Liberal Judaism?

[ChavaK]

oops, double post.

 

[Chaplain David]

Yeah it is a tough situation.....I really wish people would think about having kids before they intermarry. They may think one thing (like I don't care if the kid is raised Jewish) but have a big change of heart once they start a family. And that can lead to all kinds of stress and put a lot of pressure on the kid.

And true the kid can convert later....but it's hard on them to one day discover they really aren't Jewish and that they will have to convert.

Forgive me if I sound ignorant about this. I am. Am I correct in assuming that it is the mother who has to be Jewish in order for them to convert? Or can they do it vice versa (father Jewish, mother gentile)?

I was from a mixed home, father Catholic and mother Baptist. They tried to compromise by choosing a denomination that embodied some of both denominations but none did. So we ended up not being a part of any denomination. Later in life I chose a Baptist church but looking back I would rather have grown up in a church and been a part of something instead of waiting half my life and having to find it on my own. I remember what few times we did go to church together when I was younger. I really enjoyed it but then it dropped off and we all went our separate ways.

I wish they could have decided, Catholic or Protestant and then done that. It would have been better for us. It was my parents job to bring us up in the Lord and they didn't do that. I look back on some of the trouble I got in and problems that I had. I cannot help but think that had I been involved in church that I would not have had to go through some of the trouble and heartache that I did.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Of course that perception is wrong....and even if not, they throw in the towel?

My understanding is that children of intermarriages are seldom (something like 25%) raised Jewish....and of those most of them don't have a strong Jewish identity and many of them intermarry.

Part of me often wonders how many would handle others from the scriptures if they existed today, such as Esther. FOr she was married to a Persian King, even though she was a devout (abeit hidden/Crypto) Jew (Esther 2, Esther 8-9, etc). An historical essay said that King Xerxes is later killed by one of his own men (murdered) a couple of years after everything went down with Esther's story...but it did not say if they'd had children or what they were named.

As another said best:

Xerxes was killed in fall of 465 B.C. by Artabanus (his counseler) who also killed the oldest son (this was the son of Vashti). He then proclaimed himself king and was killed by Artaxerxes 1 several months later in hand to hand combat. Artaxerxes 1 was between 10 and 12 years old depending on the reference you check. This was quite a feat for a child that young but remember he was trained in combat since he was old enough to walk. Artaxerxes 1 then took the throne as the rightful king.

Esther the queen mother is still alive at this time. Now if Artaxerxes 1 is only 12 years old then he had to have been born in 477 B.C. This was the year following Esther becoming queen. So Esther was the mother of Artaxerxes 1 making him half Jewish. Now we see why he would have a Jew as a cup bearer (Nehemiah 1 )r. Not because it was a conquered people but because he was a Jew himself. In addition it was Artaxerxes 1 that in the 20th year of his reign (444 B.C.) issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem which started the countdown to the coming of Christ, as prophesied by Daniel (Daniel 9:25) and ending on the 10th of Nisan 33 A.D. when Christ rode to the temple and was rejected by the Jews (he was cut off or set aside for the Passover) to be crucified. The prophecy by God was fulfilled to the very day in its accuracy. I hope this helps your understanding and answers your question.


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Of course, what the man noted is not something that others feel could be verified 100%..but it's something to consider.

To me, when she would have had kids with the king, would the children of that marriage not be considered Jewish on account of the father? Or would they have been raised by Esther as Jews and seen as such? There was actually a book I had investigated at one point entitled Esther's Children: A Portrait of Iranian Jews (more shared here ) and what life was like for the Jewish people in Babylon (modern Iran) and what often happened with them when they were either involved in Crypto-Jewish lifestyle or intemarrying with them while still trying to keep their Jewish culture.....and it really made me think on how many of those within the scriptures may disagree with some of the practices that are done today when it comes to mixed families.

 

[ChavaK]

I am. Am I correct in assuming that it is the mother who has to be Jewish in order for them to convert? Or can they do it vice versa (father Jewish, mother gentile)?

If the mother is Jewish, the kids are too and there is no need for them to convert. If the mother is Gentile, the kids would need to convert.

I was from a mixed home, father Catholic and mother Baptist. They tried to compromise by choosing a denomination that embodied some of both denominations but none did. So we ended up not being a part of any denomination.

I've heard that from others who are a product of a mixed marriage...by trying to blend two faiths (which is impossible to do) they end up being nothing. To make matters worse, sometimes the parents let the kid choose which faith they want. Which is unfair to the child, because by
choosing one faith he is sure to hurt the parent of the other faith. It puts an unfair stress on the kid as he doesn't want to hurt either parent.

]

 

[Chaplain David]

...To make matters worse, sometimes the parents let the kid choose which faith they want. Which is unfair to the child, because by
choosing one faith he is sure to hurt the parent of the other faith. It puts an unfair stress on the kid as he doesn't want to hurt either parent.

]

Very true.

 

[xDenax]

I personally don't see how a Jew and a Christian could stand to be married to each other. That probably sounds more awful than I intended. I just know I couldn't do it. My husband isn't Jewish but he's an atheist, so I don't have to tolerate any other religion in my home. He shows an interest in Judaism but I don't think he'll convert. Though, you never know I guess.

If he were a Christian it would drive me insane. There is no way we could raise children together.

 

[ProScribe]

I personally don't see how a Jew and a Christian could stand to be married to each other. That probably sounds more awful than I intended. I just know I couldn't do it. My husband isn't Jewish but he's an atheist, so I don't have to tolerate any other religion in my home. He shows an interest in Judaism but I don't think he'll convert. Though, you never know I guess.

If he were a Christian it would drive me insane. There is no way we could raise children together.

If you have anti-Christian bias; don't forget about the Judeo-Christian worldview that has been supportive of Israel as a political state.

 

[Marie Lynn]

If you have anti-Christian bias; don't forget about the Judeo-Christian worldview that has been supportive of Israel as a political state.

While I agree that politically speaking the Judeo-Christian viewpoint of its support for Israel is a good thing, a marriage is quite different.
With a marriage how would it be possible to resonate the two and raise children without totally confusing them? One would say you do not need Jesus/Yeshua to be saved and the other would insist there is no other way. These are two very different things, politics and marriage don't you think?

 

[yonah_mishael]

If you have anti-Christian bias; don't forget about the Judeo-Christian worldview that has been supportive of Israel as a political state.

Is it necessarily anti-Christian bias? If her husband were a Muslim, they would have the same problem. It's two religions that both assert themselves as true, and that makes it impossible to combine them in one family. It's got nothing to do with being anti-Christian.

 

[Chaplain David]

While I agree that politically speaking the Judeo-Christian viewpoint of its support for Israel is a good thing, a marriage is quite different.
With a marriage how would it be possible to resonate the two and raise children without totally confusing them? One would say you do not need Jesus/Yeshua to be saved and the other would insist there is no other way. These are two very different things, politics and marriage don't you think?

There would certainly have to be a certain amount of give or take. Difficult, quite possibly. Impossible, I don't think so. But as with any marriage it would seem too be something that should be sorted out before marriage occurs. Sometimes newly in love people who have courted or dated think that problems will just naturally sort themselves out because they're in love. But some things like religion I think should be looked at very closely. Why set oneself up to fail. Yet, when you're in love, we sometimes overlook just about everything except for that. How many times have you heard, "I knew he or she was like that (being in love and because of that everything will work out). Or we think things will get better over time even when dealing with serious problems like substance or other kinds of abuse. Then later reality sets in.

 

[Marie Lynn]

There would certainly have to be a certain amount of give or take. Difficult, quite possibly. Impossible, I don't think so. But as with any marriage it would seem too be something that should be sorted out before marriage occurs. Sometimes newly in love people who have courted or dated think that problems will just naturally sort themselves out because they're in love. But some things like religion I think should be looked at very closely. Why set oneself up to fail. Yet, when you're in love, we sometimes overlook just about everything except for that. How many times have you heard, "I knew he or she was like that (being in love and because of that everything will work out). Or we think things will get better over time even when dealing with serious problems like substance or other kinds of abuse. Then later reality sets in.

Agreed.

 

[Marie Lynn]

There would certainly have to be a certain amount of give or take. Difficult, quite possibly. Impossible, I don't think so. .

Hello Sacerdote,
While I agree with the rest of your post on how couples may make impetuous decisions while being in love, i.e. (overlooking religious differences when they should not), which can often end up in divorce on account of how to raise the children, I do not see how a marriage would survive with two religiously determined couples, one coming from a Jewish perspective and another from a Christian theologically, and not have it be an impossible situation.
How would you suggest this, (and this is no easy question) not be an impossible situation?
Both coming from an opposite perspective of who Yeshua is and attempting to pass this on to the children without tearing up the marriage in the process?

 

[ProScribe]

Is it necessarily anti-Christian bias? If her husband were a Muslim, they would have the same problem. It's two religions that both assert themselves as true, and that makes it impossible to combine them in one family. It's got nothing to do with being anti-Christian.

I understand your point. G_d bless

 

[xDenax]

While I agree that politically speaking the Judeo-Christian viewpoint of its support for Israel is a good thing, a marriage is quite different.
With a marriage how would it be possible to resonate the two and raise children without totally confusing them? One would say you do not need Jesus/Yeshua to be saved and the other would insist there is no other way. These are two very different things, politics and marriage don't you think?

Exactly. I have no idea how people make it work unless one or both of them doesn't really care.

 

[ChavaK]

Exactly. I have no idea how people make it work unless one or both of them doesn't really care.

One thing that can
happen is one or both don't think they care about their beliefs.....until they
have a family. Then every thing can change.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

One thing that can
happen is one or both don't think they care about their beliefs.....until they
have a family. Then every thing can change.

Sometimes, there does come points where beliefs that couples may hold central are discussed...and they agree to be honest in their views with the children/let them decide rather than forcing the kids to take sides. Be it in the religious realm or in politics..

 

[bibledoctor]

I found this thread and dug it up.

 

[bibledoctor]

I'm glad the OP opened up this subject.
Would someone be so kind to explain this to me? What are the differences between the Chasidim and Orthodox Judaism, and between the Orthodox and the MO? Thanks, confused.

Chassidistic is mystical while Orthodox is literal.