"Life and its building blocks are way too complicated to have evolved." [moved]

[Hieronymus]

Oh look!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26888/

The Structural Similarity of Myosin and Kinesin Indicates a Common Evolutionary Origin​

Rather a common factory.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Cataclysmic floods can do that.

No it can't.

 

[Jimmy D]

Either way, most would have enough sense to realize, once a debate has run it's course, it'll die out.

Why? There will always be a vocal minority, like your good self, who have little understanding of the Earth sciences and even less desire to learn (by your own admission), who proclaim that accepted scientific theories are wrong no matter what evidence is presented. It's easier than confronting your own beliefs.

Christians take your beliefs on evolution no more seriously than you do creation.

I think you'll find that the majority of 'Christians' do accept evolution, can you back up your claim?

I'd expect from someone that would push a lie so ridiculous as evolution.

Evolution is a lie? Do you actually think about these things before you type? Are you actually saying that it's some sort of conspiracy?

Yep, the universe and all that is in it just came to be all by itself over a period of millions of years. Nothing....nothing.... more nothing, then all the sudden!... something!

What is this nonsense? Do you think that anyone says or believes this? If so can you back it up with any evidence?

uck that nothing somehow turned itself into things so complicated, we still don't understand a lot of it. And not only that, but nothing, a bunch of chemicals or whatever they are calling it now days, cannot be easily recreated? I mean if it happened by chance, seems to me it would have to be simple and easily recreated, but, that's a common sense expectation... something not allowed in the equation.

But alas, you can't see the proof that happened

Ofcourse no one can 'prove' that, it's the sort nonsense strawman one would expect from the scientifically ignorant.

or how because it happened so long ago no one was there to witness it, so you should just believe it, everyone else does.

That's the beauty of the scientific method, results can be tested and repeated, no one has to 'just believe' it because everyone else does. If you want to show us how something is wrong (I'm not sure specifically what you arguing about here to be honest) you are free to present your evidence.

Then in your desperation to help us "get there", you bring up some picture of animals that are situated in such a way it somehow proves all that was locked away in time is real? and all because the same so called intelligent scientists that believe it all just happened, says so? Yeah, I'll put my faith in that guy!

See above.

I'd guess 95% or better of the people that buy evolution/all from nothing, never come out of the stage of, "Well, they say it happened and they say they have more evidence every day proving it so I believe it" and all because it gets rid of that annoying, looming Hell and the God that made it so.

Stop saying 'all from nothing' it's making you seem foolish, no one believes that.

You started your post accusing some one of making things up, so this bit seems a bit hypocritical. Spare us your guessing games.

Seriously, is "the sheep accept it", supposed to mean something to us?

And scientists don't take *US* seriously? LM*O! you people are an absolute riot.

What the majority of scientifically uneducated people accept is neither here nor there, why even bring it up?

As for 'scientists' not taking you seriously, I've got news for you, no one does, YECs are a global laughing stock. The day you present some verifiable evidence for your 'beliefs', rather than vacous rhetoric, is the day you'll be taken seriously.

There are plenty of 'Creationist' organizations out there, making money from the ignorant by telling them what they want to hear, and claiming scientific credentials, but where is their research? Why are they not taken seriously? Because they've got nothing.... absolutely nothing.

 

[doubtingmerle]

How many times do I need to tell you...God created the first motor protein.
It's to complicated to have evolved via a random process.

You only need to tell me once, but I haven't been able to get you to do that. You think God created. How did it happen? You won't tell us. Let me guess. You think that the first cells with motor proteins suddenly sprang up out of nothing completely formed. Did I guess correctly? Yes, you would add that God caused it, but one could do the same for evolution. So we are left with alternatives for how cells with this feature came into existence, which I will outline as follows:

1. They sprang up suddenly out of nothing.

1a. God miraculously caused this to happen.
1b. Nature did this on its own​

2. Mutations were naturally selected to give this feature

2a. God miraculously caused this to happen.
2b. Nature did this on its own.
​

Now all your argument here appears to be that #2b is wrong, but you have made no support for #1. In fact, you haven't even told us your answer is #1. Which seems odd to me. If you think my answer is wrong, I would think you would be happy to share the answer you think is right.

Do you have one piece of evidence that says #1 is more likely than #2? I can give you 29 reasons #2 is more likely. ( http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ )

If the cell is too complicated to come into existence by process #2, then why is it also not too complicated to come into existence by process #1? #1 has never been observed to happen, and violates all kinds of physical laws including the law of conservation of matter, for instance.

Personally I think 2b is more likely than 2a, but that is another topic for another thread. For the purposes of this thread, we have here 29 reasons why #2 is more likely.

 

[Hieronymus]

You only need to tell me once, but I haven't been able to get you to do that. You think God created?

There is no plausible /possible alternative.

How did it happen?

Nobody knows.

You won't tell us. Let me guess. You think that the first cells with motor proteins suddenly sprang up out of nothing completely formed. Did I guess correctly?

It is created, it didn't "spring out" of something.

Yes, you would add that God caused it, but one could do the same for evolution.

But why would you?
Seriously, when you acknowledge the facts of living organisms, who in a right mind would ascribe it to natural processes, when you don; t have a stake in naturalism (personally or professionally).

Let's not forget that it is modern naturalistic pseudo rational thinking that is claimed to be scientific truth.
They haven't got too much choice though, since the ToE is the only model within the natural paradigm.

You believe in God.
So why ignore Him in the assessment?

So we are left with alternatives for how cells with this feature came into existence, which I will outline as follows.

1. They sprang up suddenly out of nothing.

1a. God miraculously caused this to happen.
1b. Nature did this on its own​

2. Mutations were naturally selected to give this feature

2a. God miraculously caused this to happen.
2b. Nature did this on its own.

​

Since nature itself is unconscious and unintelligent and has no will of its own, the answer should be simple.
It's common sense.
And God didn't "let it happen", He created it.
As we can see He is a master at nano technology, both as a designer and as a manufacturer.​

Now all your argument here appears to be that #2b is wrong, but you have made no support for #1.

I think we all have shown the facts are in support of special creation.
It's about explanatory power, probability and even possibility.
I don't know why it seems not to register in your mind.
You hold on to naturalistic beliefs for some reason.

 

[Jimmy D]

Seriously, when you acknowledge the facts of living organisms, who in a right mind would ascribe it to natural processes

Errr, everyone who actually works or studies in the field of biology. (Give or take the odd religious fundamentalist, the numbers of which could be counted on one hand).

when you don; t have a stake in naturalism (personally or professionally).

What does that mean? They're all lying so they don't rock the boat or appear to be idiots?

They haven't got too much choice though, since the ToE is the only model within the natural paradigm

Within any paradigm.

I think we all have shown the facts are in support of special creation.
It's about explanatory power, probability and even possibility.

Can you be more specific or is this just one of the inane things fundies say to try to sound sciencey?

 

[doubtingmerle]

It is created, it didn't "spring out" of something.

Get with the program, please. What I listed in my alternative #1 is that it sprang up "out of nothing".

As I have asked multiple times on this thread, and have gotten no answer, when God created, how did he do that? I have heard at least 2 alternatives from Christians for the process God used:
1. Life sprang up out of nothing.
2. Life evolved through mutations and natural selection.

So please drop the straw man of "sprang up out of something", unless you want to add it to the list as a third alternative.

Now will you please tell us if #1 is your preferred alternative, or if you have another process that you think God used.

Seriously, when you acknowledge the facts of living organisms, who in a right mind would ascribe it to natural processes

Me.

And the last I checked, I am in my right mind.

You believe in God.
So why ignore Him in the assessment?

Actually, as I explained in my previous post, I tend to think the answer is 2b, natural evolution.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Atoms make molecules.
Molecules bond together to make amino acids.
Amino acids then chain together and form proteins.
Proteins fold in precise manners and join with other proteins to create specialized structures known as organelle within a cell.
The instructions that allow this to happen is contained within the code of DNA.

Organelle such as what is pictured below are to complicated to have arrived through a process of evolution.

View attachment 181837

In the picture the motor protein is carrying a lipid and walking across a microtubule. You can see it in action in the following 22 second video.

Moments before the motor protein walked across the microtubule, the microtubule wasn't there.
The microtubule grows between point "A" and point "B" which allows the motor protein to travel from point A to point B.

This 21 second video shows this process.

For this process to happen a pretty complicated chemical reactions occurs. You can see a quick 2 min animation of the process in the video below.

The process presented above is to sophisticated and complicated to have arrived by a process containing random chance and natural selection.

It strongly suggest their was a designer who coded the DNA to allow the process to happen.

(posting blind, not having read the rest of the thread yet).



The OP asks you to explain your assertion... But in this post, you are merely repeating it.

It didn't ask you to explain how a modern cell works or what it looks like.

It asked you to explain the assertion that "it could not have evolved".
How did you determine this?

Or is the underlying reason for your statement no more or less then "i don't believe it"?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Common sense..or can you demonstrate otherwise?

"Common sense"... is not a pathway to truth. "Common sense" can only build on what you ALREADY know. Not on what you don't know or don't understand.

"common sense" doesn't inform you that you'll get hurt if you put your hand in the fire, if you don't know what fire is.

And expecting your statement to be accepted "unless they can be shown to be wrong", is a blatant shift of the burden of proof.

 

[DogmaHunter]

You mean out of sight, lost in time, ridiculous explanations of things coming out of nowhere and turning into something more, and where no one could see or prove it did or didn't happen?

Now ain't that convenient...

The evolutionary model makes a whole bunch of predictions that can be tested.

The evolutionary model itself, moreover, is a conclusion drawn from the actual data, instead of a story found in a bronze-age religious book.

 

[DogmaHunter]

My thing about evolution is if it happened why did it stop?

Evolution doesn't stop.

As long as there are living organisms reproducing with variation and competing over limited resources, evolution will continue.

It's literally inevitable.

 

[Hieronymus]

What I listed in my alternative #1 is that it sprang up "out of nothing".

God creating is not the same as springing out of nothing.
1. God is not nothing
2. Being created is not springing out of nothing.
(but okay, let's say that's just semantics)

As I have asked multiple times, and have gotten no answer, when God created, how did he do that?

We have answered that too, at least, i have.
No man knows.
Your question is like "Tell me what God knows."

I have heard at least 2 alternatives from Christians for the process God used:
1. Life sprang up out of nothing.
2. Life evolved through mutations and natural selection.

Then you haven't been paying attention.
The answer is: God created everything, because He is all knowing, omnipresent skilled and has a Will to do it.
No man knows what the sequence of steps might have been, it's beyond our observation and it's beyond the natural.
It is God who made the natural (universe including the laws of nature).

So please drop the straw man of "sprang up out of something", unless you want to add it to the list as a third alternative.

Listen bud, you did not even put special creation as an option in your question.

 

[DogmaHunter]

My guess it the answer that will be presented is, it hasn't stopped, but it'll be another million years before we see more results, of course by that time we'll all be dead and the so called proof will be lost in time again.

You can see the results every day.

Evolution is why flu vaccines always come after the new strains evolved.
Evolution is why anti-biotics slowly, but surely, stop working.
Evolution is why pesticides, no longer kill all insects.
Evolution is why Tibetans don't have health problems living at high altitudes, which is a direct result of a unique gene sequence that only Tibetans have.


And so on and so on.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Why? There will always be a vocal minority, like your good self, who have little understanding of the Earth sciences and even less desire to learn (by your own admission), who proclaim that accepted scientific theories are wrong no matter what evidence is presented. It's easier than confronting your own beliefs.

You'll have to make your point a little better there, was it that debates don't die back, if so I still say that's normal but as I said not sure if that's happening as of yet, or was it that you have some actual evidence to bring to the table? If so, be happy to take a look at it. You really need to stop the talk and walk the walk with some real evidence. And stop pretending people are stupid because they aren't dumbed down as some and believe what some choose to believe no matter how ridiculous.

I think you'll find that the majority of 'Christians' do accept evolution, can you back up your claim?

Bring your Christians over here and we can go through the tedious task of determining as best we can if they are Christians or not and then move on to answering your question. That or settle with the fact I didn't say all and your question was silly and sounded like a desperate way to try making a dig.

Evolution is a lie? Do you actually think about these things before you type? Are you actually saying that it's some sort of conspiracy?

I said lie, you heard it right the first time. If you want to start claiming the, he's crazy with all his talk of conspiracy, it just makes you look even more desperate. Your just making things up now, and just kinda putting the thought out there, right? Yep...definitely a desperate move to get some traction, not to mention amusing to watch.

What is this nonsense? Do you think that anyone says or believes this? If so can you back it up with any evidence?

You tell me? it's essentially exactly that, nonsense and the only explanation some have when they throw God out of the picture and can offer no other. So no, I don;t believe the nonsense as in "from nothing" but I do believe what you are calling the nonsense that I believe they believe that nonsense. I guess you are claiming they have a better explanation? Why don't you tell me what that explanation is? Back up what? That they have no other explanation? Again, tell me what that explanation is and I'll back it up, otherwise, it's already backed up.

Ofcourse no one can 'prove' that, it's the sort nonsense strawman one would expect from the scientifically ignorant.

Ignoring that and just buying into the whole ridiculous thing willy nilly because some one said it's true, would be ignorant.

That's the beauty of the scientific method, results can be tested and repeated, no one has to 'just believe' it because everyone else does. If you want to show us how something is wrong (I'm not sure specifically what you arguing about here to be honest) you are free to present your evidence.

Present your evidence then, and we'll examine it for what's wrong. Before you get started, so we're clear, I'm claiming the whole evolution/something from nothing thing ridiculous.

Stop saying 'all from nothing' it's making you seem foolish, no one believes that.

A prior post in this reply addressed that...and I'll stop when you prove otherwise.

You started your post accusing some one of making things up, so this bit seems a bit hypocritical. Spare us your guessing games.

I asked him if he was making it up, that would not be an accusation or a guess. spare me your unfounded comments that just waste our time. You got no point there because, well, you made it up...now THAT'S and accusation or even beyond that, straight up fact.

What the majority of scientifically uneducated people accept is neither here nor there, why even bring it up?

Are you kidding me? for one reason, didn;t you just bring up what the majority of Christians believe evolution? Why is that stat more important than this one? or more necessary to bring up. Also, I bring it up because your side brings up the general fact constantly. Hard to believe you even said that. Talk about about not thinking before you post.

As for 'scientists' not taking you seriously, I've got news for you, no one does, YECs are a global laughing stock. The day you present some verifiable evidence for your 'beliefs', rather than vacous rhetoric, is the day you'll be taken seriously.

And them a laughing stock to me and others, but I made that clear with what you are replying to and do as often as possible here, so nothing new there. And still waiting for any verifiable evidence from your side as well, thus far all I've seen is junk that quickly falls apart as being any proof whatsoever. But you've been given the chance to have a shot at it...I'll be waiting.

There are plenty of 'Creationist' organizations out there, making money from the ignorant by telling them what they want to hear, and claiming scientific credentials, but where is their research? Why are they not taken seriously? Because they've got nothing.... absolutely nothing.

Do you really want to go there? lol. The opposite end of that is likely much much worse. Prove it?...prove your comment.

 

[doubtingmerle]

God creating is not the same as springing out of nothing.

Then what is it like? Some people say that God created through a process of evolution. Do you not agree with them? If not, what was the process like?

Let's suppose that I existed in 4004 BC (or whenever it is that you think the first zebra was created). Suppose I know exactly when and where it will occur, so I pull up my soccer chair, beer in hand, and I sit down to watch the first zebra come into existence. Now what do I see? Does the zebra not suddenly spring up out of nothing? Does it not slowly evolve over thousands of years? If you think it was neither of these, how do you think it happened?

The answer is: God created everything, because He is all knowing, omnipresent skilled and has a Will to do it.
No man knows what the sequence of steps might have been, it's beyond our observation and it's beyond the natural.

If you don't know the process, how do you know it wasn't by evolution? Alternatively, how do you know it wasn't that the first zebra sprang up from nothing? How can you be so insistent on what the process was not, but have no idea what the process actually was?

 

[TheQuietRiot]

Seems to be? You wouldn't happen to be just making that up would you?

Either way, most would have enough sense to realize, once a debate has run it's course, it'll die out. Christians take your beliefs on evolution no more seriously than you do creation. And to indicate debates are dying out, if that is even the case, solely due to scientist not taking them seriously is just a one sided lie, something you made up on the spot, and just what I'd expect from someone that would push a lie so ridiculous as evolution.

Yep, the universe and all that is in it just came to be all by itself over a period of millions of years. Nothing....nothing.... more nothing, then all the sudden!... something! What a strike of luck for mankind! Luck that nothing somehow turned itself into things so complicated, we still don't understand a lot of it. And not only that, but nothing, a bunch of chemicals or whatever they are calling it now days, cannot be easily recreated? I mean if it happened by chance, seems to me it would have to be simple and easily recreated, but, that's a common sense expectation... something not allowed in the equation.

But alas, you can't see the proof that happened or how because it happened so long ago no one was there to witness it, so you should just believe it, everyone else does. Also it's just not reasonable for others to expect proof due to the circumstances. Do y'all really buy that nonsense?

Then in your desperation to help us "get there", you bring up some picture of animals that are situated in such a way it somehow proves all that was locked away in time is real? and all because the same so called intelligent scientists that believe it all just happened, says so? Yeah, I'll put my faith in that guy! And what's even worse, the masses bite...hook line and sinker, and pretty much without question....amazing. I'd guess 95% or better of the people that buy evolution/all from nothing, never come out of the stage of, "Well, they say it happened and they say they have more evidence every day proving it so I believe it" and all because it gets rid of that annoying, looming Hell and the God that made it so. And then you people have the nerve to say "it's accepted by so many, what's your problem?" Seriously, is "the sheep accept it", supposed to mean something to us?

And scientists don't take *US* seriously? LM*O! you people are an absolute riot.

I'm not here to try to convince you, I wouldn't even bother to try. If others are willing and have the time/patience to try and educate you that is up to them. Nor do I feel the need to justify my own beliefs to you.

I just like to pop by every now and then to remind you guys that the type of nonsense creationism that you spout is taken as seriously as the existence of leprechauns by scientists. Just in case you forget

 

[AV1611VET]

I just like to pop by every now and then to remind you guys that the type of nonsense creationism that you spout is taken as seriously as the existence of leprechauns by scientists.

Would this be the same science that takes as seriously the existence of God as it does Leprechauns?

 

[Jimmy D]

You'll have to make your point a little better there, was it that debates don't die back, if so I still say that's normal but as I said not sure if that's happening as of yet, or was it that you have some actual evidence to bring to the table? If so, be happy to take a look at it. You really need to stop the talk and walk the walk with some real evidence. And stop pretending people are stupid because they aren't dumbed down as some and believe what some choose to believe no matter how ridiculous.



Bring your Christians over here and we can go through the tedious task of determining as best we can if they are Christians or not and then move on to answering your question. That or settle with the fact I didn't say all and your question was silly and sounded like a desperate way to try making a dig.



I said lie, you heard it right the first time. If you want to start claiming the, he's crazy with all his talk of conspiracy, it just makes you look even more desperate. Your just making things up now, and just kinda putting the thought out there, right? Yep...definitely a desperate move to get some traction, not to mention amusing to watch.



You tell me? it's essentially exactly that, nonsense and the only explanation some have when they throw God out of the picture and can offer no other. So no, I don;t believe the nonsense as in "from nothing" but I do believe what you are calling the nonsense that I believe they believe that nonsense. I guess you are claiming they have a better explanation? Why don't you tell me what that explanation is? Back up what? That they have no other explanation? Again, tell me what that explanation is and I'll back it up, otherwise, it's already backed up.



Ignoring that and just buying into the whole ridiculous thing willy nilly because some one said it's true, would be ignorant.



Present your evidence then, and we'll examine it for what's wrong. Before you get started, so we're clear, I'm claiming the whole evolution/something from nothing thing ridiculous.



A prior post in this reply addressed that...and I'll stop when you prove otherwise.



I asked him if he was making it up, that would not be an accusation or a guess. spare me your unfounded comments that just waste our time. You got no point there because, well, you made it up...now THAT'S and accusation or even beyond that, straight up fact.



Are you kidding me? for one reason, didn;t you just bring up what the majority of Christians believe evolution? Why is that stat more important than this one? or more necessary to bring up. Also, I bring it up because your side brings up the general fact constantly. Hard to believe you even said that. Talk about about not thinking before you post.



And them a laughing stock to me and others, but I made that clear with what you are replying to and do as often as possible here, so nothing new there. And still waiting for any verifiable evidence from your side as well, thus far all I've seen is junk that quickly falls apart as being any proof whatsoever. But you've been given the chance to have a shot at it...I'll be waiting.



Do you really want to go there? lol. The opposite end of that is likely much much worse. Prove it?...prove your comment.

I see you haven't changed since our last 'debate'.....

I already told you all, I'm not going to get waist deep into trying to disprove silly fairy tales any more than you would try to disprove a fairy tale if I told you it was real, nor am I going to get a degree in this so I can understand bee ess, over my head nonsense so I can draw the same conclusion as with that I do understand.

I'm not going to waste my time with going back and forth with you, you revel in your refusal to learn about the facts of biology whilst proclaiming how wrong they are. You might not see anything wrong with this but I'm sure everyone else can.

If you've actually got a specific scientific argument against evolution please go ahead, otherwise we can assume that you're talking out of your hat and ignore your inflammatory rhetoric.

 

[Hieronymus]

Then what is it like? Some people say that God created through a process of evolution.

They feel obliged to marry God with naturalism.
I don't and i wonder why anyone would.

Do you not agree with them?

I do not agree with them.
There is no evidence for natural causes doing that by themselves..

If not, what was the process like?

Why are you asking that question again?
The only thing that is revealed by God is Genesis and some references in Scripture.
He created man from the dust of the earth in his likeness / image, and He formed Eve form a rib of Adam.

The point you seem not to adress is that natural processes just don't have the explanatory power.
You expect miracles form natural processes and God didn't do a thing, because evolution models and beliefs have no God in them.
So why, as a theist, would you subscribe to atheistic ideas?
Because they're loud?

 

[Hieronymus]

I'm not here to try to convince you, I wouldn't even bother to try. If others are willing and have the time/patience to try and educate you that is up to them.

Educate? You mean brainwash.