, such as book club, our food pantry volunteerism, etc. After years of this, he shocked even our priest last year with his declaration of wanting to convert. We even have a divorced couple who both still attend and neither have been rejected.

This particular church is FAR from that.

Ah. I'll be blunt. If the program collapses with his absence, then someone else will either step up to the plate, or not. Either way, it is the concern of the church in question. Your friend should not feel that the entire thing is his burden to bear. If he feels a call to work with youth, then there are plenty of organizations for him to get involved with where he doesn't have to compromise himself.

I suppose you are right but he has deep connections to this particular program.

I work with young teens. Nine times out of ten, their parents have issues that make the lives of their offspring that much more difficult. Parents have so much influence over their kids lives and often underestimate themselves in this area. If their kids are rejecting the faith, it is likely due to the fact that their parents aren't living it anyway, so the kids find it pointless. A parent who would reject their child under such circumstances (and I have no doubt that it would likely be under such circumstances) is a hypocrite of the highest order. It would be ideal for lines of communication to open up in families instead of everyone hiding behind a false veneer of whatever.

There are no easy answers here. Kids often do have to grin and bear it until such a time as they are independent. Legally it is eighteen and I know it isn't always that easy- but even still- I don't think most parents would throw their children out for a difference of beliefs.

Well at least the parents don't follow the OT rules regarding children with different beliefs.

Also, regarding the whole altar call/public confession thing: Yeah, it's not cool. I am ever so glad not to have to deal with that farce anymore.

That was a major gripe of mine when people give testimonials. That they call down people to "accept Jesus" I'm not even Christian and I think it's a farce, as if they would be saved by a public display.

 

[DarkProphet]

Hi Dark Prophet,

"That is the ideal but the church already view them as "members" and this church is less then welcoming to non-members." They need to stop attending that "church" and go to one that seems less like a cult.

I concur

"the program would collapse (he is actually a main staff there)." Let it collapse, God does not need liars who are at best "blind guides." God needs believers with the courage to tell it like it is. How many of us have heard "great testimonies" only to find out latter is was phony. To advocate such behavior is to advocate a "5th column."

From a non religious viewpoint that would a great loss but I see what you are saying.

Another principle of Christianity is "two wrongs do not make a right." Lets assume if the kids tell the truth, they will be abused by their parents." This is just another "enabling scenario" to justify lying. The kids should tell the truth and deal with whatever are the consequences. It is sad but true, you cannot embrace Christ unless you are willing to put it all on the line.

So you suggest that the kids open themselves to emotional and physical abuse for a moral code that they don't believe in?

On a side note, to lift this discussion beyond trying to justify lying for a "good cause" lets consider this question, does the Bible ever suggest believers can lie? Yes. Not acting as individuals, but acting under the cover of government authority, like in the military, it is ok to provide "misinformation" as part of the governments role to protect its community (i.e nation) from harm from an opposing force. Rahab springs to mind.

I did not know that.

 

[DarkProphet]

I concur

Huh

I'm not lying apparently I'm just not clear. Still your hostility and your attitude toward me and the situation presented speak volumes about you are your beliefs. It is because of people like you that my friend and these kids feel that they have to live a lie. Think about that next time you with your loved ones because it might be them you are hurting with your attitude.

 

[Bro_Sam]

I'm not lying

Really?

1. "They were kicked out for Unchristian behavior."
2. "They were kicked out for being tares."
3. "They were kicked out for Unchristian behavior."
4. "They were kicked out for having a different interpretation."

You've told four different stories.

Still your hostility...

And just where have I shown you hostility?

It is because of people like you that my friend and these kids feel that they have to live a lie.

That's ironic, since I'm the one who's said all along that they need to tell the truth.

Think about that next time you with your loved ones because it might be them you are hurting with your attitude.

What? How is telling somebody that they should tell the truth about how they feel and what they believe "hurting them"?

 

[Van]

Hi Dark Prophet,


"So you suggest that the kids open themselves to emotional and physical abuse for a moral code that they don't believe in?" Did I suggest or did I say what the Bible teaches. This is an exploring Christianity forum. What does the Bible teach - "It is never right to do wrong to get a chance to do right." The ends do not justify the means. All of your "enabling scenarios" are just that, concocted stories to justify doing evil in the eyes of God. Anyone can tell himself, I had to lie because "something worse would happen if I told the truth."

 

[DarkProphet]

Really?

1. "They were kicked out for Unchristian behavior."
2. "They were kicked out for being tares."
3. "They were kicked out for Unchristian behavior."
4. "They were kicked out for having a different interpretation."

You've told four different stories.

I was talking about examples in this specific church. Tares is your description and if what I described is not a "tare" then that is my mistake but that is not a lie.

In 4 I was saying that there are interpretations of the tare parable that say Christians should not kick people out for being tares not that they were kicked out for having a different interpretation. Although now that I think about it there was a liberal college group that wasn't so much kicked out as not included.

And just where have I shown you hostility?

In your attitude and your immediate conclusion that I lie.

That's ironic, since I'm the one who's said all along that they need to tell the truth.

Way to miss the point.

What? How is telling somebody that they should tell the truth about how they feel and what they believe "hurting them"?

It's your attitude.

 

[DarkProphet]

"So you suggest that the kids open themselves to emotional and physical abuse for a moral code that they don't believe in?" Did I suggest or did I say what the Bible teaches. This is an exploring Christianity forum. What does the Bible teach - "It is never right to do wrong to get a chance to do right." The ends do not justify the means. All of your "enabling scenarios" are just that, concocted stories to justify doing evil in the eyes of God. Anyone can tell himself, I had to lie because "something worse would happen if I told the truth."

That was the implication. What I described is a real situation with real people, so what DO you suggest?

While in general I agree with the idea of honesty being the best policy it is possible to run into a scenario where something worse WOULD happen if your told the truth.

 

[Van]

Hi Dark Prophet, it takes courage to tell the truth no matter the cost. I have told you what the Bible says the kids should do. Tell the truth and deal with the consequences. The sooner the kids start telling the truth, the less consequences there will be. From a non-biblical source - oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

Additional thought, I am not giving the kids advice. I do not know them or their situation. I am applying God's word to the scenario you describe without detail. It has all the earmarks of a concocted story.

 

[DarkProphet]

Hi Dark Prophet, it takes courage to tell the truth no matter the cost. I have told you what the Bible says the kids should do. Tell the truth and deal with the consequences. The sooner the kids start telling the truth, the less consequences there will be. From a non-biblical source - oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

I see, so they should tell the truth regardless of what the consequences might be. How idealistic.

Additional thought, I am not giving the kids advice. I do not know them or their situation. I am applying God's word to the scenario you describe without detail.

But you believe in an absolutest morality do you not? Would you ever give advise that deviates from that morality?

It has all the earmarks of a concocted story.

I suppose if it that makes it easier for you not to think about it then go on believing that.

 

[98cwitr]

^^^from your own perception, I can assume that you believe that morality and moral fabric are just conceptions of human cognition? Would be right in assuming this?

In other words, you do not believe there is an absolute right and wrong?

 

[Bro_Sam]

It has all the earmarks of a concocted story.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, too. You ever notice how in his scenarios, the Christians are always the big, bad ogres just waiting to pounce on the poor atheists?

Seems a little too one sided to me.

 

[Sketcher]

He is a volunteer at church youth program, I help out from time to time too. All his friends are part of the program and, other then me, think he is still a Christian.

If that's the case, he should step down quietly.

 

[Digit]

I think you are missing the point. It's not that they are lying it's that they feel that they HAVE to lie.

No one -has- to lie, it's a false premise.

Indeed I do not feel anything good will come from their current course of action, where they choose to hide their beliefs.

 

[Digit]

I see, so they should tell the truth regardless of what the consequences might be. How idealistic.

What -are- the consequences here? They stop being a part of the program, does their disbelief in God mean they can't help out or that it's awkward for them to help - if so who is forcing them to help out? It's not idealistic, it's honest and it's what more people need to be irrespective of the situation. When you can justify anything, nothing is out of reach.

I suppose if it that makes it easier for you not to think about it then go on believing that.

I have to say that he is not alone - I only read your OP and thought it sounded like a fictional situation. If that is the case, I'm not sure why you thought you shouldn't just ask the question outright, it's not like there -aren't- answers for this. *shrugs*

 

[DarkProphet]

^^^from your own perception, I can assume that you believe that morality and moral fabric are just conceptions of human cognition? Would be right in assuming this?

Yes.

In other words, you do not believe there is an absolute right and wrong?

That would be correct.

 

[DarkProphet]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, too. You ever notice how in his scenarios, the Christians are always the big, bad ogres just waiting to pounce on the poor atheists?

This is because I only bring forth the situations that trouble me. And yes Christians are painted in a bad light in those situations but that is simply a part of reality. I've had good experiences with Christians but because I'm not a member of a church or a Christian myself those experiences are few are far between.

Seems a little too one sided to me.

You would like to believe so.

 

[DarkProphet]

What -are- the consequences here? They stop being a part of the program, does their disbelief in God mean they can't help out or that it's awkward for them to help - if so who is forcing them to help out?

For my friend the church would say that he cannot volunteer there anymore. Note that he WANTS to help because he has been part of the program for a long time now and it's a large part of his life. Many have said he should be honest and stop going as per the churches rules. It wouldn't be easy but I see where you guys are coming from and on that point I concur.

There is also the problem with my friend's family and that is more serious. He wants to see his niece and nephew and be a part of their lives and if he were to come out as not a Christian there would be a real chance that his family would shun him. I do not know if that would be the case but he fears that to be the case.

Then there is the separate problem of the kids. The parents of this church are the stereotypical over the top American Christians. I honestly have no idea how they would react to their children telling them that they don't believe but I can't imagine it would be good. What I do know is that the kids are scared to tell their parents.

It's not idealistic, it's honest and it's what more people need to be irrespective of the situation. When you can justify anything, nothing is out of reach.

I agree but know that Christians face the same problem and because of that careful thought should be put into all moral dilemmas, rather then to defaulting to an absolutest moral code.

I have to say that he is not alone - I only read your OP and thought it sounded like a fictional situation. If that is the case, I'm not sure why you thought you shouldn't just ask the question outright, it's not like there -aren't- answers for this. *shrugs*

This is not the first post where Christians have acted in a negative way that other Christians have immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was fake. I suppose you simply like the fantasy that Christians do not act this way but the rest of us have to deal with the consequences of your beliefs.

 

[Digit]

For my friend the church would say that he cannot volunteer there anymore. Note that he WANTS to help because he has been part of the program for a long time now and it's a large part of his life. Many have said he should be honest and stop going as per the churches rules. It wouldn't be easy but I see where you guys are coming from and on that point I concur.

I see no reason that he can't remain friends and in contact with the people there, but if he doesn't believe what they do and he is under some obligation to commit and participate in a manner that makes him feel uncomfortable then it seems fairly obvious he should stop and cite the honest reasons why.

I don't really see what the big problem is here?

There is also the problem with my friend's family and that is more serious. He wants to see his niece and nephew and be a part of their lives and if he were to come out as not a Christian there would be a real chance that his family would shun him. I do not know if that would be the case but he fears that to be the case.

Well only he can deal with his family really, and different people will act in different ways. It will be a blow for them because they will likely feel like they have failed. But that is no reason to continue to lie - if they found out through another means it will only be worse. Honesty is the best course.

Then there is the separate problem of the kids. The parents of this church are the stereotypical over the top American Christians. I honestly have no idea how they would react to their children telling them that they don't believe but I can't imagine it would be good. What I do know is that the kids are scared to tell their parents.

Kids will always be scared of telling their parents things they feel their parents will disapprove of.

I agree but know that Christians face the same problem and because of that careful thought should be put into all moral dilemmas, rather then to defaulting to an absolutest moral code.

Ultimately you have your answer already as do the others, you know it's wrong, or you wouldn't be here. Only in the most far-fetched and speculative scenarios is lying ever the right choice - and even then it's solely subjective.

This is not the first post where Christians have acted in a negative way that other Christians have immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was fake. I suppose you simply like the fantasy that Christians do not act this way but the rest of us have to deal with the consequences of your beliefs.

Which other post(s) are there?

Christians acting in a negative way has nothing to do with it for me, it's more that it just seems like a fabricated story. Like: "A friend of a friend who is in this situation and - " "Wait, you are talking about yourself right?" "NO, it's my friend... " etc. It ultimately has no bearing on the answers given whatsoever, neither does the fact that Christians are involved.

What you are asking is - 'is it ok to lie if...' - and no, it isn't. Which is why I said, if you can justify anything, nothing is out of reach as to what is good and ok under any given set of justified circumstances.