"Like Any Drug..."

[Hetta]

So here's a thought of mine--I've talked to people who were raised without any exposure to it at all, and it seems to me that (maybe I'm wrong) for the average woman it is not a common experience either. I wonder if this is part of why there is this confusion about how to deal with it? If part of it is an element of culture shock?

No. I have seen porn too, as a young woman. I just didn't ever search it out - but I did search out information about sex and about body parts in encyclopedias, and how it all was 'put together'. That said, the porn I saw then was just stupid, ridiculous, but also embarassing. I didn't want men to view me like that, as a [body part] to be penetrated.

That's not very well expressed - but I felt humiliated by what I saw. Hard to explain.

Further edited - I felt violated by what I saw. That gets the right word at last.

 

[seeingeyes]

well I dont watch porn and I dont touch, but I once was a slave to both, there is freedom from both of these things, but it calls for taking control over your thought life, and holding every thought captive to Christ

So you could contribute meaningfully to this topic, but you choose instead to point fingers at the perceived sins of others?

 

[McScribe]

No. I have seen porn too, as a young woman. I just didn't ever search it out - but I did search out information about sex and about body parts in encyclopedias, and how it all was 'put together'. That said, the porn I saw then was just stupid, ridiculous, but also embarassing. I didn't want men to view me like that, as a [body part] to be penetrated.

That's not very well expressed - but I felt humiliated by what I saw. Hard to explain.

Further edited - I felt violated by what I saw. That gets the right word at last.

Why do you think that was the conclusion you drew from it?

I ask because I don't remember it being seen that way...that the woman was just reduced to body parts. While that was the focus it was not intended to reduce a woman to nothing but her sexual parts as a whole, any more than say a quarterback being looked at as his attributes as a player being the whole of the man. I'm wondering where your sense of humiliation came from.

 

[Hetta]

Why do you think that was the conclusion you drew from it?

I ask because I don't remember it being seen that way...that the woman was just reduced to body parts. While that was the focus it was not intended to reduce a woman to nothing but her sexual parts as a whole, any more than say a quarterback being looked at as his attributes as a player being the whole of the man. I'm wondering where your sense of humiliation came from.

Because she was only wanted for penetration. That was her sole purpose: for a man/men to insert their body parts into her orifice/s. And that was all she wanted from them - and she pretended to delight in it with many groans. Even as young as I was, I didn't believe that she received pleasure from what was being done to her, and I was unhappy that men might think this was typical of a woman, to want to be taken in such a rough manner, by other men, and so casually because this was a scenario where a man just wondered in and 10 minutes later they were having sex.

I would rather not discuss this any more, sorry. I feel discomfort when I dwell on those images.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

Why do you think that was the conclusion you drew from it?

I can't answer for Hetta, but I have had the same feelings and reactions to porn, so I'll take a stab here.

The reason that I felt degraded, violated, humiliated from watching some of the porn I have seen is because the women were being degraded, violated and humiliated.

There was a lack of autonomy and agency. The women were clearly faking any enjoyment - and it wasn't good acting. Some of the things that I have seen have actually caused me to shrink in on myself at the idea of it. "That would be painful, not pleasurable."

Also the fact that most porn is sex devoid of love left me feeling degraded for watching it. There's an aspect of porn where it seems that unless the sex being depicted is illicit in some way (an affair, a one night stand, an orgy, etc) then it's not exciting.

So... to get off, you have to do something wrong. Sin is made appealing. Loving sex and intimacy are made less appealing.

I ask because I don't remember it being seen that way...that the woman was just reduced to body parts.

Can you please clarify what you mean by this? You "don't remember it being seen that way" by whom? Who is "seeing it" in that sentence? Are you saying that you didn't see it that way? Or are you saying that you think other people didn't see it that way?

While that was the focus it was not intended to reduce a woman to nothing but her sexual parts as a whole,

How can something be the focus but not intended?

What makes you believe that the effect was not intended?

Do you think porn producers have tried NOT to objectify women (and FTR, male actors in porn are objectified, too, although to a lesser extent)?

any more than say a quarterback being looked at as his attributes as a player being the whole of the man.

But 'we' (the viewers of football) intentionally don't care about the "whole man" who is the quarterback. So, he is intentionally 'reduced' to his football playing attributes.

I'm wondering where your sense of humiliation came from.

For me, it came because I naturally identified with the women in porn whom I was seeing. As a woman, I at least partially put myself in her place. That is, after all, the point of vicarious sexual experiences - to identify with the actors and feel what they are feeling (or more accurately, pretending to feel).

And when I watched porn (my viewing of porn has been mostly 'soft' stuff like the stuff on Cinemax after 9pm), for the most part it presented a scenario that would humiliate me in real life. The sex is between strangers more often than not. There's no intimacy. No love.

The idea of having sex with a man who doesn't love me is humiliating and degrading. All he wants then, is sex. A place to stick his bits. It's not me as a person.

Some glimpses of more "hard core" porn have been even more degrading and humiliating because the acts depicted were inherently degrading. Things that cause people pain. Rape or border-line rape situations. I don't want to get too graphic for a Christian site. But there's some things in some porn that I think are intended to be degrading to women especially. Things that are done to women that would humiliate anyone. But the actresses pretend to like it. So it gives a skewed sense of what women want to men. The thought of a man seeing porn and thinking that I, or any regular woman, would actually like that done to us.... it grosses me out and makes me mad.

The idea that a man would get off on hurting me makes me feel degraded and humiliated. The idea that a man would want to do things to/with my body that I find uncomfortable or painful is abhorrent to me.


I think men lack empathy for the women in porn. And that porn actually decreases any empathy they may have had. Men naturally identify with the men in porn. They are the ones doing, not the ones having things done to them. I think if more men thought about how the woman must really be feeling have _____ done to her.... they'd be less turned on by it.

 

[Hetta]

Christian Golfer, you said it so much better. Thank you for explaining. And yes, these are many of my experiences and thoughts about pornography also. I just did not have the words to express it this way.

 

[McScribe]

I can't answer for Hetta, but I have had the same feelings and reactions to porn, so I'll take a stab here.

The reason that I felt degraded, violated, humiliated from watching some of the porn I have seen is because the women were being degraded, violated and humiliated.

There was a lack of autonomy and agency. The women were clearly faking any enjoyment - and it wasn't good acting. Some of the things that I have seen have actually caused me to shrink in on myself at the idea of it. "That would be painful, not pleasurable."

Some pornography is of course deliberately intended to show people being subjugated, humiliated and degraded. I can understand your disgust at seeing it.

Also the fact that most porn is sex devoid of love left me feeling degraded for watching it. There's an aspect of porn where it seems that unless the sex being depicted is illicit in some way (an affair, a one night stand, an orgy, etc) then it's not exciting.

So... to get off, you have to do something wrong. Sin is made appealing. Loving sex and intimacy are made less appealing.

I'd actually go a little farther than this. I think that the popular depictions of sexuality in most movies, television, and other media in Canada and the US in particular have the qualities you just described. I have to search my memory to find any examples that show love, tenderness and intimacy. It's ironically more customary to draw a veil over such scenes and to be explicit in some way about what is illicit. Overwhelmingly, I have seen more promiscuity, wild partying, horror movie murders, rapes, prostitution, stripping etc than loving tenderness that showed nudity or sexuality in movies and television. Pornography is really just the attitude with the packaging ripped off it.

Can you please clarify what you mean by this? You "don't remember it being seen that way" by whom? Who is "seeing it" in that sentence? Are you saying that you didn't see it that way? Or are you saying that you think other people didn't see it that way?

I mean by mean and my friends at the time. There was the general understanding that you were supposed to learn to be a good lover, learn how to talk to women, and we enjoyed the company of our girlfriends and saw them as friends.

How can something be the focus but not intended?

What makes you believe that the effect was not intended?

Do you think porn producers have tried NOT to objectify women (and FTR, male actors in porn are objectified, too, although to a lesser extent)?

But 'we' (the viewers of football) intentionally don't care about the "whole man" who is the quarterback. So, he is intentionally 'reduced' to his football playing attributes.

There is also the understanding that he is a man who has a family, other interests, and so on, it's just that at that moment the focus is on him as a quarterback. Let's be honest, when you are seeing his profile in Sports Illustrated you aren't looking for what he does on a lazy Sunday afternoon or how he met his wife or anything like that; you're looking for his goals as a team leader, how well he recovered from his knee injury, if he is cocky or genuinely confident, etc. However that doesn't mean that you aren't AWARE that he has other qualities, and that if they were presented you wouldn't be interested.

Now having said this, I know that not everyone is alike, and that there are people who would just be interested in particular attributes. But it's not how it always is, in my experience.

For me, it came because I naturally identified with the women in porn whom I was seeing. As a woman, I at least partially put myself in her place. That is, after all, the point of vicarious sexual experiences - to identify with the actors and feel what they are feeling (or more accurately, pretending to feel).

And when I watched porn (my viewing of porn has been mostly 'soft' stuff like the stuff on Cinemax after 9pm), for the most part it presented a scenario that would humiliate me in real life. The sex is between strangers more often than not. There's no intimacy. No love.

The idea of having sex with a man who doesn't love me is humiliating and degrading. All he wants then, is sex. A place to stick his bits. It's not me as a person.

In my experience, again, women often have the same point of view. Perhaps it is how I grew into my teen years--being involved in partying, hooking up, overhearing the girls talking about the guys as the guys talked about the girls--it was simply part of the culture. Again, it wasn't dehumanizing; it didn't mean for example that someone you had hooked up with wasn't a human being. The way me and my friends tended to see it, someone who dehumanized you was a jerk, someone to avoid. In a way we all had the attitude that if you were going to seriously date someone you wanted to know what they were like in bed first. I did not encounter attitudes outside of that (apart from in people much older than me) until I became a Christian.

Some glimpses of more "hard core" porn have been even more degrading and humiliating because the acts depicted were inherently degrading. Things that cause people pain. Rape or border-line rape situations. I don't want to get too graphic for a Christian site. But there's some things in some porn that I think are intended to be degrading to women especially. Things that are done to women that would humiliate anyone. But the actresses pretend to like it. So it gives a skewed sense of what women want to men. The thought of a man seeing porn and thinking that I, or any regular woman, would actually like that done to us.... it grosses me out and makes me mad.

The idea that a man would get off on hurting me makes me feel degraded and humiliated. The idea that a man would want to do things to/with my body that I find uncomfortable or painful is abhorrent to me.

There's both; there's S&M for men and for women both. Pornography is as complicated as we human beings are. But again, I must emphasize that people in general have a degraded understanding of sexuality itself. Our society itself presents a dysfunctional sexuality, and pornography is merely the naked (no pun intended) extreme picture of it.

I think men lack empathy for the women in porn. And that porn actually decreases any empathy they may have had. Men naturally identify with the men in porn. They are the ones doing, not the ones having things done to them. I think if more men thought about how the woman must really be feeling have _____ done to her.... they'd be less turned on by it.

I think that we all lack empathy for one another until we learn it. Empathy doesn't come naturally to us. We come into the world as a helpless bundle of needs, and have to learn by example. Most people want to be loved, I believe, but have no idea how to be loved, or at best a rather dysfunctional idea of how to be loved.

It's not just women who are degraded by pornography; men are degraded by it as well. Both men and women are told by pornography that we need to be amazing sexual gymnasts, super endowed performers who make other people fall at their feet drooling with obsessive urges. I remember when I was only 11 a guy I knew almost shoving a Hustler spread (literally) at my face (he was a year older) insisting that I should want this woman in that pose or I was gay. As I've written, I didn't fall for that. (and in fact I was shocked and disgusted at the time)

What answer for example does Christianity present as to how to have a blessed and loving sexuality? Nothing really but get married. I remember trying to talk in my old church about the Song of Solomon, how it is actually in a way (from my perspective) a kind of marriage manual about sexual intimacy, with its tender and open intimacy, the sense of kindness and goodness that each person, the maiden and the king seek to have for one another. But no one wanted to talk about that; they wanted to talk about how it's really a picture of Christ's love for the Church--which is actually a common theological understanding of it. It was as though they were embarrassed to discuss it in terms of sexual intimacy.

 

[Avniel]

I think men lack empathy for the women in porn. And that porn actually decreases any empathy they may have had. Men naturally identify with the men in porn. They are the ones doing, not the ones having things done to them. I think if more men thought about how the woman must really be feeling have _____ done to her.... they'd be less turned on by it.

Me personally I find porn disgusting and in some ways homosexual.

However my question to you is what about the woman? With your post I'm made to believe that the woman in this case is the victim. But she really isn't she getting paid for her discomfort and lack of pleasure. I believe that there is a lack of empathy for women in porn because they it's a choice that they make. It reminds me of a debate my wife and I have constantly regarding rap. She feels that it is degrading to women but I think if it wasn't for a lot of women degrading themselves then those lyrics wouldn't be relevant. It is a reflection of the issue not the issue itself rap like porn is a symptom of the problem. If more women refused to be degraded would there even be porn?

As far as empathy goes at least in my community most guys will have sex with anybody on a Friday or Saturday night. However I find that men respect women based on how they conduct themselves. The more wanton a woman is with her body the less men have empathy for her as a woman. Most men have issues being empathetic towards a woman they feel isn't worth their respect.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

Me personally I find porn disgusting and in some ways homosexual.

However my question to you is what about the woman? With your post I'm made to believe that the woman in this case is the victim.

I think porn turns men and women both into victims.

I did say in my earlier post that I think the male actors are also objectified.

But most porn is aimed at the male demographic. So it's more likely to deliver images in which the men are dominant, with agency and autonomy and where the women are submissive, receptive.

But she really isn't she getting paid for her discomfort and lack of pleasure.

Getting paid to be dehumanized doesn't make it less dehumanizing.

There's a reason why prostitution is not considered to be an ideal choice for women. Even though a lot of money might be made doing it, it's still very degrading.

And it's not just discomfort and lack of pleasure. It's exposure to many various diseases, rape and abuse.

I believe that there is a lack of empathy for women in porn because they it's a choice that they make.

I think you're being overly simplistic and callous. Lack of empathy is what leads people to say "she deserves it." The lack of empathy - the inability to consider for a moment that not all choices are really freely made - is what allows you to conclude that they deserve to not be shown any empathy.

Not all porn actors have made a free, informed decision to be in porn. In fact, I'd argue that most haven't made such a choice.

Some come to it because they were run-aways - fleeing homes of abuse and violence. I think statistics have shown that most people who get involved in pornography were abused as children. Many are drug addicts.

Many are slaves.

It reminds me of a debate my wife and I have constantly regarding rap. She feels that it is degrading to women but I think if it wasn't for a lot of women degrading themselves then those lyrics wouldn't be relevant. It is a reflection of the issue not the issue itself rap like porn is a symptom of the problem. If more women refused to be degraded would there even be porn?

This is called blaming the victim.

Yes, if more women had the ability, the education, the confidence to demand to be treated with respect then we would see a lot less of porn and other things that are degrading to women.

There is no question that women often participate in their own objectification and subjugation.

But they actually have a term for that: Stockholm Syndrome.

People don't degrade themselves because they like it. They wouldn't do it if there were no external pressure to do it.

And if men refused to degrade and demean and objectify women, then women wouldn't do it.

As far as empathy goes at least in my community most guys will have sex with anybody on a Friday or Saturday night. However I find that men respect women based on how they conduct themselves. The more wanton a woman is with her body the less men have empathy for her as a woman. Most men have issues being empathetic towards a woman they feel isn't worth their respect.

And yet those men still want someone to sleep with them, yes?

That's straight-up misogyny, Avniel.

I don't doubt that it's true. Men have been demanding, cajoling, begging, pressuring, seducing women to get down and dirty with them and then turning around and calling those same women w***s and s**ts for eons.

And again, their lack of empathy is what creates their lack of respect. Not the other way around.

Empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and at least imagine what they are feeling.

The men you're talking about have obviously never attempted to do that. Because those men think it's perfectly acceptable for themselves to be promiscuous but then actually judge the women they're being promiscuous with as unworthy of their respect.

But those men are probably puffing their chests out and demanding that they themselves be treated with respect.

That's just human arrogance and sinfulness at work.

And blaming the women? Give me a break.

 

[DZoolander]

However my question to you is what about the woman? With your post I'm made to believe that the woman in this case is the victim. But she really isn't she getting paid for her discomfort and lack of pleasure.

My issue re: women in pornography isn't so much where they are at the moment - although that factors in to a degree like what Hetta said - but rather the culmination of circumstances that brought them up to that point.

Now there may be exceptions - but from what I've read as a general rule of thumb most performers in the adult industry have had really crappy pasts. They were victims of abuse when they were growing up, they were molested, they were raped, etc... I can't help but think that if those things had not happened - that they probably would have chosen a different path.

So when I see many women in pornography - there's the HUGE side of me that can't help but think about the chain of events that brought them there. Sure - they may be taking part in the arrangement willfully and are receiving payment for their performance - but I also have a thing about people entering into contracts being of "sound mind". A damaged mind due to past exploitation is not the kind of "sound mind" that I am okay with.

Now - there may be exceptions to the rule...people that have made a conscious choice in a very utilitarian way believing that it's a market they can exploit and therefore have disassociated themselves in a way that most cannot. But - I *do* think that this is the exception to the rule.

So - when I think about victimhood - I'm not really thinking about what's happening in that moment...but rather I'm thinking about the person as a whole.

 

[Lilymay]

Me personally I find porn disgusting and in some ways homosexual.

However my question to you is what about the woman? With your post I'm made to believe that the woman in this case is the victim. But she really isn't she getting paid for her discomfort and lack of pleasure. I believe that there is a lack of empathy for women in porn because they it's a choice that they make. It reminds me of a debate my wife and I have constantly regarding rap. She feels that it is degrading to women but I think if it wasn't for a lot of women degrading themselves then those lyrics wouldn't be relevant. It is a reflection of the issue not the issue itself rap like porn is a symptom of the problem. If more women refused to be degraded would there even be porn?

As far as empathy goes at least in my community most guys will have sex with anybody on a Friday or Saturday night. However I find that men respect women based on how they conduct themselves. The more wanton a woman is with her body the less men have empathy for her as a woman. Most men have issues being empathetic towards a woman they feel isn't worth their respect.

I agree with some of what you said and don't agree with some of what you said.

I agree that women and men have voluntarily made the choice to go into the porn industry... to voluntarily humiliate and degrade themselves and that porn is a symptom of the problem... problem being an earlier form of abuse.

But I do believe the average woman and man in the porn industry is a victim. Usually from abuse of some form earlier in life... usually sexual abuse. To the point where these people already feel degraded and humiliated and dirty. That who they are has been so severely damaged they really don't feel they deserve any better. So these are the people we truly need to have much empathy for.

And the town girls who are more wanton... ask yourself why they are like that. I won't assume all, but I would say on the average there was abuse in their past. So they become s***ty because they, how to explain this... it is like self destructing. They are out doing what they do to convince themselves that they are the dirty disgusting person that they have been made to feel. It is a horrible vicious cycle people put themselves through and hard to break.

 

[ParentofChildren]

I'm always curious about stuff that I read on here w/respect to men and pornography...because it's so contrary to my own experience (albeit limited) with the issue.

Now - were I single - I couldn't really care less about porn. The reason why it's any kind of issue whatsoever to me is because I know my wife doesn't like it. So - when I was single - if I felt like watching a little porn to accomplish a purpose - I did...and then went about my day.

What I'm curious about is when I hear statements like "Like any drug - my consumption became more and more intense...more and more extreme."

What exactly does that mean?

Like - my "tastes" have always remained pretty much a constant. The less graphic it is - the better I "like" it. I have certain tastes in what kind of woman I think are physically attractive - and that's where my focus went. For lack of a better way of putting it - there are certain positions I think are better...and that's where my focus went.

So - all in all - let's say I were to compare the 20 year old EZoolander's taste in porn and what he would look up - against the 42 year old EZoolander's tastes if he were single - and I'd venture to say they're pretty much identical within MOST ranges/criteria. There really was never any "Wow - I need my fix - now I need something more intense."

So what exactly are people talking about when they say that? Is it like - last year they could be satiated with watching two attractive people going at it - but now they need a donkey and a midget? What's the deal? lol

***********

Web based porn is bad on multiple levels so it can change as someone ages. Men in particular are visually & sexually wired to respond quickly. Science shows the flow of dopamine and other nerotransmitters. Internet gives you 1,000s of pornographic opportunities in still or video in seconds. Web porn is available on family computer, at work, and on phone. Old days one needed magazine, nude bar, etc It took more time. Web porn is easier to do privately, see above. Greater privacy reduces social stigma and barrier. Net enables porn in more flavors; men can exact specific fantasy on demand. Overtime the response of porn deadens the viewer so they need different experiences to enjoy the show.

As we age, the mental & psychological drive for sexual gratification changes. A well adjusted Christian 20 something can be a 40 something over worked, martially ignored man who succumbs to temptation. Once pulled in and it may be gradual, overtime it becomes a master. Porn did not become a temptation for me until the 40s, for reasons I am trying to understand. Just get up and read a book, call a friend, do something you like outdoors. <>< Peace

 

[toLiJC]

the sex is a pretty intimate thing, that is why the fourth Commandment orders sanctification, since the delicate human nature doesn't endure system interventions on the part of human(s) because it is about the intimate which the true God can solely administer seamlessly, for exactly the system of spiritual/religious iniquity disconcerted intimate part(s) of the human (nature) until now, that is why the erotica was full of deranging things, while the Sanctification eliminates the problems easy/smooth, because the Holy Spirit comes from Above filling the God's creatures/creations (perfectly) with life, not like the human spirituality which is powered/supplied by the appearance of the "darkness"

1 Timothy 4:1-11"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith(i.e. some may deviate from the right faith toward wrong), giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines(i.e. creeds) of devils; Speaking(i.e. preaching/testifying/prophesying) lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron(i.e. with strong satanic spirituality); Forbidding to marry(i.e. disconcerting and forbidding the sex life), and commanding to abstain from meats(i.e. from natural consumptions), which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving(i.e. which the true God has made/given to be used for good purposes) of them which believe and know the truth(i.e. of those who believe right(-ly) as well as of those who do not do spiritual/religious iniquity). For every creature(i.e. for each creation) of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving(i.e. if it is used for good purposes): For it is sanctified by the word of God(i.e. of the God's work) and prayer(i.e. and by the prayers of (the) true Saints). If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith(i.e. of right faith) and of good doctrine(i.e. and of the good creed), whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables(i.e. but avoid the traditions of defiling and misleading creeds), and exercise thyself rather unto godliness(or: unto love/goodness). For bodily(or: for overweening/self-interested) exercise profiteth little: but godliness(or: love/goodness) is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(i.e. that do not commit spiritual/religious iniquity). These things command and teach."

this (passage) is one of the viewpoints of the fourth Commandment in the books of the New Testament

Blessings

 

[true2theword]

I remember an old "Dragnet" series where a young boy is caught with porn, and according to the police of that day, pornography was illegal in those days and times.

imagine the crimes that faced the school in those days, chewing gum, talking out of turn, and being late for class..............now has been replaced with rape, murder, and mayhem,

Porn is basically adultery in a package, it has and still is ruining more lives and families everywhere, not sure why it is perceived as just a boyhood rite of passing, its foundation goes right down to the pit of hell. Its what starts many young boys on a path of self abuse, and sexually immoral behaviors, that hold the person captive their whole life, even after marriage. they do them so long their consciences are seared into believing these behaviors are no more sinful then blowing ones nose.


bottom line is the sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God

what happened to self control, and denying oneself to follow Christ

 

[DZoolander]

Once again, while I may agree with you to an extent, the over-reaching issue that I have is that this seems to be THE issue for most Christians.

...and I think in making it THE issue...other issues which are equally important and/or "offensive" in the eyes of God get overlooked. Christianity has become a faith where the primary focus is subjugation of the sexual impulse - and I can't help but think that in the overall scheme of morality/ethics/Godly behavior that does people a dis-service.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I saw thousands of young people getting together to make a solemn pledge of "I'm not going to be a jerk" - or promising abstinence from angry thoughts - or affirming their lifelong commitment to love their neighbors as they love themselves...but I don't see that.

What I see, instead, is a faith where the litmus test for a young person is how he's able to quell his desire to touch (of all things, for Christ's sake). Where some kid sitting up in his dorm room hopping around in nervous anxiety because he hasn't masturbated in three weeks is the greatest showing of his Godly love or wishing to abide by God's laws. Where the primary focus and interest is on how he handles his pink bits, when he handles them, and what he's thinking about while he's handling it.

That's the focus of Christianity in a nutshell. Everything else is kinda secondary. Talk about how you flew into a rage in the car because someone cut you off this morning -yeah - maybe you'll get some sort of admonishment about forgiveness...but then it's over. No more discussion necessary. Say that an image flashed through your mind while you were rubbing yourself - and that's cause for alarm and worry about your eternal soul.

I just don't buy that line of reasoning...and I think Christianity has been led astray by allowing this to happen.

 

[true2theword]

Once again, while I may agree with you to an extent, the over-reaching issue that I have is that this seems to be THE issue for most Christians.

...and I think in making it THE issue...other issues which are equally important and/or "offensive" in the eyes of God get overlooked. Christianity has become a faith where the primary focus is subjugation of the sexual impulse - and I can't help but think that in the overall scheme of morality/ethics/Godly behavior that does people a dis-service.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I saw thousands of young people getting together to make a solemn pledge of "I'm not going to be a jerk" - or promising abstinence from angry thoughts - or affirming their lifelong commitment to love their neighbors as they love themselves...but I don't see that.

What I see, instead, is a faith where the litmus test for a young person is how he's able to quell his desire to touch (of all things, for Christ's sake). Where some kid sitting up in his dorm room hopping around in nervous anxiety because he hasn't masturbated in three weeks is the greatest showing of his Godly love or wishing to abide by God's laws. Where the primary focus and interest is on how he handles his pink bits, when he handles them, and what he's thinking about while he's handling it.

That's the focus of Christianity in a nutshell. Everything else is kinda secondary. Talk about how you flew into a rage in the car because someone cut you off this morning -yeah - maybe you'll get some sort of admonishment about forgiveness...but then it's over. No more discussion necessary. Say that an image flashed through your mind while you were rubbing yourself - and that's cause for alarm and worry about your eternal soul.

I just don't buy that line of reasoning...and I think Christianity has been led astray by allowing this to happen.

I think where you leave biblical values, is where you are unable to perceive the difference in sin, some sin's don't lead to death (being the second death, damnation) and other sins do lead to it.

So in that being said, either you believe the bible, that sexually immoral people will not inherit the kingdom of God, or they will

or its your definition of what sexual immorality is that is the issue

Jesus said if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart he is an adulterer, and that would make him sexually immoral, at least according to the bible it would.

So porn would conceivingly make all men adulterers who look at it and lust
thus it would be a sin that leads to death, if no repentance takes place

 

[DZoolander]

Which then leads us into a discussion about the relative merits of the Apostle Paul - which I've had several times on here and not really in the mood to go into again...lol

 

[true2theword]

Which then leads us into a discussion about the relative merits of the Apostle Paul - which I've had several times on here and not really in the mood to go into again...lol

then don't!

for it was the apostle Paul who made the statement "BE NOT DECEIVED for the sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God"

now if you want to see how close you can get to the lines of sexual immorality and still escape through the flames into heaven, thats solely your own choice

since there will be no retest on Judgement day, or a venue where you can debate your verdict and how you were under the impression you could have sex with anything you thought would feel good, whether your hand or an apple pie, or a knothole in a tree

It is in fact sexual immorality, it is void of any fruit of the Spirit. its a lewd behavior to say the least

 

[McScribe]

First: pornography use is not adultery. I realize it's such a popular theological interpretation that I'll sound insane to people who've come to take it for granted, but the fact is you have to covet the other person before you are committing adultery in your heart. While I would say that pornography is immoral and sinful, I would not say that it is adultery. It's simply a catchphrase to say that it is, and stubbornness to insist upon it. If looking at pornography is adultery, then you commit adultery every time you're attracted to someone--to a greater extent, I'd say. It is the degradation of the human spirit and body in pornography (even by those willing and happy to do it) that is sinful about it. That should be enough.

And frankly Ezoolander is right about something there--if it WERE enough then you'd probably see more Christians aghast at poverty (especially in wealthy nations like Canada, the US, Britain, etc), crime, people dying alone in hospitals. When I think of me caring for my grandmother and how unique people think that is--it makes me sick at heart. I go to a hospital and I see all these people who are alone and suffering, and I pray for them, I know others do, but how is it that entire communities of Christians aren't weeping for the suffering of people even in our own cities and towns? Didn't Christ say that one of the ways by which his followers would be known would be because they healed the sick, clothed the naked, fed the hungry, and loved one another as he loved us?

I can guarantee, if we were focused more on those things than on whether or not someone is looking at pornography we would be more effective as church communities. I'm not saying that we should not focus on it at all, but honestly--why do we focus more on that than on teaching honesty, courage and generosity towards others?

In the parable of the Seed and the Sower, Jesus talks about how difficult it is to create good ground for faith. Anyone who has ever done any farming or gardening knows that it is constant work. It can be very rewarding as well. Lack of moisture, too much, parasites, insects, animals, bad weather, weeds can all destroy your efforts, just as cares of this world, offenses, the plots of Satan destroy our faith. But who's tending that garden? It is supposed to be we ourselves but also our community helping us to learn that faith.

It needs to be understood that turning to pornography is MOSTLY a sin because it demonstrates a lack of faith in the belief that through the Lord we can come to appreciation of other people and ourselves as God created us.

 

[DZoolander]

then don't!

for it was the apostle Paul who made the statement "BE NOT DECEIVED for the sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God"

now if you want to see how close you can get to the lines of sexual immorality and still escape through the flames into heaven, thats solely your own choice

since there will be no retest on Judgement day, or a venue where you can debate your verdict and how you were under the impression you could have sex with anything you thought would feel good, whether your hand or an apple pie, or a knothole in a tree

It is in fact sexual immorality, it is void of any fruit of the Spirit. its a lewd behavior to say the least

In the grand scheme of things, I will allow my God given sense of conscience, morality and ethics be my guide...and not be coerced through fear into putting more credit than is deserved into a man who simply halucinated but believed it fervently.

And let's be clear about what the whole point of this discussion was. I was simply asking what people mean by pornography being like a drug - leading to greater "fixes" being required. At no point in this discussion have I lobbied that it's moral, ethical, or right. In fact I've argued that it's degrading to the women who participate in it, and that for those types of reasons porn is immoral.

Now I suppose by your litmus test, giving it a humanist explanation for being immoral isn't sufficient...and maybe I need to appeal to the "adulterous" argument (which is shaky at best, IMHO). Maybe saying that believing something is immoral because it conflicts with treating others as you'd like to be treated (which correct me if I'm wrong is actually a Christlike principle) - but argued in humanist terms - isn't sufficient in your world. Maybe in your mind raging into discussions about personal sexual immorality is somehow more righteous than getting into discussions about basic human compassion.

But - I disagree.