Limited atonement?

[Godzchild]

Look it all sounds really good and everything but I have a hard time believing that a God who is no respecter of persons would save some and not others.

How does this doctrive fit in with the parable of the wedding feast? Many are called and few are chosen? Why were they not chosen? They were called alright but they were not chosen. Why? What didn't they do?

It seems to me that God is very much looking at what 'we' do. You say that wouldn't make him sovreign but I think it does. Being a God that can do what he pleases why can't he choose to elect those who he foreknew would accept him?

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

That takes grace out of the equation. Look up grace in the dictionary... any dictionary. It will say that grace is undeserved merit. If God were to look through time and see who chose Him, then responded by choosing that person, the choice would be based on our actions. Hence, it would be deserved.

God does require that we do things. He requires that we love Him with all of our heart and that we obey His commandments perfectly. He requires many more things that we just cannot do. We have all failed to meet His righteous standard. This realization scared the living daylights out of me until I realized that the only place I could turn was to Christ, who lived the sinless life in my place, died in my place, and then led the way for us all as He rose again.

The verses that place the bar higher than we can jump are there to show that we cannot do this without God. If they just said to "ask Jesus into your heart" and that was it, it wouldn't be amazing and it wouldn't be grace. The gospel is not that God looked across time and said "Thy will be done" to us. That concept is a blasphemy that tries to affirm justification even as it denies sanctification.

Remember that many will say on the last day, "Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name and didn't we this and didn't we that?" (my own paraphrase) In response, they will be sent away. Why is this? Is it because these people tried to earn the favor of God rather than look to His grace? The power behind the Christian is not the good works, but the Father who is glorified by them.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[Godzchild]

I understand that it's not based on our works but Jesus did mention a work and that was 'belief'. I believe that's the only thing that merits grace is if we 'believe' in whom he sent. Jesus and him crucified.

Why can't God look ahead and see who were going to believe and who was not? I believe in this election thing to a certain extent, I believe I was elected and that is why he keeps me...however, it was all based on whether I was going to heed the call or not. If not then he would never have chosen me, if so then he does. All foreseen.

Again, I point towards the parable of the wedding feast where many were called but only few chosen based on what they did. Which was? Getting dressed for the wedding feast. Well in my mind, putting on Christ as the spotless garment is done at belief...and that's the only work. If I did not put on this believe (then had the spotless garment of christ put on me) then I would never have been chosen. But you say it's not based on anything we do? But that's not what Jesus says though...belief is the only thing.

 

[Godzchild]

And for the record, I'm not arguing I'm just trying to understand. I really WANT to believe you...I really do. And I do believe it to a certain extent but then it all goes pear shaped and you lose me at the point where God is suddenly a respecter of persons.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Fair enough. Belief is our work. If you can agree that all of our work is based on the work of Christ, can we say that we are enabled to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that we may be saved only if He empowers us to do so? There was a time when you didn't believe. Then you began to accept the truth of the Bible. You believed in a set of facts. This does not mean that you were saved, though. Even the devil believes in the facts. Does believe mean that you are willing to drop everything else and rely solely on Christ for your salvation, even if your very belief (active belief, faith that works) is a gift from God?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Jon_]

And for the record, I'm not arguing I'm just trying to understand. I really WANT to believe you...I really do. And I do believe it to a certain extent but then it all goes pear shaped and you lose me at the point where God is suddenly a respecter of persons.

Actually, it's just the opposite, sister. God is no respecter of persons. What respect does the Most High have for his creatures? We are nothing but worms (Job 25:6) and unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10). God does not respect us at all, not should he! But he does love us. And he loves us so much that he sent his Son Jesus Christ to die, not that salvation should be possible, but that salvation should be ensured for those whom he was chosen.

Now that's true love.

The Arminian god threw his son in the water to drown, so that we might climb out of the pool on his back. The Calvinist God sent his Son to jump in and really save us. The amazing thing is that his Son died in the process of saving us. His death didn't make it possible for us to be saved. He died in saving us and saved us in dying. What an amazing, loving, gracious, and merciful God we serve.

(Of course, this analogy is not perfect, but I think it pretty well illustrates God's incredible love.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JamesMichael]

Actually, it's just the opposite, sister. God is no respecter of persons. What respect does the Most High have for his creatures? We are nothing but worms (Job 25:6) and unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10). God does not respect us at all, not should he! But he does love us. And he loves us so much that he sent his Son Jesus Christ to die, not that salvation should be possible, but that salvation should be ensured for those whom he was chosen.

Now that's true love.

The Arminian god threw his son in the water to drown, so that we might climb out of the pool on his back. The Calvinist God sent his Son to jump in and really save us. The amazing thing is that his Son died in the process of saving us. His death didn't make it possible for us to be saved. He died in saving us and saved us in dying. What an amazing, loving, gracious, and merciful God we serve.

(Of course, this analogy is not perfect, but I think it pretty well illustrates God's incredible love.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

How does one come to the true knowledge, if it is possible at all, that God has truly chosen them alone to be redeemed?

There must be some Biblical manner in which one comes to that saving knowledege.

 

[Godzchild]

Fair enough. Belief is our work. If you can agree that all of our work is based on the work of Christ, can we say that we are enabled to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that we may be saved only if He empowers us to do so? There was a time when you didn't believe. Then you began to accept the truth of the Bible. You believed in a set of facts. This does not mean that you were saved, though. Even the devil believes in the facts. Does believe mean that you are willing to drop everything else and rely solely on Christ for your salvation, even if your very belief (active belief, faith that works) is a gift from God?

I understand that God you believe that God empowers us to believe but we can still decide not to though. I chose to believe...that was my choice. And for the record my belief is not based on facts, it's based on something deep inside. I don't know. The 'facts' that I was taught by men were false all my life but that's not why I believe....I believe because I chose too and I know Jesus now.

Actually, it's just the opposite, sister. God is no respecter of persons.

I know that! But I feel that your doctrine painst him into someone who is.

What respect does the Most High have for his creatures? We are nothing but worms (Job 25:6) and unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10). God does not respect us at all, not should he! But he does love us. And he loves us so much that he sent his Son Jesus Christ to die, not that salvation should be possible, but that salvation should be ensured for those whom he was chosen.

But again, I can't get passed the REASON we were chosen. I know I was chosen but I believe it was based on the fact that God forsaw my belief in his Son.

The Arminian god threw his son in the water to drown, so that we might climb out of the pool on his back. The Calvinist God sent his Son to jump in and really save us. The amazing thing is that his Son died in the process of saving us. His death didn't make it possible for us to be saved. He died in saving us and saved us in dying. What an amazing, loving, gracious, and merciful God we serve.

(Of course, this analogy is not perfect, but I think it pretty well illustrates God's incredible love.)

I have no doubt in God's love. I just doubt that this loving God can pick and choose who he wants despite whether or not we were going to believe in the one he sent or not.

 

[Jon_]

I know that! But I feel that your doctrine painst him into someone who is.

Okay, why do you think this is so? I am having trouble understanding how you came to that conclusion.

But again, I can't get passed the REASON we were chosen. I know I was chosen but I believe it was based on the fact that God forsaw my belief in his Son.

Calvinism teaches that we are chosen according to divine fiat. That means that God has chosen us because he wanted to, not because of anything we did. Election is God's prerogative and he choses those that he wants to for no other reason than he is sovereign and he can choose. The Scriptures do not reveal how or why God choses those he choses. It is not on the basis of foreseen faith because that is impossible. The doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that no man has faith except that which God gives him. Therefore, election (God's choice) must precede faith.

I have no doubt in God's love. I just doubt that this loving God can pick and choose who he wants despite whether or not we were going to believe in the one he sent or not.

That's just the thing, though. God choses those that he will give faith to. That is what it means to be chosen by God. It means that he has given you faith in his Son Jesus Christ. The elect are those that God has chosen to believe and all those that he chooses to believe will believe. So God doesn't just randomly pick people hoping they will have faith. Nor does he pick those that he foresees will have faith (because there is no faith to foresee because no men naturally have faith). Instead, God picks those that will have faith.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

How does one come to the true knowledge, if it is possible at all, that God has truly chosen them alone to be redeemed?

There must be some Biblical manner in which one comes to that saving knowledege.

Through the faithful and dutiful study of the Scripture and the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

The Scripture itself is an objective revelation. What is true in the Scriptures is true for everyone. Now, whether or not men accept that is another story. That comes down to subjective revelation, which is the work of the Holy Spirit in the man affirming the objective truth of the Bible. In order for one to believe what the Bible says is true, he must have the subjective revelation of the Holy Spirit. In order for the Holy Spirit to subjectively reveal this truth, the man must be studying the objective revelation.

That is why I exort you to faithfully study the Scriptures as often as possible. And pray that the Lord will open your eyes and reveal his truth to you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JamesMichael]

Through the faithful and dutiful study of the Scripture and the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

The Scripture itself is an objective revelation. What is true in the Scriptures is true for everyone. Now, whether or not men accept that is another story. That comes down to subjective revelation, which is the work of the Holy Spirit in the man affirming the objective truth of the Bible. In order for one to believe what the Bible says is true, he must have the subjective revelation of the Holy Spirit. In order for the Holy Spirit to subjectively reveal this truth, the man must be studying the objective revelation.

That is why I exort you to faithfully study the Scriptures as often as possible. And pray that the Lord will open your eyes and reveal his truth to you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

You still haven't given sound Biblical evidence to show exactly How one becomes a Christian.

What Must the unsaved (Non-Elect) do, to become saved (elect)?

What specific Biblical standard is required, according to your beliefs, to be saved, or to be found among the number known as Gods elect?

I mean absolutely no offense in asking those questions, I just do not understand how you know that you know that you are truly saved.

To be honest, I don't believe I would want to gamble on what I feel are such obviously uncertain odds when it comes to where I will eventually spend eternity, one place is way too hot for taking that kind of a foolish chance.

 

[Godzchild]

Okay, why do you think this is so? I am having trouble understanding how you came to that conclusion.

To be honest, I don't actually know

Calvinism teaches that we are chosen according to divine fiat. That means that God has chosen us because he wanted to, not because of anything we did. Election is God's prerogative and he choses those that he wants to for no other reason than he is sovereign and he can choose. The Scriptures do not reveal how or why God choses those he choses. It is not on the basis of foreseen faith because that is impossible. The doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that no man has faith except that which God gives him. Therefore, election (God's choice) must precede faith.

Can't you choose to not be faithful? Sounds to me like, what you're saying is the God leads the horse to the water then makes him drink it too. What if the horse doesn't want to drink?

That's just the thing, though. God choses those that he will give faith to. That is what it means to be chosen by God. It means that he has given you faith in his Son Jesus Christ. The elect are those that God has chosen to believe and all those that he chooses to believe will believe. So God doesn't just randomly pick people hoping they will have faith. Nor does he pick those that he foresees will have faith (because there is no faith to foresee because no men naturally have faith). Instead, God picks those that will have faith.

Then why would one need to be told to 'believe' in Jesus, when it's something that they will naturally do? Why are many called but few chosen? Why are they called and why are not then chosen? I'm referring back to the wedding feast again now

[/QUOTE]

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

How does the unsaved become saved?

Mark 10:26-27
And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

​

God doesn't change His list of who is elect and who is not. One who is not elect will remain in the natural fallen state and have no desire to approach God for their salvation. God is the one who places this desire into the hearts of those He has chosen. Ultimately, we all end up in the place we have chosen! C.S. Lewis went so far as to say that we all end up in the place that we want to be at, and that the reprobate would not want to be in Heaven even if offered a glimpse of it. What's the Biblical standard?

Matthew 13:44
The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

​

The Kingdom of heaven is the promise of a life with Christ. It is a life that is eternal. It is glorious! There is no comparison to those things we trusted for our joy. They are worthless. The treasure is one that will never cease to amaze and delight us, however. I must ask you this, though. Have you seen this treasure? Have you inspected it and seen that the value of the treasure outweighs those sinful things that you have clung to so desperately? Have you seen it? Is it worth your while to abandon the world that you may claim this treasure?

But first, have you seen the treasure?


And who ever said that God could lead us to water but not make us drink?

Luke 22:41-42
And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed, saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”
​

If the will of the Father was good enough for Christ, is it also good enough for you?

 

[Jon_]

To be honest, I don't actually know

Oh. Um, would it be reasonable for me to ask you to trust me in saying that it does not?

Can't you choose to not be faithful? Sounds to me like, what you're saying is the God leads the horse to the water then makes him drink it too. What if the horse doesn't want to drink?

God makes them want to drink (as the deer panteth for the water, so our soul longeth after him).

Then why would one need to be told to 'believe' in Jesus, when it's something that they will naturally do? Why are many called but few chosen? Why are they called and why are not then chosen? I'm referring back to the wedding feast again now

There is a two part explanation for this.

In the first, God commands that all men everywhere repent on the believe in Jesus Christ. God is a jealous God and he has made Jesus the sole Savior for all of mankind. He does not want anyone attempting to achieve salvation by any other means but his Son. He requires that we seek him out because he has created us to worship him. That is our purpose. Those who do not believe in his Son refuse to do so. They live in sin. The answer to the second part is that we do not know why God does not choose all that are called except that it is his sovereign will.

This is the most difficult point of Calvinism for people to accept. I refuse to try to hide it from you or deceive you of its logical conclusion. The simple fact is that God chooses both those that will be saved by faith in Christ and those that will be damned through disbelief. We call this "double predestination." Because God is a sovereign God and is in control of all things, he is in control of the destiny of those that go to heaven and those that go to hell. He is even glorified by their destruction.

(Prov. 16:4 AV) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

(Rev. 16:9 AV) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. (emphasis added)
​

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[BBAS 64]

Look it all sounds really good and everything but I have a hard time believing that a God who is no respecter of persons would save some and not others.

How does this doctrive fit in with the parable of the wedding feast? Many are called and few are chosen? Why were they not chosen? They were called alright but they were not chosen. Why? What didn't they do?

It seems to me that God is very much looking at what 'we' do. You say that wouldn't make him sovreign but I think it does. Being a God that can do what he pleases why can't he choose to elect those who he foreknew would accept him?

Good Day, Godzchild

The wedding feast is a classic historical parable that is clear in it's teaching. The called are all the people of the kingdom, the chosen are the ones that the wedding garment were provided by the hand of the king. The chosen did nothing, the king provided the garments as to given hounor to the prince.

The "unchoosen" are not given garments from the hand of the king.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Scholar in training]

Christ's atonement is not a gift offered, it is an effectual act of redemption. It is not Christ's atonement that is offered through the Gospel, it is salvation through that atonement.

I will admit that I misspoke, in some manner, by saying that. You and I, however, undoubtedly have different definitions for "atonement" and "salvation".

Men may lay the accusation that Calvinism is heretical, but this only further increases their error as they add the sin of lying to their damning heresy.

Damning heresy? Do you mean that literally?

 

[Jon_]

I will admit that I misspoke, in some manner, by saying that. You and I, however, undoubtedly have different definitions for "atonement" and "salvation".

I can claim naught but the biblical definition.

Damning heresy? Do you mean that literally?

Damnable would be a better word.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Scholar in training]

I can claim naught but the biblical definition.

As defined by Augustine et al.

Damnable would be a better word.

As you like.

 

[Elect]

I will admit that I misspoke, in some manner, by saying that. You and I, however, undoubtedly have different definitions for "atonement" and "salvation".

Does the Atonement of Christ make man savable or does actually save those that it was intended for?

 

[Imblessed]

Does the Atonement of Christ make man savable or does actually save those that it was intended for?

exactly

I say the atonement actually saves those it was meant to save.



I just don't get what the big fuss is about limited atonement. Seriously folks, stop, step back and think logically for a minute. What did Christ die for? He died to make we who are saved holy and blameless. To ATONE for our sins....
Did he atone for the sins of those who are not saved? If he did, then believe me, ALL would be saved. But they are not. If God knows everything, and sees everything, then He certainly knows who's sins Christ died for, and it AIN'T the reprobate! Why should Christ have had to die for the people that God KNOWS is not going to accept it???????


Ok, this is what really gets me. Those who say that God is mean because he only saves a certain amount of people per Limited Atonement and Predestination. "How cruel is it that God made people with never the intention of ever saving them, knowing that they never have a chance." says the Arminian. Yet look at their view. God looks down time, sees who will call on Him, chooses them because he 'sees' that they will pick Him, AND YET! Still allows those who He SEES will never choose Him to live!!!

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?????

I just can't figure out what the big fuss is!