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Life begin @ conception????

prodromos

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The second text is 6 monthns in, by that time soul has entered the body.
Based on your arbitrary opinion. You don't have any Scripture to support that.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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My hair grows, my nails grow and bone grows, no one would ever thing that they were alive. So convince me that the beginning stages of life are not like hair,nail and bone.
You hair, nails and bones grow because you are alive. It might surprise you, but the hair of a dead person doesn't grow.
Since you apparently missed any kind of biology lessons in school I'll help you out here: The identity of a person is known by their DNA. Your hair, nails and bones have the same DNA as the rest of your body - that's you. A child in the mother's womb, even if it is only 1 cell, has its own DNA, it is not part of the mother's body. It is a separate person from the very beginning, alive and growing.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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No fair. You are Catholic and are already clued into the answer.
Ha, Yes, One of the very few things I know a little about. But I wont touch "opportunistic salpingectomy". That's for the smart people to debate.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Based on your arbitrary opinion. You don't have any Scripture to support that.
Gen 2:7, breath of life come after the body is formed, then you become a living soul
 
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Adventist Dissident

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You hair, nails and bones grow because you are alive. It might surprise you, but the hair of a dead person doesn't grow.
Since you apparently missed any kind of biology lessons in school I'll help you out here: The identity of a person is known by their DNA. Your hair, nails and bones have the same DNA as the rest of your body - that's you. A child in the mother's womb, even if it is only 1 cell, has its own DNA, it is not part of the mother's body. It is a separate person from the very beginning, alive and growing.
but the hair, and nail and bone are not alive. they do not have thoughts and feelings. hair is not aware. yes there is genetic material and there is the instructions to form a body which becomes a person, it is not a person until you have the breath of life and have a soul. Ps 139:16,13 no soul mentioned in either text. just talking about formation. formation does not = life. it is construction.
 
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fhansen

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How about looking into ectopic pregnancy? The fetus develops in the fallopian tube. If the fetus is not aborted then both the mother and fetus will die! That is just one example of why the decision to terminate a pregnancy should be left to the woman and her medical caregiver.
Well, possibly, but according to right criteria such as ectopic pregancies, for example. We support the taking of life for purposes of self-defense or defending the innocent, for example, but not for just any reason, such as ridding ourselves of an inconvenience or even of a financial burden. Otherwise any birthed person who poses such a problem for us should be considered "fair game" as well.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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but the hair, and nail and bone are not alive. they do not have thoughts and feelings. hair is not aware. yes there is genetic material and there is the instructions to form a body which becomes a person, it is not a person until you have the breath of life and have a soul. Ps 139:16,13 no soul mentioned in either text. just talking about formation. formation does not = life. it is construction.
I just told you why a human cell is not comparable to hair or bones, drop the strawman argument.
No sane person makes the definition of "life" dependent on the "soul", that's ridiculous. Animals have no soul, nor are they self-conscious. Animals still are alive without doubt. Your made-up definition of "life" doesn't withstand any scrutiny.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I just told you why a human cell is not comparable to hair or bones, drop the strawman argument.
No sane person makes the definition of "life" dependent on the "soul", that's ridiculous. Animals have no soul, nor are they self-conscious. Animals still are alive without doubt. Your made-up definition of "life" doesn't withstand any scrutiny.
wow what a demand. your objection is weak. you have not proven, you've simply stated an opinion. Animals do have souls Gen. 1:30. my definition come directly from the scripture: Genesis 2. So swing and a miss. look you have tripped over a big text that you haven't dealt with. so try again.
 
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TedT

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he was not alive when he was dirt/matter. it took God acting on the matter to add something to it. I think this is what happens in the womb.

Perhaps this acting on the flesh is what Jesus was referring to when He said we (implying our spirits) were all sown, not created, into this world (into our bodies): "37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil." in Matt 13.
 
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TedT

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Animals have no soul, nor are they self-conscious.

Hmmm, please consider:

If animals have no soul, not even an animal, ie, lesser soul, then how can they be judged as evil? Trees and stones are never characterized as evil. The soul that sins is the one who dies, Ezek 18:20, and all the animals in the world died in the flood for their evil violence: Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”

And remember, the serpent was characterized as MORE cunning that the other animals and that he was cursed a little more than the other animals were, all of which implies that the animals were sinful and cursed, just not to the extent he was: Gen 3:1, 14. Maybe their death was the death of extinction, not the eternal death in hell prepared for the serpent.
 
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Jamdoc

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not hard to understand, but it did not address the text.

The addressing of it is refuting the idea that Christ did not exist until He was born from Mary was false, because Christ always was.
 
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TedT

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Adam's body was formed first, THEN a soul put in it.
Likewise, I believe that the body is formed first, then it gains a soul/consciousness.

This does not demand that the spirit put into the new body was also newly created since it might have been pre-existing the body then sown into it...
 
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TedT

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the person you knew is gone, if they were in Christ, they're with Christ
...and if they are not in Christ ,ie, they number among the wicked, then they RETURN to Sheol from whence they came, Ps 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol, all the nations who forget God. Check the Hebrew, not the KJV...
 
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Jamdoc

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I just told you why a human cell is not comparable to hair or bones, drop the strawman argument.
No sane person makes the definition of "life" dependent on the "soul", that's ridiculous. Animals have no soul, nor are they self-conscious. Animals still are alive without doubt. Your made-up definition of "life" doesn't withstand any scrutiny.

Animals have souls, it's not the same kind of soul we have but they are aware and self conscious, some animals are intelligent enough to pass the mirror test, I've even seen a cat pass the mirror test (recognizing that it is their own self in the mirror rather than another animal). What animals lack is knowledge of good and evil, and knowledge of God.

WE are the closest they know to their creator and that is intentional. Before the fall, that was our job, our purpose in life, to care for God's creation and be His imagebearers to everything that was created. Because they do not know Him, instead they know us, who bear His image.

After the flood a fear of us was put into them, but every once in awhile you do see wild animals approach humans for help, instinctively knowing that we can help them, and obviously domesticated animals have a relationship of trust with humans, even though we don't deserve it in our fallen state.
But they were created for us to take care of and love. It is itself a means of worshiping God, note that when Adam and Eve were in the garden, they were not commanded to sing praise to the Lord, we were not created to be a choir at least not at first, sometimes I wonder if the plan B after the fall truly was to just make us a choir because some scripture seems to support that and a lot of pastors teach it.. but the original purpose of man was dressing and keeping the garden, including its animals. Obeying God's commands is itself worship, singing and praising isn't the only form of worship.

anyway, sorry for tangent, but while animals do not have an eternal soul, they do have a soul, they are conscious, they can't know Christ, but they can know us.
 
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Jamdoc

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This does not demand that the spirit put into the new body was also newly created since it might have been pre-existing the body then sown into it...

The text does not say a soul was put into the body, the text says life was given to the body and it became a living soul.
That speaks to no pre-existing disembodied soul, we're not intended to exist without a body. that is why death is such an unnatural condition for us.
 
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TedT

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Outside of Jeremiah 1:5 which verses would this be talking about?

Did we see the creation of the physical universe:
Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
It really does read ALL the sons of GOD in the Hebrew though some interpret that as angels for eisegetical reasons...

We are said to be sown, not created, into the world implying a life before the creation of the world.
Matt 13:37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

And where were we, at least the wicked, before being sown into the world?
Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, all the nations who forget God.

3 verse sets out of dozens...is there a theme here?
 
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prodromos

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Gen 2:7, breath of life come after the body is formed, then you become a living soul
Again, it is your arbitrary opinion as to when you consider the body is "formed" in the womb, beside the fact that Adam was unique in the manner of his creation to the rest of humanity.
Adam was created as a mature man before God breathed life into him. John was not a mature man in Elizabeth's womb when he leapt with joy on hearing the voice of Mary, his Lord's mother, so your interpretation does not hold.
 
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Jamdoc

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Did we see the creation of the physical universe:
Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
It really does read ALL the sons of GOD in the Hebrew though some interpret that as angels for eisegetical reasons...

We are said to be sown, not created, into the world implying a life before the creation of the world.
Matt 13:37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

And where were we, at least the wicked, before being sown into the world?
Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, all the nations who forget God.

3 verse sets out of dozens...is there a theme here?

I take sons of God to be angels, or as Michael Heiser puts it, "the divine council" from Psalm 82.
the parable of the sower is not sowing souls, the parable of the sower is sowing the Gospel.

Psalm 9:17 in the KJV has nothing about returning, but rather
17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

If disembodied spirits are what we normally exist as prior to the body, then why have a physical resurrection?

I say it is because we're not meant to exist without a body, it is not our natural state.
To say souls pre-exist before the body is to say the body is not a natural state.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Again, it is your arbitrary opinion as to when you consider the body is "formed" in the womb, beside the fact that Adam was unique in the manner of his creation to the rest of humanity.
Adam was created as a mature man before God breathed life into him. John was not a mature man in Elizabeth's womb when he leapt with joy on hearing the voice of Mary, his Lord's mother, so your interpretation does not hold.
WHEN is when the breath of God enters the body, that is not conception, where exactly is specualtion, heart beat or brainwaves, but by that time it is a person.
 
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