Yekcidmij

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Luke 3:23 is where Miriam's(Mary's) lineage is revealed. Mary's Father's name was Heli.

The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,
This means when called the son of Joseph- it is supposed by all. Then says son of Heli, this means though he is presumed the son of Joseph by all, he is the son of Heli, meaning lineage. This therefore, is how He is the Son of David and seed of Jacob and it is through His Mother that he is by flesh. This will give greater understanding of Jacob's ladder. For it is in Mary that the promise to Abraham is fulfilled. This is clear in scripture:

It seems you're saying Jesus was technically the son of Heli, which doesn't seem to make sense since that would make him his mother's brother. Also, if this is intended to be Mary's genealogy, why doesn't it mention her?

THEREFORE BY FLESH AND ADOPTION HE IS A DESCENDANT of King David, but by flesh through MARY.

It seems in both cases he would be a son by adoption. In one case, he's adopted as Joseph's son, but in the other case, he's Heli's son, but it can't be that he's Heli's literal son.

Additionally, was lineage and inheritance determined by father or mother?
 
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Victory123

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It seems you're saying Jesus was technically the son of Heli, which doesn't seem to make sense since that would make him his mother's brother. Also, if this is intended to be Mary's genealogy, why doesn't it mention her?



It seems in both cases he would be a son by adoption. In one case, he's adopted as Joseph's son, but in the other case, he's Heli's son, but it can't be that he's Heli's literal son.

Additionally, was lineage and inheritance determined by father or mother?

MEANING LINEAGE, READ. Like SON OF DAVID. Not in a literal sense....... as in a lineage sense.
 
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Victory123

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MEANING LINEAGE, READ. Like SON OF DAVID. Not in a literal sense....... as in a lineage sense.
Saint Joachim was the husband of Saint Anne and the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus, according to the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions. The story of Joachim and Anne first appears in the apocryphal Gospel of James. Joachim and Anne are not mentioned in the Bible. It has been a widely held belief that Mary's father's name is "Joachim" and not because of what is said in the bible but what is says in the Apocryphal of St. James, this is a Deuterocanonical book. This is his name. But if you know about names, sometimes a nickname is used and this is widely shown throughout scripture. Joachim and Heli mean the same thing and therefore are the same name. Joachim="Jehovah exalt" and Heli= "ascending, climbing up". Many biblical text posses hidden riddles. To exalt is an ascending up.

Proverbs1:5-7The Beginning of Knowledge

…5A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel, 6To understand a proverb and a figure, The words of the wise and their riddles. 7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.…
1 Corinthians 2:6-8 Spiritual Wisdom
6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.…

Further Heli: is Greek it comes from Cheli and means the same thing as Joachim. Daniel 1:3-5 Michael's Deliverance and the End Times
…3"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." 5Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river.…

THE GOSPEL OF LUKE WAS WRITTEN IN GREEK:
In contrast to either Mark or Matthew, Luke's gospel is clearly written more for a gentile audience. Luke is traditionally thought of as one of Paul's traveling companions and it's certainly the case that the author of Luke was from those Greek cities in which Paul had worked. He wrote Mary's father's name in Greek, because he wrote his gospel in Greek when in Greece. When translated to English this was not conveyed.

Michael's deliverance Prayer:
Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host –
by the Divine Power of God –
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Michael's Deliverance and the End Times
1"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.…
It is interesting this.....about Michael in Daniel chp.12. And Michael is in Rev.12. And the sign of the Virgin has been seen and it's conclusion was over Israel. We are truly living in a remarkable time. Like the Apostles -we are living prophecy in real time! That is for another thread.
 
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Yekcidmij

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MEANING LINEAGE, READ. Like SON OF DAVID. Not in a literal sense....... as in a lineage sense.

Oh, I thought this was a discussion - looks like I may have been wrong. LOVE THE CAPS LOCK THOUGH!!!

Saint Joachim was the husband of Saint Anne and the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus, according to the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions. The story of Joachim and Anne first appears in the apocryphal Gospel of James. Joachim and Anne are not mentioned in the Bible.

I'm not sure you're making your case any easier. Now you have to support the apocryphal Gospel of James as historically reliable - or at least the fact that Joachim was Mary's father as being historically reliable. I'm not sure how you would do that. Do you at least have another source besides the Gospel of James?

It has been a widely held belief that Mary's father's name is "Joachim" and not because of what is said in the bible but what is says in the Apocryphal of St. James, this is a Deuterocanonical book.

I wonder what exactly you mean by "widely held." In any case, I was interested in reasons, not how many people hold a belief.

But if you know about names, sometimes a nickname is used and this is widely shown throughout scripture.

This seems largely irrelevant.

Joachim and Heli mean the same thing and therefore are the same name.

Based on what? It looks to me like "Heli" comes from "Eli," which is never translated as "Joachim" in the LXX.

Joachim="Jehovah exalt" and Heli= "ascending, climbing up". Many biblical text posses hidden riddles. To exalt is an ascending up.

Looks like a bit of a stretch. Essentially you just said they don't in fact mean the same thing.

…5A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel, 6To understand a proverb and a figure, The words of the wise and their riddles. 7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.…
1 Corinthians 2:6-8 Spiritual Wisdom
6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.…

Not sure how this is relevant.

Further Heli: is Greek

Seems more likely to come from the Hebrew "Eli."

it comes from Cheli and means the same thing as Joachim

Based on what?

. Daniel 1:3-5 Michael's Deliverance and the End Times
…3"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." 5Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river.…

Why is this relevant?

THE GOSPEL OF LUKE WAS WRITTEN IN GREEK:

They're all written in Greek. This isn't an argument for much.

In contrast to either Mark or Matthew, Luke's gospel is clearly written more for a gentile audience.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Luke's audience seems to be "Theophilus" which isn't automatically indicative of a gentile audience. We know of a "Theophilus ben Ananus" who was high priest in Jerusalem from about 37-41. Luke also seems to emphasize a lot of things that may have been irrelevant to a gentile audience, but relevant to a Jewish one (eg, Jesus' circumcision, connections with the Hebrew Bible, etc..). So I'm not sure it's a good idea to use Luke's audience as supporting evidence of an argument.

Lukeis traditionally thought of as one of Paul's traveling companions and it's certainly the case that the author of Luke was from those Greek cities in which Paul had worked.

I'll grant that Luke was Paul's companion since they all seem to say as much. But we don't know where Luke was from. We don't know that he was from a Greek city. He could have been a Hellenized Jew for all we know. Given his familiarity with the Hebrew bible, it doesn't seem a given that he was a Greek guy from a Greek city.

He wrote Mary's father's name in Greek, because he wrote his gospel in Greek when in Greece.

Everyone wrote in Greek. I'm not sure this is an argument, and I'm not sure how you know where he wrote his gospel.


It seems your arguments are pretty weak. I would just leave it as a speculative possibility that Luke's genealogy is Mary's. It's not out of the question, but there really seems to be no way to reliably establish that to be the case. There are too many questions about the genealogies that can't be answered.
 
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Victory123

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Oh, I thought this was a discussion - looks like I may have been wrong. LOVE THE CAPS LOCK THOUGH!!!



I'm not sure you're making your case any easier. Now you have to support the apocryphal Gospel of James as historically reliable - or at least the fact that Joachim was Mary's father as being historically reliable. I'm not sure how you would do that. Do you at least have another source besides the Gospel of James?



I wonder what exactly you mean by "widely held." In any case, I was interested in reasons, not how many people hold a belief.



This seems largely irrelevant.



Based on what? It looks to me like "Heli" comes from "Eli," which is never translated as "Joachim" in the LXX.



Looks like a bit of a stretch. Essentially you just said they don't in fact mean the same thing.



Not sure how this is relevant.



Seems more likely to come from the Hebrew "Eli."



Based on what?



Why is this relevant?



They're all written in Greek. This isn't an argument for much.



Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Luke's audience seems to be "Theophilus" which isn't automatically indicative of a gentile audience. We know of a "Theophilus ben Ananus" who was high priest in Jerusalem from about 37-41. Luke also seems to emphasize a lot of things that may have been irrelevant to a gentile audience, but relevant to a Jewish one (eg, Jesus' circumcision, connections with the Hebrew Bible, etc..). So I'm not sure it's a good idea to use Luke's audience as supporting evidence of an argument.



I'll grant that Luke was Paul's companion since they all seem to say as much. But we don't know where Luke was from. We don't know that he was from a Greek city. He could have been a Hellenized Jew for all we know. Given his familiarity with the Hebrew bible, it doesn't seem a given that he was a Greek guy from a Greek city.



Everyone wrote in Greek. I'm not sure this is an argument, and I'm not sure how you know where he wrote his gospel.


It seems your arguments are pretty weak. I would just leave it as a speculative possibility that Luke's genealogy is Mary's. It's not out of the question, but there really seems to be no way to reliably establish that to be the case. There are too many questions about the genealogies that can't be answered.
Some people use CAPS to emphasis a point, not yell. Say what you want the fact that the names are the same can not be overlooked. And the only one who is unsure of anything is you. I am quite sure of where he wrote the gospel. And I am quite sure of what I wrote. Leave it to your mind set to deny ,and twist what you can not dispute. Perhaps you should do your own research and get back to me . If your purpose is to TRY and discredit what I shared, I would say the historical and biblical facts I use to support my claims way heavily in my favor.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Say what you want the fact that the names are the same can not be overlooked. And the only one who is unsure of anything is you. I am quite sure of where he wrote the gospel. And I am quite sure of what I wrote. Leave it to your mind set to deny ,and twist what you can not dispute. Perhaps you should do your own research and get back to me . If your purpose is to TRY and discredit what I shared, I would say the historical and biblical facts I use to support my claims way heavily in my favor.

In other words, you won't be addressing the things I mentioned.

Ok. Fine by me.
 
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prodromos

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There is another Christian tradition that the two genealogies of Jesus are the result of a Leverite marriage on his paternal side.

Genealogy of Jesus - Wikipedia
Just wanted to point out an error in the Wikipedia article. It states that St John of Damascus suggested that Luke's genealogy is that of Mary. This is not true. St John of Damascus gives the same understanding as Sextus Julius Africanus that both genealogies are of Joseph due to his fathers being brothers with the same mother but of different fathers, she having remarried after the death of her first husband. The first brother died before producing an heir, so the other brother raised up seed for him with his widow. The child born as a result was Joseph.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I was just reading through the 1st chapter of Matthew and all the begats and I read something I never paid attention to before. Joseph, Mary's husband is a descendant of King David not Mary. So I was trying to find what Lineage Mary is from. I can't find it, even when I did a web search. So who is Mary a descendant of?

Scripture doesn't tell us, but Tradition names Mary's parents as Joachim and Hannah (known usually as Sts. Joachim and Anne in English), and both were of the line of David.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ron Gurley

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Joseph was in the legal line of Jesus.
Mary was in the blood line of Jesus.

Just that simple.

Jesus had all the credentials necessary to be the Divine Messiah. Prophecies fulfilled.
 
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AFrazier

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I was just reading through the 1st chapter of Matthew and all the begats and I read something I never paid attention to before. Joseph, Mary's husband is a descendant of King David not Mary. So I was trying to find what Lineage Mary is from. I can't find it, even when I did a web search. So who is Mary a descendant of?
Mary was Elisabeth's cousin (Luke 1:36). Elisabeth was of the daughters of Aaron (Luke 1:5), who was a Levite (Exodus 4:14), and was married to a priest (Luke 1:5), who by default had to be a Levite (Numbers 1:50). Levitical priests were required to marry women from the tribe of Levi (Leviticus 21:14, Numbers 36:7-9). That makes Elisabeth a Levite, and Mary, her cousin, also a Levite, because Mary's aunt or uncle would have to be brother or sister to a Levite relative to a Levitical marriage.

David, on the other hand, is of the line of Judah (Matthew 1:3, Matthew 1:6).

Neither genealogy (Matthew or Luke) has anything to do with Mary.

The variances between the two, in my opinion, are likely natural versus legal, or something of that nature. In Matthew's genealogy (Matthew 1:12), for example, he lists Salathiel (Shealtiel) as the father of Zorobabel. However, in 1 Chronicles 3:17-19, Pedaiah, son of Jeconiah, is father to Zorobabel, not Salathiel, demonstrating the legal rearing of a son in the name of a brother (Deuteronomy 25:5-6). You can see, also, a simple variance with Joseph's line. In Luke, he is Joseph, son of Heli, son of Mathatt (Luke 3:23-24), but in Matthew, he's Joseph, son of Jacob, son of Matthan (Matthew 1:15-16) (Mathatt and Matthan are likely the same name). The difference between Heli and Jacob may be another instance of a brother dying without a son. In this case, with Matthew's genealogy being the legal one, Jacob would be the brother who died, and Heli the one who fathered a child in Jacob's name.

Those are my thoughts on the subject. I've only spent a short time studying this problem, but I'm convinced that there is most likely a natural versus legalistic difference.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Mary was Elisabeth's cousin (Luke 1:36). Elisabeth was of the daughters of Aaron (Luke 1:5), who was a Levite (Exodus 4:14), and was married to a priest (Luke 1:5), who by default had to be a Levite (Numbers 1:50). Levitical priests were required to marry women from the tribe of Levi (Leviticus 21:14, Numbers 36:7-9). That makes Elisabeth a Levite, and Mary, her cousin, also a Levite, because Mary's aunt or uncle would have to be brother or sister to a Levite relative to a Levitical marriage.

David, on the other hand, is of the line of Judah (Matthew 1:3, Matthew 1:6).

Neither genealogy (Matthew or Luke) has anything to do with Mary.

The variances between the two, in my opinion, are likely natural versus legal, or something of that nature. In Matthew's genealogy (Matthew 1:12), for example, he lists Salathiel (Shealtiel) as the father of Zorobabel. However, in 1 Chronicles 3:17-19, Pedaiah, son of Jeconiah, is father to Zorobabel, not Salathiel, demonstrating the legal rearing of a son in the name of a brother (Deuteronomy 25:5-6). You can see, also, a simple variance with Joseph's line. In Luke, he is Joseph, son of Heli, son of Mathatt (Luke 3:23-24), but in Matthew, he's Joseph, son of Jacob, son of Matthan (Matthew 1:15-16) (Mathatt and Matthan are likely the same name). The difference between Heli and Jacob may be another instance of a brother dying without a son. In this case, with Matthew's genealogy being the legal one, Jacob would be the brother who died, and Heli the one who fathered a child in Jacob's name.

Those are my thoughts on the subject. I've only spent a short time studying this problem, but I'm convinced that there is most likely a natural versus legalistic difference.
Wow, I am humbled and amazed at your thorough search through scripture of this topic. Also, what a wonderful demonstration of the legal rights through adoption.....which brings us to understand our rightful place as an heir of the throne by adoption through Jesus! Awesome study and Thank you!
 
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buzuxi02

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Mary was Elisabeth's cousin (Luke 1:36). Elisabeth was of the daughters of Aaron (Luke 1:5), who was a Levite (Exodus 4:14), and was married to a priest (Luke 1:5), who by default had to be a Levite (Numbers 1:50). Levitical priests were required to marry women from the tribe of Levi (Leviticus 21:14, Numbers 36:7-9). That makes Elisabeth a Levite, and Mary, her cousin, also a Levite, because Mary's aunt or uncle would have to be brother or sister .

Just one clarification the original koine Greek does not say cousin. It says kinswoman(Luke 1:36- συγγενείς ). Kin is used broadly in the NT, while Lk probably is implying a [blood] relative, cousin is mere speculation and unlikely as Elizabeth is said to be old in age, more likely an aunt or even a very close family acquaintance that consider each other like family .
 
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AFrazier

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Just one clarification the original koine Greek does not say cousin. It says kinswoman(Luke 1:36- συγγενείς ). Kin is used broadly in the NT, while Lk probably is implying a [blood] relative, cousin is mere speculation and unlikely as Elizabeth is said to be old in age, more likely an aunt or even a very close family acquaintance that consider each other like family .
Kin is still a relative. With the restrictions on who could marry whom, all the marriages, however intertwined, would still be within the tribe of Levi. Ergo, even if Mary was kin to Elisabeth by marriage rather than blood, the one who was of Levi by blood had to marry someone who was of Levi by blood.

Although, it is worth noting, objectively speaking, that Joseph was of the line of Judah, and he married Mary. So I guess that throws something of a monkey wrench in the whole line of reasoning. If Mary was a Levite and had to marry a Levite, then she shouldn't have been able to marry Joseph of Judah.

So there's that.

And my explanation also ignores that Luke sticks to the legal genealogy for Salathiel, and strays from Matthew's account when Luke gets to Nathan, if I recall (I don't have a Bible handy at the moment), so that Joseph comes down a different line altogether in Luke versus Matthew.

As I said, I've only studied this problem briefly, as a curiosity. My solution isn't a definitive one. It's just good food for thought.

The most important point that I'm really trying to make is that both genealogies belong to Joseph. Neither is Mary's. That much should be self-evident by the fact that Joseph is the end point of both.
 
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prodromos

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The most important point that I'm really trying to make is that both genealogies belong to Joseph. Neither is Mary's. That much should be self-evident by the fact that Joseph is the end point of both.
Each of Joseph's grandfathers were both married to the same woman, the second after she had been widowed by the first. Thus Joseph's fathers were uterine brothers, even though they each had different fathers. One of them married but died before producing an heir, so his brother raised up seed with his brother's widow in accordance with the law. Hence Joseph has two fathers, one according to the flesh and the other according to the law.
 
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Bladerunner

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I was just reading through the 1st chapter of Matthew and all the begats and I read something I never paid attention to before. Joseph, Mary's husband is a descendant of King David not Mary. So I was trying to find what Lineage Mary is from. I can't find it, even when I did a web search. So who is Mary a descendant of?

Hello Heart2Soul.... You will find in
Matthew 1:1-17....traces Jesus' geneology as the 'Lion of the Tribe of Judah'. Thus, the geneology of Abraham to David then through Solomon and finally to Joseph... Keep in mind there was a Blood curse on Jehoiachin (Jeconiah).
(Jer 22:30)

Now go to Luke who present Jesus as the "son of Man" thus the geneology of ADAM through David then through the second surviving son of Bathsheba, Nathan to Heli-the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus. (Luke 3:23-38)

Blade
 
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Yekcidmij

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Hello Heart2Soul.... You will find in
Matthew 1:1-17....traces Jesus' geneology as the 'Lion of the Tribe of Judah'. Thus, the geneology of Abraham to David then through Solomon and finally to Joseph... Keep in mind there was a Blood curse on Jehoiachin (Jeconiah).
(Jer 22:30)

I disagree that there was a "blood curse" on Jeconiah.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Then I guess you are denying the WORD of GOD!

Blade

I mean, obviously, that has to be the reason. It couldn't possibly be anything else. [/sarcasm]
 
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Bladerunner

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I mean, obviously, that has to be the reason. It couldn't possibly be anything else. [/sarcasm]

My apologizes for my abrupt post.

Here let me show you. In Jeremiah 22:30..
"Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."

Jeconiah was the "This man" and it was a Blood curse. This prevented the royal Line of David from fathering the seed for Jesus. In Genesis 3:15. God tells us about HER Seed? Women do not have seed? But this was a virgin birth with the seed of GOD!


Blade




 
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Yekcidmij

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My apologizes for my abrupt post.

Here let me show you. In Jeremiah 22:30..
"Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."

Jeconiah was the "This man" and it was a Blood curse. This prevented the royal Line of David from fathering the seed for Jesus. In Genesis 3:15. God tells us about HER Seed? Women do not have seed? But this was a virgin birth with the seed of GOD!


Blade

Of course, I'm aware of what the blood curse is and where people get the idea from. However, I see no reason to extend that particular curse beyond Jeconiah's immediate children. And indeed, it's Jeconiah's sons who are carried off into exile never to sit on the throne. However, after the exile, it appears to me that Zechariah and Haggai had no problem with thinking Zerubbabel could be messiah/king. So it makes me think that Jeremiah's saying was only about Jeconiah's sons. It would also seem that Matthew is unaware of such a curse or he surely wouldn't have used that line as Jesus' lineage. So, I just disagree that there is such a thing as a blood curse on all of Jeconiah's descendants throughout all of time - I don't think it's supportable by the text and it doesn't seem that Zechariah, Haggai or Matthew believed in such a thing either.
 
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