Ligonier Ministries’ State of Theology

[Rubiks]

So Ligonier finally understands that not all Christians are reformed baptists, huh?

Several of the issues presented the Bible says either little or nothing about. The problem with Protestant and Catholic theology is that it attempts to fit the Bible in pre-conceived theological ideas.

 

[JM]

So Ligonier finally understands that not all Christians are reformed baptists, huh?

Several of the issues presented the Bible says either little or nothing about. The problem with Protestant and Catholic theology is that it attempts to fit the Bible in pre-conceived theological ideas.

Actually, Apologetics Warrior already pointed out how the study demonstrates how evangelicals no longer understand the basics of Christianity. The problem with glib comments is that they attempt to fit their own pre-conceived theological ideas into the study without thinking deeply about them.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[royal priest]

Rule of thumb: stop reading entirely when people talk about "the clear meaning of scripture."

99% of the time they are taking a single writer at face value (usually Paul) and making fudging every other writer to fit that writer's theology.

Why can't we read Paul's theology in the light of Jesus instead of the other way around? Jesus says in Luke 10:25-28 (NRSV) Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life? He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

If any Christian preacher said this they would immediately called out as a heretic. Some even think the teaching of Jesus can be disregarded completely, because it was "before the gospel was given." The "gospel" was supposedly given only to Paul by private revelation.

I am not necessarily suggesting Paul is a false preacher. Paul's writing the most heavily debated in academia in how to interpret. 2 Peter even admits Paul's letters are difficult to understand. Personally I think the traditional Protestant reading of Paul flies completely in the face of Jesus and the Old Testament as a whole.

Jesus: be perfect and you will inherit eternal life.
Paul: Only Jesus is perfect, therefore believe in Him to inherit eternal life.
Jesus: Whoever believes in Me will inherit eternal life

 

[Rubiks]

Jesus: be perfect and you will inherit eternal life.
Paul: Only Jesus is perfect, therefore believe in Him to inherit eternal life.
Jesus: Whoever believes in Me will inherit eternal life

Buddy, you're reading around the text. That's eisegesis, not exegesis. The idea that that no one can obey God's law and God's law must be obeyed 100 percent of the time is completely foreign to Judaism. Plenty of people were called righteous in the Old Testament. God even provided a way of atoning for sin in the Old Testament in the case that it happened.

You make Jesus out to be a liar. You can either believe what he has to say, or try to fit his teaching in a pre-conceived theological template. The choice is yours, brother.

If a preacher taught that we must love God and love our neighbor in order to be saved, would people think "Oh, he's really talking about the imputed righteousness of Christ, no one can love God and love their neighbor"? Of course not! Jesus means exactly what he says.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

So Ligonier finally understands that not all Christians are reformed baptists, huh?

The founder of Ligonier Ministries has always understood, and Dr. R.C Sproul and others are Presbyterian.

Several of the issues presented the Bible says either little or nothing about.

Such as?

The problem with Protestant and Catholic theology is that it attempts to fit the Bible in pre-conceived theological ideas.

Unless one is devoid of pre-conceived theological ideas, one cannot help but approach Scripture without them. One can recognize them and be open minded enough to be reformed by the Word of God. However, this work is a work of God, a reformation of the heart and mind by the Spirit of God.

 

[royal priest]

Plenty of people were called righteous in the Old Testament.

Thanks to imputation

 

[DamianWarS]

The State of Theology

Discuss.

stats can have strong bias and misrepresent what actually is going on. What this survey represents is not official evangelical theology but instead ignorant evangelical theology. What it seems to conclude is evangelicals have lost their way and are no longer use the bible to navigate their beliefs.

It's like the difference between surveying Paul and surveying the church of Corinth about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The latter is going to reveal there is a lot of messy belief systems that need correcting but they do no reveal orthodox theology nor does it reveal the laid out path for the church.

The present state of theology across all denominations or Christian faith groups is more ignorance and less commitment and this leads to a lot of mixed belief systems of "what seems right" without having proper bible knowledge to back it up.

If the poll wanted to be more honest it would look at the official belief systems of these evangelical fellowships they are discrediting and what the top down leadership is trying to do in their churches and in their communities. I'm sure what it would reveal is a disconnect to these conclusions. The issue probably is less "bad evangelical teaching" and more cultural saturation that is very different than it was 50 years ago and affects not just the evangelical church but all western churches. (let's poll the Catholic church to see how theology of the people in the pew matches the theology of the church) My take is the evangelical church is aggressively trying to understand this while not compromising the gospel because if they did compromise the gospel they could no longer be called evangelical.

 

[Tom 1]

The State of Theology

Discuss.

The high percent of evangelical responders who believe Jesus to be a created being is a bit of a surprise. Maybe they didn’t understand the question?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

like the folks at Ligonier's are known for producing bogus studies and materials.

Some of the best teachings that we up top the mountain I've ever heard. We have hundreds of their CDs and DVDs.
Have seen RC in person.
M-Bob

 

[Rescued One]

The high percent of evangelical responders who believe Jesus to be a created being is a bit of a surprise. Maybe they didn’t understand the question?

Too many churches ignore doctrine in their sermons!

 

[Tom 1]

Too many churches ignore doctrine in their sermons!

Still, that’s a pretty central issue. Surprised me anyway.

 

[Rescued One]

Still, that’s a pretty central issue. Surprised me anyway.

I've been in some churches like that and noticed those mega churches on TV that don't teach truth. Look at how many people attend those churches.

 

[Hazelelponi]

This reminds me of when I was first saved. I looked around and found the number of Christians with an understanding of what the Bible teaches to be small.

And I'm not talking about denominational differences either, just basic understanding.

example: I had been saved all of a week, and I was visiting someone and when I got there, the person I went to visit was on the phone with someone they went to church with.

She didn't rush off the phone (which was fine with me) but continued the conversation as I grabbed some coffee. Apparently the conversation was about heaven, and the person I was visiting said she didn't know what heaven might be like, or whether or not she would even go to heaven when she died.

I found this shocking, here was this elderly woman who spent her entire life in a pew every sunday and at church for every event, and she had no earthly idea whether she was saved, or what the Bible had to say about heaven.

I wanted to share with her about surety of our salvation, and what heaven would be like, but I didn't think I should or even could seeing as how I was only just saved.

I find it surprising to have better grasp on basic things than someone who attended church and owned a bible all their life. I guess I'm not alone.

 

[AlexDTX]

The State of Theology

Discuss.

Summarize first.

 

[JM]

Summarize first.

No. This is assigned homework. I will not do your homework for you.

 

[JM]

Folks, the biggest issue that comes out of this study is that many of the commonly held Protestant doctrines (across denominations) are no longer understood or believed. It's not shocking but very sad. As the people of God we need to do better in teaching converts and those raised in the church environs.

 

[AlexDTX]

No. This is assigned homework. I will not do your homework for you.

As though we are your students? What hubris.

 

[JM]

As though we are your students? What hubris.

I would agree with you but we would both be wrong.

 

[AlexDTX]

I would agree with you but we would both be wrong.

This makes you a bad salesman. We are all adults with full lives. We look at what interests us, and your lack of summary and attitude removes all my interest. No one wants to enter conversations with people who condescend as their superiors.

 

[JM]

This makes you a bad salesman. We are all adults with full lives. We look at what interests us, and your lack of summary and attitude removes all my interest. No one wants to enter conversations with people who condescend as their superiors.

The hubris of your hubris!

The link in the op is a summary... maybe open the link up and have a read before commenting.

Yours in the Lord,

jm