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The evidence for evolution for Kenny'sID thread

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Jimmy D

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Lets take post 492 for example and how Dogma goes on about how we can prove common ancestory. Go through all of that and tell me how that proves evolution in the least.

So, we can do all those things, and yes I read it all....nothing new or unbelievable at all there, but the assumption that has anything to do with creationism is just that, there is no connection at all. But I would be curious what goes on upstairs to where y'all think that in any way supports evolution.

You want me to address this stuff when I just don't see anything in what you present TO address. lol. Where's the connection?

Post 492 is addressing the validity of DNA as evidence. Why not look at the evidence he's posted on this page.....

Creationists have claimed that Macroevolution is not testable. They couldn't be farther from the truth. Here is the test for macroevolution as described clear back in 1965 before we had any real DNA sequence data:

"It will be determined to what extent the phylogenetic tree, as derived from molecular data in complete independence from the results of organismal biology, coincides with the phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of organismal biology. If the two phylogenetic trees are mostly in agreement with respect to the topology of branching, the best available single proof of the reality of macro-evolution would be furnished. Indeed, only the theory of evolution, combined with the realization that events at any supramolecular level are consistent with molecular events, could reasonably account for such a congruence between lines of evidence obtained independently, namely amino acid sequences of homologous polypeptide chains on the one hand, and the finds of organismal taxonomy and paleontology on the other hand. Besides offering an intellectual satisfaction to some, the advertising of such evidence would of course amount to beating a dead horse. Some beating of dead horses may be ethical, when here and there they display unexpected twitches that look like life."

Emile Zuckerkandl and Linus Pauling, discussing the possibility of the twin nested hierarchy before the first molecular phylogenies had been made.
(1965) "Evolutionary Divergence and Convergence in Proteins." in Evolving Genes and Proteins, p. 101.
In short, it was predicted 50 years ago that there should be a match between independent DNA based trees and morphological trees.

So does macroevolution pass that test? Yep, sure does:

"So, how well do phylogenetic trees from morphological studies match the trees made from independent molecular studies? There are over 10^38 different possible ways to arrange the 30 major taxa represented in Figure 1 into a phylogenetic tree . . . In spite of these odds, the relationships given in Figure 1, as determined from morphological characters, are completely congruent with the relationships determined independently from cytochrome c molecular studies . . . Speaking quantitatively, independent morphological and molecular measurements such as these have determined the standard phylogenetic tree, as shown in Figure 1, to better than 38 decimal places. This phenomenal corroboration of universal common descent is referred to as the "twin nested hierarchy". This term is something of a misnomer, however, since there are in reality multiple nested hierarchies, independently determined from many sources of data."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#independent_convergence
For 30 groups there are 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 possible ways to organize them into a tree. There is just 1 tree out of those billions and billions of possible trees that is a perfect match to the predictions made the theory of macroevolution. We see that exact tree.

That is proof beyond any reasonable doubt.

Where are the assumptions you claimed are there? Please be specific, merely throwing the word 'assumptions' around as if it's some magical rebuttal only demonstrates that you haven't actually got a specific argument.

Do you understand why the phyolgenetic trees discussed by Loudmouth are 'proof' of the TOE? There is no shame in it if you don't, unless of course you are make pronouncements about how it isn't valid whilst being ignorant of what it actually means. That would be pretty foolish wouldn't it?
 
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florida2

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You havn't been much help up to now...why would I bother?

Charming. You haven't asked for any help despite my offers.

I'm very willing to help if you let me know any questions you have or evidence you have a problem with:)


They just don't understand? Classic.

Sorry, but it seems a fairly accurate description of your posts. You don't understand what a scientific theory is, for a start, which is kinda important. Again, let me know if I can help. :)
 
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Kenny'sID

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Post 492 is addressing the validity of DNA as evidence.

Evidence of what? How is the DNA evidence of evolution.

Where are the assumptions you claimed are there? Please be specific, merely throwing the word 'assumptions' around as if it's some magical rebuttal only demonstrates that you haven't actually got a specific argument.

You're going to have to wake up, I commented on that. Before we move on, show me that "evidence of what" or I will assume it is an assumption, and that you are making an assumption as well...get it? Try to stick with me here, it isn't that complicated.

You want me to buy what you say dogma meant just because you said it, then quickly jump to something else...slow down and let me make my point. On the other hand, if this it the way it appears and you just aren't going to see my point, don't waste my time. I already told you all, I'm not going to get waist deep into trying to disprove silly fairy tales any more than you would try to disprove a fairy tale if I told you it was real, nor am I going to get a degree in this so I can understand bee ess, over my head nonsense so I can draw the same conclusion as with that I do understand. And before you get off on... "well he doesn't understand evolution or is not smart enough to get it", whatever makes you feel you win is fine with me, but it's just one more delusion you are creating for yourselves. I understand enough but use whatever you feel you need to.

In spite of my telling you I'm not wasting my time in getting to deep into nonsense, I gave you that example nonetheless, now address it....evidence of what? Show me YOUR "specifics".
 
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Kenny'sID

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I'm very willing to help if you let me know any questions you have or evidence you have a problem with:)

You have shown zero evidence to have a problem with.

And If you have any questions about delusion, the belief in Goldie Locks and the like, I'll be happy to try to help you as well. And we can move straight to that if you like...it's a much more a serious/pressing issue than evolution :)

Join right in, Dude. Read the thread, keep an eye open...there is a pending question right under your nose. :)
 
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Jimmy D

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You want me to buy what you say dogma meant just because you said it

No I don't, however, you have failed to show he was wrong.

slow down and let me make my point.

Please do, I await your incisive response.

I already told you all, I'm not going to get waist deep into trying to disprove silly fairy tales any more than you would try to disprove a fairy tale if I told you it was real,

So why are you asking "Evidence of what? How is the DNA evidence of evolution." if you aren't prepared to deal with the specifics?

nor am I going to get a degree in this so I can understand bee ess, over my head nonsense so I can draw the same conclusion as with that I do understand. And before you get off on... "well he doesn't understand evolution or is not smart enough to get it",

Good one, I never said that you aren't smart enough to get, but you as you said you don't understand it, I don't understand a lot of it myself but I wouldn't have the hubris to dismiss what scientists who do understand it are telling me.

whatever makes you feel you win is fine with me

I don't feel I've won anything, there is no argument to win. If deluded fundamentalists want to deny reality good luck to them, they aren't making me look foolish.

n spite of my telling you I'm not wasting my time in getting to deep into nonsense, I gave you that example nonetheless, now address it....evidence of what? Show me YOUR "specifics".

LOL, you've spurned the chance to discuss specific evidence at every opportunity, not once have you offered anything specific or relevant as a rebuttal (saying "assumptions" is no kind of argument).

Bye.
 
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Kenny'sID

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No I don't, however, you have failed to show he was wrong.

He was beyond wrong, there is nothing even there to show wrong or right. No evidence no nothing. But I already made that clear enough, just as you have made it clear you don't see anything there either.

It's as I suspected, you are just going to pretend not to see my point...not to see the assumptions.

Good one, I never said that you aren't smart enough to get,

No, you didn't. It's been alluded to a few times and the comment was more general to anyone in case they wanted to come back with that...not just you.
 
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Jimmy D

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It's as I suspected, you are just going to pretend not to see my point...not to see the assumptions.

I honestly cannot see any assumptions, don't accuse me of lying. It has been quite obvious over the last 30 or so pages that you are going to dismiss any evidence out of hand, regardless of what it is. Can I ask is there anything that would make you reconsider your views on the TOE / creation?
 
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Loudmouth

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Lets take post 492 for example and how Dogma goes on about how we can prove common ancestory. Go through all of that and tell me how that proves evolution in the least.

You tell me what the assumptions are. You claimed there are assumptions, so show us what they are.

So, we can do all those things, and yes I read it all....nothing new or unbelievable at all there, but the assumption that has anything to do with creationism is just that, there is no connection at all. But I would be curious what goes on upstairs to where y'all think that in any way supports evolution.

Where is that assumption ever made?

You want me to address this stuff when I just don't see anything in what you present TO address. lol. Where's the connection?

Then explain what the assumptions are, and how it doesn't support evolution.
 
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Loudmouth

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He was beyond wrong, there is nothing even there to show wrong or right.

Which is it? Are the posts wrong, or is there nothing to show it being right or wrong?

Please explain how the facts that were presented don't support evolution.

It's as I suspected, you are just going to pretend not to see my point...not to see the assumptions.

Even you can't point out the assumptions, and you haven't even tried to make a point.
 
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Loudmouth

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Evidence of what? How is the DNA evidence of evolution.

How is it not? You are the one claiming it isn't evidence. Either admit you don't understand it, or show us how it isn't evidence.

You're going to have to wake up, I commented on that. Before we move on, show me that "evidence of what" or I will assume it is an assumption,

My irony meter just blew up. It appears you are the one using assumptions, not us.

I already told you all, I'm not going to get waist deep into trying to disprove silly fairy tales any more than you would try to disprove a fairy tale if I told you it was real, nor am I going to get a degree in this so I can understand bee ess, over my head nonsense so I can draw the same conclusion as with that I do understand.

Now you are assuming it is a fairy tale. You are, again, the one using assumptions. You refuse to even address the evidence that has been presented.
 
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Lets take post 492 for example and how Dogma goes on about how we can prove common ancestory.
Some igorance about science, Kenny'sID. This is science.
Post 492 states the obvious - we can take your DNA and the DNA of your siblings and determine that you shared parents (a "common ancestry"). We can do the same for humans and apes and show that we and apes share common ancestry. The common ancestry derived from DNA matches common ancestry derived from other sources such as the fossil record.

Are you ignoring: Not correct, Kenny'sID: It is the physical evidence for evolution that says that evolution happens.
 
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Kenny'sID

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You tell me what the assumptions are.

You tell me what the evidence is. Go back to that specific post by Dogma and tell me how any of it is relevant.

Didn't I already request that? The rest of your posts? Let's deal with one thing at a time here, I'm not even going to read them if your going to bounce all over the place when you don't have any sensible, or any reply at all to what I asked. Y'all wanted to address it now address it. As I said, there was just nothing there to even consider evidence or that had to do with anything, just a bunch of things about telling who our ancestors are, what does that prove? there are a few ways to do that, who cares?

I'm not going to go back and show you my questions again, you find them and answer, or I'm just going to stop taking any of you seriously. You want to yammer on with what you call evidence and when I point out nothing is there, I get nothing.

When I stop answering here, you are going to whine about my copping out, but what do you expect when you cop out?

Geez, people.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Science never "proves" anything

Wonderful. :(

Post 492 states the obvious - we can take your DNA and the DNA of your siblings and determine that you shared parents (a "common ancestry"). We can do the same for humans and apes and show that we and apes share common ancestry. The common ancestry derived from DNA matches common ancestry derived from other sources such as the fossil record.

So what? So we share DNA?

WT* it the connection?

There is none, it's all in your head, and I mean that in all sincerity...stop, look at the signs...look what happens when I ask for the connections and how any of that means anything. It's the same old question Dogma went goofy on when I asked what was there on the thread that led to this one...when will you all get it?

You have something in your minds, but you won't spit it out because you realize there really is nothing. Again, you have deluded yourself. Wow, I wish I could say that more nicely, and maybe you'd get it but it won't matter, you allowed this to happen to yourselves and now you can't back out OR back it up, so we go on day after day getting nowhere. Why? because you have nowhere for us to go.
 
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Go back to that specific post by Dogma and tell me how any of it is relevant.
Are you are denying that a child and their siblings have common ancestors called parents, Kenny'sID?
If not then the post is relevant to the fact that DNA shows common ancestry. It is a trivial example since in the context of evolution "common ancestry" is common descent, i.e. "sibling" species not individuals.
Read 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution The Scientific Case for Common Descent for lots more evidence.
 
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bhsmte

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You tell me what the evidence is. Go back to that specific post by Dogma and tell me how any of it is relevant.

Didn't I already request that? The rest of your posts? Let's deal with one thing at a time here, I'm not even going to read them if your going to bounce all over the place when you don't have any sensible, or any reply at all to what I asked. Y'all wanted to address it now address it. As I said, there was just nothing there to even consider evidence or that had to do with anything, just a bunch of things about telling who our ancestors are, what does that prove? there are a few ways to do that, who cares?

I'm not going to go back and show you my questions again, you find them and answer, or I'm just going to stop taking any of you seriously. You want to yammer on with what you call evidence and when I point out nothing is there, I get nothing.

When I stop answering here, you are going to whine about my copping out, but what do you expect when you cop out?

Geez, people.

Do you ever answer questions?
 
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Wonderful.
The point is that anyone who know about science knows that it works using evidence, not proof as in mathematics.

So we share DNA?
So the DNA in siblings shows that the siblings have a common ancestor - which is a trivial case of common ancestry :eek:!

The fossil record shows common descent between apes and humans. Just the similarity of DNA shows common descent between apes and humans. The ancestry that is derived from these 2 independent lines of evidence agrees. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Learn about 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution The Scientific Case for Common Descent
 
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A part of science that Kenny'sID may not know about is that a scientific a theory should make testable, falsifiable predictions. Evidence for that theory is then the predictions being tested and passing. For example gravitational waves are predicted from the merger of massive bodies in GR, we went looking for those gravitational waves and have detected them two times so far.

Likewise common decent makes testable, falsifiable predictions such as Prediction 2.6: Past biogeography
Example 1: marsupials
As one example, we conclude that fossils of the hypothetical common ancestors of South American marsupials and Australian marsupials should be found dating from before these two landmasses separated.

Confirmation:
Consequently, we find the earliest marsupial fossils (e.g., Alphadon) from the Late Cretaceous, when South America, Antarctica, and Australia were still connected. Additionally, the earliest ancestors of modern marsupials are actually found on North America. The obvious paleontological deduction is that extinct marsupials fossil organisms should be found on South America and Antarctica, since marsupials must have traversed these continents to reach their present day location in Australia. Interestingly, we have found marsupial fossils on both South America and on Antarctica. This is an astounding macroevolutionary confirmation, given that no marsupials live on Antarctica now (Woodburne and Case 1996).

Potential Falsification:
We confidently predict that fossils of recently evolved animals like apes and elephants should never be found on South America, Antarctica, or Australia (excepting, of course, the apes that travel by boat).
 
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Kenny'sID

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Are you are denying that a child and their siblings have common ancestors called parents, Kenny'sID?
If not then the post is relevant to the fact that DNA shows common ancestry. It is a trivial example since in the context of evolution "common ancestry" is common descent, i.e. "sibling" species not individuals.

No, why would I deny that?

Common knowledge, people are related. Dna is shared. Still no connection.

You are actually telling me that because we have ancestors, that backs up evolution?

No wonder you wouldn't spit it out. But at least you had the nerve to give it a shot.
 
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46AND2

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No, why would I deny that?

Common knowledge, people are related. Dna is shared. Still no connection.

You are actually telling me that because we have ancestors, that backs up evolution?

No wonder you wouldn't spit it out. But at least you had the nerve to give it a shot.

No. Let's say scientists are given 10 DNA samples, blind. They are told that there may or may not be related persons among the samples.

Let's also say that you and I know that there are two samples in those 10 which belong to a grandson and grandfather, and the rest are not closely related.

Do you think that scientists can pick out those two samples which are grandfather and grandson from among the ten?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
 
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