Limited atonement?

pro_odeh

-=Disciple of Jesus Christ=-
Nov 18, 2004
9,514
2,295
✟27,458.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I have looked into calvinism lately, but I still have some problems making it fit with what the Bible teaches, that God is just, all good and so on. So I was wondering what in the Bible supports this idea?
And does not verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " contradict it?

God bless!!
 

Jon_

Senior Veteran
Jan 30, 2005
2,998
91
42
California
✟18,616.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Well, since the topic of this thread is limited atonement, I won't address the issue of Calvinism portraying God as unjust, but I will mention that it only appears to be that way from a human perspective. A few simple examples are all that is necessary to show that Calvinism is actually the only just theology. However, I disgress, you were talking about the atonement.

The third point of the five-point acrostic TULIP is Limited Atonement. Of all the points of Calvinism this is the most hotly disputed, although I have never understood why. Limited atonement, or particular redemption, is the most obvious of all the points, and all orthodox Christian believe in the limited atonement of Christ's death. I'll show you how.

Ask your typical Protestant who Christ died for and he or she will most likely reply, "everyone." Fair enough. We then ask a follow-up question, "What was the effect of Christ's death?" Here there might be a couple different answers, such as, "He died so that anyone who believes could be saved," or, "He died to save the world." Now, since the entire world will not be saved, we can immediately discard the latter argument, which leaves us with an obviously limited atonement: "Christ died so that anyone who believes could be saved." This is the orthodox view of the atonement for all Christians. No one believes that Jesus's death on the cross atones for the sins of the unrepentant. If that were true, his sacrifice would be atoning for the sins of the unjust, the unrighteous. That would make God unrighteous because he would be accepting unjustified sinners into heaven. The Word is clear that we are justified by grace through faith. If a man has not faith, he has not grace. It is therefore impossible for God to justify a man without faith, which means that Jesus's sacrifice does not atone for his sins.

Now, there is a second side to the battle. Many have cleverly tried to avoid this obviously logical pitfall and argue that Christ's atonement was part of a "universal design" for the atonement, but that only those who believe will be saved, of course. However, this violates the laws of cause and effect. To say that God intended for all men to be justified by Christ's sacrifice, but that some aren't, is to say that God is not sovereign. That is to say that there is something that God cannot do: atone for the sins of everyone. If God purposes to do something, it will be done. "For he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest Thou?" (Dan. 4:35 KJV). God's will cannot be frustrated. If I decide to get up and get a drink of water and God decides that I should drink iced tea instead, well, then I'm going to be drinking iced tea. There are no exceptions to this.

Furthermore, God foreknows those who are his. God knows his elect. He knew them before he even created the world. For him to design Christ's sacrifice for all men knowing that only the elect will believe makes absolutely no sense. That would be unjust. It would not be a genuine offer. He would essentially be teasing people with the gift of salvation. All you have to do is believe in Christ and you will be atoned--but since he already knows that they won't believe, the offer has no meaning at all. It would be like offering someone a million dollars if they killed themselves. What in the world is the point of an offer like that? Even if they did kill themselves, they would neither be dead to redeem it, nor be alive to enjoy it. Such is the same as an offer of atonement to those who will never believe.

So you see the solidarity of the Limited Atonement doctrine stands firmly upon the rock. Knowing so plainly and honestly that the nature of the atonement is inherently limited, we can better understand the Scriptures that seem to contradict this by studying their immediate context and their biblical context.

I'll discuss two of the most commonly cited "proof texts" against Limited Atonement to set your mind at ease. They are 1 John 2:2, and the one you have quoted, 1 Tim. 2:4.

When we confer in 1 John 2:2 we need to consider other verses that clarify the point made. I was doing some recent study and came across a couple of verses that clarify the assertion of 2:2 very well.

John makes it clear in the third chapter of his first epistle that he is speaking of the elect of the whole world.
(1 John 3:5 KJV) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Jesus came to take away our sins. That is, believers:
(1 John 3:6 KJV) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

What John is saying is that to whoever sin is imputed, he has not been atoned, but those that have been atoned, to them sin is not imputed, for they are justified through faith. Moreover, this is precisely the purpose for which Matthew attributed his birth in his account of the Gospel, viz. that Christ came to atone for the sins of those who have faith (his people):
(Matt. 1:21 KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Additionally, Paul conveys the context of the passage in a parallel statement in Romans:
(Rom. 2:11-12) For there is no respect of persons with God. 12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

And then he continues:
(Rom. 3:25 KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Paul here says that the propitiation comes through faith, not universally. Moving ahead a couple of verses:
(Rom. 3:29 KJV) Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Here he sets the context of the promise: being to all people, Jew and Gentile. The promise of propitiation through faith is made without respect concerning persons (Rom. 2:11), but is made according to God's good and pleasing will (Eph. 1:11).

The idea of a universal atonement that is applicable to those who have faith is logically indefensible. It is a cause without an effect. (It follows the same argument used by James against dead faith in the second chapter of his epistle.) A cause without an effect is meaningless, useless, and non-existent. There is no such thing as a cause without an effect.

1 Tim. 2:4 is explained much more easily. Let's have a look at the KJV of the verse:
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This is an accurate translation, however, the imprecision of the Greek to English translation makes it appear that Paul is saying God desires that every one be saved. Of course, this is not possible, because if God truly desired that all would be saved, then all would. Instead, let's have a look at a much clearer, much more literal rendering of the Greek. I'll cite the Analytical-Literal Translation:
who desires all people [or, peoples] to be saved and to come to a full [or, true] knowledge of the truth.
The Greek word being translated "men," or "people," or "peoples" is anthropos. This word means many things. Here is the Thayer definition:

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon said:
ἄνθρωπος

anthrōpos

Thayer Definition:

1) a human being, whether male or female

1a) generically, to include all human individuals

1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order

1b1) of animals and plants

1b2) of from God and Christ

1b3) of the angels

1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin

1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity

1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul

1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God

1g) with reference to sex, a male

2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one

3) in the plural, people

4) joined with other words, merchantman

Part of Speech: noun masculine

What we see, rather clearly, is that "men" or "people" here refers not to all men individually, but to all peoples, that is, all kinds of people: both Jew and Gentile. This is the most common use of anthropos in the New Testament. It is a generic term used to refer to humanity. And, of course, this is very much true of God's grace toward all "kinds" of men. Again, this is much the same "problem" that we saw in 1 John 2:2 that was explained by Rom. 3:29. Paul is saying that God desires all peoples of the world, regardless of race, background, gender, or otherwise to be saved. His call is not limited to the Jews, but extends to the Gentiles, whereunto Paul was ordained a preacher and apostle (1 Tim. 2:7).

I hope that aids you in your understanding.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
Upvote 0

Jon_

Senior Veteran
Jan 30, 2005
2,998
91
42
California
✟18,616.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Also, to help with your struggle to find Scriptures affirming limited atonement, have a look at these. Be sure to keep in mind that Scriptures which refer to a limited election necessarily imply a limited atonement.
(Ex. 33:19 KJV) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

(Deut. 14:2 KJV) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

(Ps. 65:4 KJV) Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

(Jer. 24:7 KJV) And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

(Jer. 32:40 KJV) And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

(Ezek. 11:19 KJV) And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

(Matt. 1:21 KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

(Matt. 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Phil. 2:13 KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

(Eph. 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

(1 John 3:5-9 KJV) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(Heb. 9:15 KJV) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

(Heb. 9:28 KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

(Heb. 10:14-18 KJV) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

(Titus 2:14 KJV) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(John 10:14-15 KJV) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

(John 10:26-28 KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

(Acts 20:28 KJV) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

(1 Cor. 6:19-20 KJV) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

(Eph. 5:25 KJV) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

(John 17:9-10 KJV) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10) And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
Upvote 0

Bulldog

Don't Tread on Me
Jan 19, 2004
7,122
176
22 Acacia Avenue
✟8,212.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Libertarian
Hello,

pro_odeh said:
And does not verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " contradict it?


who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)​

A few points:
  • The Greek word for all (pas) can mean "all in the sense of all individually, as in the statement "all the pople in the world were created by God", or it can mean "all" as in all types, as in the statement "all types of cheese are good." Which one of these it is is determined by the context.
  • The context is speaking of all types of men.
    First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, (1 Timothy 2:1-3)​
    What is a king or leader? A type of man. At the time, "kings" and those "in high positions" were persecuting Christians, and Paul is merely exhorting them to pray for all types of men - persecuting government leaders included.
  • Look at verse 5:
    For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​
    Christ does not mediate between God and each invidual person, because all people do not know Christ. So it cannot be refering to all individuals here.
 
Upvote 0

CoffeeSwirls

snaps back wash after wash...
Apr 17, 2004
595
37
50
Ankeny, Iowa
Visit site
✟8,437.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Much like Unconditional Election, this is a doctrine that makes many people uncomfortable. I’ll admit, I have struggled with this one petal of the TULIP more than any of the others, including the election that was not taught to me as a child. The thing about limited atonement that I disagreed with wasn’t so much the fact that the death of Christ doesn’t save everyone, it was the matter of Christ dying for nobody other than those who were chosen.

That just seemed to limit His sacrifice to me somehow. I mean, Jesus (who is fully God and fully man) was crucified on a tree and was forsaken by His Father to die a death that was more excruciating than anything anyone could ever face. Sure, there have been countless other crucifixions in the history of the world, but none of the others involved the laying of sin upon a man to this degree. To say that this degree of suffering by a man as infinitely perfect as Jesus was intended only for those who were called seemed just inexcusable to me!

I have had the facts of this matter explained to me several times, and I believe I now have a handle on it. Or at least a fingertip grasp. Perhaps my inexpert description will help someone else who is unsure how to grasp this concept and they can reword it in such a way that others will be more willing to accept it earlier in their walks with the Lord.

Let us begin this search first in the scriptures, as it should be. Any italics you see in this section of scripture will denote the emphasis that I have added to illustrate this point.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. Did you see what I saw? The right to become children of God belongs to those who receive Him and believe in His name. This right doesn’t go out to everybody.
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Matthew 18:3 Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This sacrifice was not intended for everybody. It is meant to save those who meet the requirements of faith and repentance. It is designed for those who obey His commands. It is for those who come to Him as children, completely reliant on His saving grace for their every need. It is for those he predestined. It is not for everybody. Sadly, some people who say that they’re glad this works for us, but is not for them may be right on the money. That’s not to say that we should ignore them and never share the gospel, for each one of us was dead in our sins at one time, and carried the attitude that conversion wasn’t for us. Each one of us who have been granted repentance and faith had someone who didn’t give up on us. Each one of us has a story of the time that it really hit home and they felt the call to truly believe. Let us not ever give up on anyone, whether they be a friend or foe. If giving up on others was an option in the Christian life, who knows where I would be now? Most likely in jail or worse. But that’s another story related to the miracle of my conversion. I will share it with you one day.

I have provided some passages that show that there are requirements to achieve the fullness of God’s grace. Whether you believe in the same doctrines as I, you cannot read an accurate translation of the Bible and not be able to see that salvation is not offered to everyone without some requirements. But what has this to do with limited atonement?

If you’ll recall, I began this article by discussing my distaste for the sacrifice of God being reduced to the possible salvation of a few. Consider this, though. If the crucifixion and resurrection were accomplished for every person in the world without exception, and if some people do die in their sins to be judged by their works compared to God’s expectations, wouldn’t this mean that the sacrifice of the Son of God had failed this person somehow? If Christ died for this person’s sins and yet they spent an eternity apart from Him, was it all for naught?

In light of this scenario, doesn’t it make sense that the limited atonement that I have come to believe in glorifies God more than the failures that would have resulted had Jesus been crucified for those who would be damned anyway? The chief end of man is to glorify God by worshiping Him forever. I glorify God by believing that His saving grace is enough for those He has chosen. This is more glorious than to believe that His death on the cross resulted in a world where a majority of the “opportunities” given Him turned into utter failures.

John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.​
Related posts from this and other blogs:
John Owen’s Defence of Particular Redemption
L - Limited Atonement
 
Upvote 0

Elect

It is God that Justifies
Jun 9, 2005
403
22
58
Wichita Falls, TX
Visit site
✟667.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
pro_odeh said:
I have looked into calvinism lately, but I still have some problems making it fit with what the Bible teaches, that God is just, all good and so on. So I was wondering what in the Bible supports this idea?
And does not verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " contradict it?

God bless!!
Limited Atonement was the hardest for me to except. I had no trouble excepting the other four points of the Doctrines of Grace, when I started searching the Scriptures. so I decided to believe just four points and what did it matter anyway that the Atonement was limited to just the elect or not. I believed this for about a week and then I realized that this would be inconsistent Theology. This is why in some of my post I harp on being consistent in one's Theology.

If we have been bought with a price then we do not belong to ourselves but belong to the one who bought us which is God. Does God loose what He has bought? Have all the souls in Hell been bought by God and He lost them? If so, then God wouldn't be God because He would have failed to do what He purposed and desired but there are plenty of Scriptures that state that God does all that He desires and that no one can stay His hand.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it."[size=-1] (Isaiah 46:9-11)[/size]

[size=-1]"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"[size=-1] (Daniel 4:35)
[/size]
[/size]

[size=-1][size=-1]"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"[size=-1] (Romans 9:17-24)[/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"[size=-1] (Ephesians 1:11)[/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]If these verses are true then God will save all that He purposed to save.[/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]If the atonement was limited to some then there would be Scriptures that would say so. Right?[/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]One thing that may help is to ask some questions about the Atonement and let the Scriptures answer the questions. I have done this and this is what I came up with. I hope this helps.[/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1][/size][/size]
[size=-1][size=-1]Q.[size=-1] [size=-1]For what reason did Jesus die?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: [/size][size=-1]for the transgression of my people was he stricken[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Isaiah 53:8)



[/size]Q. [size=-1]For whom did Jesus die for?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A. [size=-1]"I am the good shepherd:[/size][size=-1] the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (John 10:11)[/size]

[size=-1]Q. What did Jesus purches with His blood?

A. "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]In Revelation 3:20, Jesus said "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." So who are the ones that will hear His voice?
[/size][size=-1]
[/size]A.[size=-1]"My sheep hear my voice[/size][size=-1], and I know them, and they follow me:" [/size][size=-1](John 10:27)



[/size]Q.[size=-1] To whom will Jesus give eternal life too?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"My sheep[/size][size=-1] hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [/size][size=-1]And I give unto them eternal life[/size][size=-1]; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."[/size][size=-1] (John 10:27-28)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]Who will be saved from their sins?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: [/size][size=-1]for he shall save his people from their sins[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Matthew 1:21)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]Can a person who is not a sheep believe the Gospel?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"[/size][size=-1]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep[/size][size=-1], as I said unto you."[/size][size=-1] (John 10:26)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]Can a person come to Jesus on his own free will alone from God?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, [/size][size=-1]that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (John 6:65)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]Who teaches men that Jesus is the Christ?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: [/size][size=-1]for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Mattew 16:13-17)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]Does everyone that is taught of the Father come to Jesus?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. [/size][size=-1]Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (John 6:45)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]Does God purposely reveal truth to some and with hold truth from others?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, [/size][size=-1]Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Matthew 13:10-11)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]Why do believers love God?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"We love him, [/size][size=-1]because he first loved us.[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1] (1 John 4:19)



[/size]Q.[size=-1] When did God first love us?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]" According as he hath chosen us in him [/size][size=-1]before the foundation of the world[/size][size=-1], that we should be holy and without blame before him [/size][size=-1]in love[/size][size=-1]:"[/size][size=-1] (Ephesians 1:4)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]Why has God chosen some and by past others?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, [/size][size=-1]according to the good pleasure of his will[/size][size=-1], To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."[/size][size=-1] (Ephesians 1:4-6)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]By what authority does God do this?[/size][size=-1]

[/size]A.[size=-1]"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, [/size][size=-1]I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/size][size=-1] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [/size][size=-1]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour[/size][size=-1]? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"[/size][size=-1] (Romans 9:14-24)



[/size]Q.[size=-1]The words "we" and "us" used in the New Testament refer to all of mankind or just believers?

[/size]A. [size=-1]The Scriptures were written by believers to believers. A distinction is made between believers and the rest of the world. The Word declares that we are not of the world, so in most, if not all, the words "we" and "us" refer to the elect of God and not to all of mankind.

[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1]We[/size][size=-1] love him, because he first loved[/size][size=-1] us[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (1 John 4:19)
[/size][/size]
[/size]
[/size]
 
Upvote 0

Rolf Ernst

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2004
872
44
✟1,350.00
Faith
Calvinist
In John's gospel, chapter seventeen, Jesus is entering into His work as the great high priest. As a faithful high priest it is important that He offer His high priestly prayer in a fashion that is altogether pleasing to the Father; that He pray according to the will of God. Therefore He is careful to say to the Father in His prayer, "I pray not for the world, but for those you have given me."

carefully note that limitation! He is limiting His prayer to only those given to Him

This is very important. If Jesus had prayed without restriction that everyone be with Him where He was, if He had offered up His prayer for those concerning whom the Father would never answer the petitions He requested in the affirmative, His high priestly prayer would have been contrary to the Father's ultimate will. Therefore it would be fatally flawed. Likewise, if Jesus had offered up Himself for those who would never believe on Him, it would have resulted in an offering that was not wholly pleasing to the Father, and therefore it would have been an offering never acceptable to the Father because the Father would never fulfill its intent, neither would the Holy Spirit have ever quickened all those for whom the offering was made. It would have been an offering that was fatally flawed in its intent. And it is not possible that as High Priest the Son of God would make an offering not fully approved by both the Father and the Holy spirit. It is not possible that the Great High Priest make an ofering that was not fully received and therefore acted upon by the Father and the Spirit!!
 
Upvote 0

Jon_

Senior Veteran
Jan 30, 2005
2,998
91
42
California
✟18,616.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
JamesMichael said:
And yet you believe it is Gods will that Only a few, and not all be saved?

It ain't hyper calvinism, it is Calvinist theology, through, and through, only us, the elected few, and all the rest can :cry: boo hoo hoo! ^_^

I once considered taking my Bible to a major publishing firm to have it edited to confrom to modern day denominational election theology but then I realized if I did that I would no longer have a large book full of Gods unchanging promises, I'd only have a little pamphlet with a few pages, of very small paragraphs about a do nothing, uncertain, prejudiced god......

BTW which major earthly denomination is this election theology most heavily promoted by?

Baptists?

Presby's?

Methodists?

Church Of Christ ? Ooooops I forgot they're not a denomination, they're a corporation! ^_^
Great. Another idiot troll who doesn't know the Bible from the hole in his head.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Scholar in training

sine ira et studio
Feb 25, 2005
5,952
219
United States
✟15,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Jon_ said:
The third point of the five-point acrostic TULIP is Limited Atonement. Of all the points of Calvinism this is the most hotly disputed, although I have never understood why. Limited atonement, or particular redemption, is the most obvious of all the points, and all orthodox Christian believe in the limited atonement of Christ's death.
Is this statement intentionally misleading? You're not the type that equates Arminianism with "neotheism", are you?
 
Upvote 0

CoffeeSwirls

snaps back wash after wash...
Apr 17, 2004
595
37
50
Ankeny, Iowa
Visit site
✟8,437.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Did Christ bear the sins of every person in all the world, past present and future? That is, is everybody atoned and propitiated for? If so, why isn't everybody going to Heaven? Why is there a place for God's eternal wrath against sin if everybody's sin has been covered equally? Is the promise of anyone's salvation assured if everybody's isn't? Did Jesus fail in His mission to save absolutely everybody?

Of course, the alternative is a responsive God who is just hoping we allow Him to be our instrument of our own salvation. Me? I prefer a God who has the sovereignty to act according to His wishes whether we have agreed to His plans beforehand.

I say this plainly and without embellishment because your name implies that you are willing to study the scriptures with an open mind and that you will accept whatever God has to say about Himself as well as His salvation that He offers to those His son came to save.
 
Upvote 0

Scholar in training

sine ira et studio
Feb 25, 2005
5,952
219
United States
✟15,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
CoffeeSwirls said:
Did Christ bear the sins of every person in all the world, past present and future?
Yes.

That is, is everybody atoned and propitiated for?
Atoned for, but not completed.

If so, why isn't everybody going to Heaven?
Because not everyone will take the check.

Is the promise of anyone's salvation assured if everybody's isn't?
I believe that apostacy is possible, even for the righteous.

I say this plainly and without embellishment because your name implies that you are willing to study the scriptures with an open mind and that you will accept whatever God has to say about Himself as well as His salvation that He offers to those His son came to save.
OK.
 
Upvote 0

CoffeeSwirls

snaps back wash after wash...
Apr 17, 2004
595
37
50
Ankeny, Iowa
Visit site
✟8,437.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Just so you can understand where I'm coming from, I do say that God loves everyone in the world. That does not mean that He has the same amount of love for all. Oh my goodness, you're one year old! Sorry. I'm married and have a son. I love them both. I also love my neighbors. The love I have for my family is greater than the love I have for my neighbors. I will sacrifice myself to a farther degree for my family than I will for my neighbor. This does not imply that I have my neighbor. It just says that the love I have for my family is greater.

I say that Christ went to the cross for the sins of many, but not all. His life/death/resurrection is sufficient for all of the world, but was not applied to all of the world. Jesus came to this world for the purpose of bringing glory to the Father first and foremost, and He accomplished all that He was to do by the power of the Holy Spirit. All of the sins of those whose transgressions are forgiven were placed upon Him as He took the curse for us. Those who will remain on their sins will go to judgement day with a negative balance and will be rightfully cast into the lake of fire.

If Jesus died for someone who will burn forever anyway, did He really accomplish anything or did he only pave the way for us to accomplish our own salvation? That is the picture we are painted in most of today's churches. It is one that says that we all just want to be good enough or listen close enough to agree to enough facts so that we will sign a card, walk an aisle, raise a hand or what have you. Under this belief, a great deal of pressure is placed on the pastor, because if he doesn't save anyone (an impossibility for anyone but God) he has failed. The power of Christ is all that we have, though, and we honor Him by turning the attention to Him and not to the next strategy for drawing a human response.

We enter into salvation under God's terms or not at all. He hasn't left his checkbook for us to pay for the meal. He has already paid for the meal for those who were purchased since before the foundation of the world. Those He has elected to save are fools if we think our will is stronger than the will of the God of Heaven and Earth, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the one who only needed to speak and light came when there was no light. His will is sovereign and we are not. I am not implying that you must believe in Calvinism to be saved. Calvin didn't die for anybody's sins. But he did teach a doctrine of grace, of the unearned favor from God to those He chose for His own pleasure.

Those He saves He preserves. And that is a good thing.
bible.gif
2 Timothy 2:10-13
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself.

 
Upvote 0

Jon_

Senior Veteran
Jan 30, 2005
2,998
91
42
California
✟18,616.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Scholar in training said:
Is this statement intentionally misleading? You're not the type that equates Arminianism with "neotheism", are you?
Believing that Christ's death was universally atoning amounts to universalist heresy. If you acknowledge that Christ died for all, then you acknowledge that Christ atoned for all the sins of mankind. Because Christ's death is atoning, and all sins are atoned for, the logical consequence of the universal atonement view is universalism, which is heretical. Trying to qualify this with "atoning but not effective," then amounts to a denial of Christ's atonement, which is also heresy.

This is the primary reason why Arminianism was twice repudiated, and why I call it as it is: an heretical doctrine.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jon_

Senior Veteran
Jan 30, 2005
2,998
91
42
California
✟18,616.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
JamesMichael said:
Such a Kind Loving Sincere Christ Like Christian Expression!

You must allow me the priviledge of knowing the name of your denomination so that I too may be a part of it's elite illustrious Christ Like membership.

BTW exactly which hole in my head were you referring to? ^_^
Get lost, PenecostalEvangelist.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
Upvote 0

JamesMichael

Active Member
Aug 29, 2005
27
0
71
✟137.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Jon_ said:
Get lost, PenecostalEvangelist.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Oh My Such a sincere display of true Christ Like Love. Well maybe I should return in kind How Bout if you go for a long swim in the lake of fire.

I never did one thing to deserve your display of satanic hatred there jonny boy, you profess to be a Christian, well you sure do think you got God fooled don't you.
 
Upvote 0

Scholar in training

sine ira et studio
Feb 25, 2005
5,952
219
United States
✟15,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Jon_ said:
Believing that Christ's death was universally atoning amounts to universalist heresy. If you acknowledge that Christ died for all, then you acknowledge that Christ atoned for all the sins of mankind.
Nope, because not everyone will take the free gift offered to them, for whatever reason: they think it is ridiculous, they would rather not change their behavior, etc. That's the simple explanation.

Because Christ's death is atoning, and all sins are atoned for, the logical consequence of the universal atonement view is universalism, which is heretical. Trying to qualify this with "atoning but not effective," then amounts to a denial of Christ's atonement, which is also heresy.
A denial of Christ's atonement? Your version of the atonement is that of a forced gift, a contradiction in terms.

This is the primary reason why Arminianism was twice repudiated, and why I call it as it is: an heretical doctrine.
As long as you understand that some people see Calvinism as heretical, to whatever extent it can be called that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jon_

Senior Veteran
Jan 30, 2005
2,998
91
42
California
✟18,616.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Scholar in training said:
Nope, because not everyone will take the free gift offered to them, for whatever reason: they think it is ridiculous, they would rather not change their behavior, etc. That's the simple explanation.

A denial of Christ's atonement? Your version of the atonement is that of a forced gift, a contradiction in terms.

As long as you understand that some people see Calvinism as heretical, to whatever extent it can be called that.
Christ's atonement is not a gift offered, it is an effectual act of redemption. It is not Christ's atonement that is offered through the Gospel, it is salvation through that atonement. It is faith, given by the grace of God; it is regeneration, irresistably worked by the Holy Spirit; and it is redemption, effectually ensured by the Son. These things are not a free gift offered to man to be accepted at his whim, but what God does for man because he is loving, merciful, and gracious. A gift need not be offered for it to be given. But again, I stress that salvation is not a gift in the sense that you are using the term.

Men may lay the accusation that Calvinism is heretical, but this only further increases their error as they add the sin of lying to their damning heresy.

This is not the proper forum to debate these issues, though. Might I suggest you start a thread in Soteriology if you are interested in a debate?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
Upvote 0