Levels of EvC belief

[AV1611VET]

Funny thing about the raisin bread is that I am pretty sure that if someone walked up to you and claimed that god made a loaf of raisin bread and provided nothing but a story about it and an unremarkable loaf of bread to you that you wouldn't believe them.

If God did it, and I don't believe it, I'm wrong.

If God did it, and I believe it, I'm right.

If God didn't do it, and I think He did, I'm wrong.

I God didn't do it, and I don't think He did, I'm right.

Can it be any simpler than that?

 

[PsychoSarah]

If God did it, and I don't believe it, I'm wrong.

If God did it, and I believe it, I'm right.

If God didn't do it, and I think He did, I'm wrong.

I God didn't do it, and I don't think He did, I'm right.

Can it be any simpler than that?

Wasn't my point. My point was, if there is nothing about the bread to suggest it has divine origins, and the only "evidence" is someone's word, it would be ridiculous to believe that it did have divine origins.

The deity you believe in, based on the traits commonly agreed upon between Christians, must be aware that such things are only believed by the extremely gullible.

Thus, knowing that it is unreasonable to expect people to believe the bread is divine, it sends all people that don't believe that to hell -_-

 

[AV1611VET]

Wasn't my point. My point was, if there is nothing about the bread to suggest it has divine origins, and the only "evidence" is someone's word, it would be ridiculous to believe that it did have divine origins.

And what do "divine origins" look like? would you recognize it if you looked directly at it?

The deity you believe in, based on the traits commonly agreed upon between Christians, must be aware that such things are only believed by the extremely gullible.

The "deity that I believe in" documented what He did, when He did it, where He did it, how He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, what He thought of it when it was finished, and who the eyewitness were and what they thought of it.

If therefore, you want to call that "deception," then that's your prerogative.

Thus, knowing that it is unreasonable to expect people to believe the bread is divine, it sends all people that don't believe that to hell -_-

And what would a divine loaf of raisin bread look like?

And do you mind answering my OP as I wrote it?

 

[PsychoSarah]

And what do "divine origins" look like? would you recognize it if you looked directly at it?

-_- no more than you can. So I can say a sandwich has divine origins, and you have no choice but to believe it, least you be wrong and end up in hell. How fun :/

The "deity that I believe in" documented what He did, when He did it, where He did it, how He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, what He thought of it when it was finished, and who the eyewitness were and what they thought of it.

In words written by people making claims about it. Plus, the bible DOESN'T actually say how things were created in any relevant detail, it just says god did it. You'd never be able to describe any details about the process that could be tested or anything, because the most detailed it gets is "god spoke".

If therefore, you want to call that "deception," then that's your prerogative.

Not deception as much as making your god look like it wants people to disbelieve. These are the actions of a being that wants to send people to hell with a flimsy excuse for doing it, not one that wants to save people. Because an actual being that wants to save people wouldn't base salvation on believing in something outlandish.

And what would a divine loaf of raisin bread look like?

-_- raisin bread with at least 1 property human made raisin bread CANNOT have. Not simply doesn't have, but CANNOT have.

But, your raisin bread is moot, because there's no reason to NOT make it obviously divine if it was.

 

[AV1611VET]

-_- raisin bread with at least 1 property human made raisin bread CANNOT have. Not simply doesn't have, but CANNOT have.

Like raising the level of mass/energy in the universe accordingly?

That's not good enough???

 

[Brightmoon]

During my life as a believer I had wrestled with thoughts about this. There is the reasonable logic to figure that there is light from stars so far away that it would take many many thousands of years to get here. Yahweh God could create light from those stars to here instantaneously. But some light actually from some stars would not be here yet while they are seen, if there was creation that way. The world would have been formless, but that reasoning means that this universe is that old for it, otherwise God would be deceptive in things that are around for us to figure out, I don't see that being the case. The world then with a thick deep atmosphere didn't have light reach within the atmosphere originally, and became opaque, and soon after the heavenly bodies, with the stars out there, could be seen. This I find to be reasonable to believe with my faith.

This is exactly what creationists do . They come up with untenable just-so stories. An opaque atmosphere would prevent light from getting to the surface killing any plants and it might also cause a horrible feedback effect and the surface temperature would rise due to the greenhouse effect. This is runaway greenhouse effect is exactly why Venus is hellishly hot. (Pun intended). An opaque atmosphere is probably poisonous to most life as well as both nitrogen (78%of the atmosphere)and oxygen (21% ) can be seen through.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Like raising the level of mass/energy in the universe accordingly?

That's not good enough???

-_- no, since the only way to tell that, aside from directly observing it being created and filming it, would be to have measured all of the mass and energy in the universe before and after the bread was created. Something we cannot do.

If the divine maker of the bread wanted it known that the bread was divine, it could not expect people to reasonably make that conclusion without making the bread measurably special. Not only are there no logical reasons for this being to make the bread so mundane that it would pass as normal, but it is actually illogical to do so if the desire is that the bread is recognized as being divinely created.

 

[AV1611VET]

If the divine maker of the bread wanted it known that the bread was divine, it could not expect people to reasonably make that conclusion without making the bread measurably special.

I would say bread created ex nihilo is "reasonably special" … wouldn't you?

 

[VirOptimus]

I would say bread created ex nihilo is "reasonably special" … wouldn't you?

But there is no such bread, its just a made up example. Its just as insightful as the technobabble in Star Trek.

 

[AV1611VET]

But there is no such bread,

Ya … while educatees were standing around scratching their heads over it, some kid came along and ate it.

Way to go, kid!

 

[VirOptimus]

Ya … while educatees were standing around scratching their heads over it, some kid came along and ate it.

Way to go, kid!

Why would they scratch their heads over something that does not exist outside your imagination?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I would say bread created ex nihilo is "reasonably special" … wouldn't you?

It is, but you don't get the luxury of seeing it being created, so you won't be able to tell the difference between this loaf and any other one. But, you get to go to hell for not thinking it is divine all the same.

Tell me, AV, if you wanted the largest number of people possible to go to heaven, what would you do if you were god?

 

[FredVB]

During my life as a believer I had wrestled with thoughts about this. There is the reasonable logic to figure that there is light from stars so far away that it would take many many thousands of years to get here. Yahweh God could create light from those stars to here instantaneously. But some light actually from some stars would not be here yet while they are seen, if there was creation that way. The world would have been formless, but that reasoning means that this universe is that old for it, otherwise God would be deceptive in things that are around for us to figure out, I don't see that being the case. The world then with a thick deep atmosphere didn't have light reach within the atmosphere originally, and became opaque, and soon after the heavenly bodies, with the stars out there, could be seen. This I find to be reasonable to believe with my faith.

This is exactly what creationists do . They come up with untenable just-so stories. An opaque atmosphere would prevent light from getting to the surface killing any plants and it might also cause a horrible feedback effect and the surface temperature would rise due to the greenhouse effect. This is runaway greenhouse effect is exactly why Venus is hellishly hot. (Pun intended). An opaque atmosphere is probably poisonous to most life as well as both nitrogen (78%of the atmosphere)and oxygen (21% ) can be seen through.

Though I didn't identify myself, regardless of that, I didn't just come up with a just-so story, as I don't claim I know for certain. I can find it reasonable to believe this, as I said. The sun would be seen from earth soon after the plants and photosynthesizing organisms were made, they wouldn't have had long enough to die out anyway, yet at the time light would already be coming through. The thick cover to the atmosphere that I was thinking of would mainly have been water in droplets like fog or clouds. When it thinned out the sun was in place and stars could be seen. This is reasonable to me.

 

[Brightmoon]

Though I didn't identify myself, regardless of that, I didn't just come up with a just-so story, as I don't claim I know for certain. I can find it reasonable to believe this, as I said. The sun would be seen from earth soon after the plants and photosynthesizing organisms were made, they wouldn't have had long enough to die out anyway, yet at the time light would already be coming through. The thick cover to the atmosphere that I was thinking of would mainly have been water in droplets like fog or clouds. When it thinned out the sun was in place and stars could be seen. This is reasonable to me.

. Why don’t you learn real science and find out what would really happen with your scenarios ? They’re basically untenable unless you insert magic God juju . And there’s no evidence for them. Creationists never realize that their scenarios have real world consequences and that we’d see the evidence of those consequences on the earth and in the genes of living organisms . This is why scientists say that these biblical stories are little more than fantasies.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Though I didn't identify myself, regardless of that, I didn't just come up with a just-so story, as ....

However what follows is basically a "just-so story". It is what you expect to happen from whatever science you know.

If the Earth is young as taking the Bible as literal fact says, then what we measure about Earth is a lie created by God. Every scientific measurement that shows that Earth is older must be measuring a lie. For example there are ice cores that have visual layers depositing annually. You could count them for yourself and get to ~55,000 years. Thus those ices cores are lies.

If Earth has lies created by God then whatever anyone says about the early Earth cannot be verified with trustworthy evidence. Evidence is the foundation of science. We may as well guess that God put up a big umbrella to shield the Earth and stop any runaway greenhouse gas. Or we can guess that God changed the properties of CO2 to reduce the greenhouse effect. etc.

There is no trustworthy evidence to distinguish between these guesses and your story.

The post you originally replied was on other lies in the universe that God would have to create in order to fool us about the age of the universe: The lies inserted into the universe have to also lie about the history of the universe to various extents.

And if we take the Bible as literal fact then your story is not needed! On day 1, light with evening and morning and thus 24 hours (a proto-Sun?). On day 2, oceans and sky. On day 3, land and vegetation. On day 4, Sun, Moon and stars.
That is 24 hours for vegetation to survive.

 

[AV1611VET]

If the Earth is young as taking the Bible as literal fact says, then what we measure about Earth is a lie created by God.

Then you would have to accuse Him of lying every time He created a loaf of raisin bread ex nihilo, since raisin bread contains dried grapes.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Then you would have to accuse Him of lying every time He created a loaf of raisin bread ex nihilo, since raisin bread contains dried grapes.

That is an ignorant assertion about my post, AV1611VET. You read it. My post is about the lies that God has to create in order to fool us that the Earth and the universe are older than a literal Bible says.

God creating a loaf of raisin bread is as much about the age of the Earth or universe as a baker baking a loaf of raisin bread !

A more correct analogy is God created a loaf of raisin bread containing dried grapes and a book states that dried grapes did not exist 1 minute ago when we have a packet of dried grapes saying that they were packed a day ago.
The Earth ("raisin bread") is full of rocks ("dried grapes") and we have evidence that the rocks were "packed" billions of years ago. People stating that God made the rock thousands of years ago according to their interpretation of a book are accusing God of creating lies. I have seen excuses for that, e.g. it is a test of faith. However the lies still exist.

Back when I was a Christian, I believed in a truthful God. Thus the Bible is not literal. No lies needed to fool people.

 

[VirOptimus]

Then you would have to accuse Him of lying every time He created a loaf of raisin bread ex nihilo, since raisin bread contains dried grapes.

1. Prove or support that god(s) exist.
2. Prove or support that creation ex nihilio is possible.
3. Prove or support that god(s) have in fact ever created raisin bread ex nihilio.

Otherwise, this is just unsupported nothing.

 

[AV1611VET]

1. Prove or support that god(s) exist.

Merry Christmas!

 

[AV1611VET]

God creating a loaf of raisin bread is as much about the age of the Earth or universe as a baker baking a loaf of raisin bread !

So you wouldn't accuse Him of lying if He created a loaf of raisin bread ex nihilo?

Then why should He be accused of creating an earth with "dried grapes" ex nihilo?