• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Lets talk about salvation

Status
Not open for further replies.

lismore

Maranatha
Oct 28, 2004
21,121
4,752
Scotland
✟320,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And how does this fit into your position exactly? I'm not seeing any support for your position in this verse . . .



.


Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

We will reign with him and we will not be hurt at all by the second death.

It does not say:

We will be judged by him and some will be sent to the lake of fire in the second death.

:wave:
 
Upvote 0

lismore

Maranatha
Oct 28, 2004
21,121
4,752
Scotland
✟320,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
For all who are not very expereinced at debate, a tactic commonly employed when one party finds themselves backed into a logical corner by their own arguments is the logical fallacy known as ad hominem.
.

When you say I am quoting dispensational doctrines thats ok, but when I say you are quoting catholic doctrines then that is ad hominem?

Ciamr an tha'n dha! Slainte ho'n gailteachd ^_^
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟65,355.00
Faith
Catholic
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

We will reign with him and we will not be hurt at all by the second death.

It does not say:

We will be judged by him and some will be sent to the lake of fire in the second death.

:wave:

Of course, that is not its intent to address the issue of judgement, so why would you expect it to be there? :)

You are arguing from silence. . not a very firm foundation from which to argue anything . . .

It speaks of those who have part in the first resurrection.

A believer who has refused to forgive others is not partaking in the first resurrection . . ;)


.
 
Upvote 0

nephilimiyr

I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open
Jan 21, 2003
23,433
1,799
62
Wausau Wisconsin
Visit site
✟55,552.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
For all who are not very expereinced at debate, a tactic commonly employed when one party finds themselves backed into a logical corner by their own arguments is the logical fallacy known as ad hominem. It attacks the person (their character, who they are) rather than deal with the actual issues the person raised. This is usually done in order to deflect attention off of the fact that one has been backed into a logical/theological corner regarding his/her position:

appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect​
A fallacy that attacks the person rather than dealing with the real issue in dispute.​
attacking your opponent personally rather than her/his argument. Ad hominem is fallacious argumentation.
an argument "against the man" or person. This is a device employed to attack not the issues but rather the one you are arguing with, especially on a personal level or basis. It is usually employed by those whose arguments are weak.
when people can't find fault with an argument, they sometimes attack the arguer, substituting irrelevant assertions about that person's character for an analysis of the argument itself.​
appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason); "ad hominem arguments"​
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument [aimed] at the person", but usually translated as "argument to the man"), is a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by addressing the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself​
Here, it appears attention is being deflected off of the fact that neph's interpretation of these scriptures is self contradictory. He says he doesn't want to argue, but now has turned the argument into one of a personal nature.

I am totally willing to forgive you and in fact have already done so, are you willing to forgive? I am apologizing and I do mean that from the bottom of my heart. I am sorry for offending you and making this thing between you and I a public ordeal. It was wrong of me.
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,402
14,528
Vancouver
Visit site
✟477,376.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'll argue Christ and Him crucifed... that's about all I'll argue about.

Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after CHRIST.

In peace and grace,

-Genesis
I think that's a very good stance to take.
 
Upvote 0

lismore

Maranatha
Oct 28, 2004
21,121
4,752
Scotland
✟320,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
:scratch:

What are you talking about?


.


lismore, this is just dispenationalist indoctrination speaking. . . . .

.

Never heard of that. Anything you cannot give an answer to is indoctrinated? What if all your sharings are catholic indoctrinations?

For all who are not very expereinced at debate, a tactic commonly employed when one party finds themselves backed into a logical corner by their own arguments is the logical fallacy known as ad hominem.
.

You couldnt give me an answer to the scriptures and instead labelled me 'dispensational indoctrinated'. When I said you might be catholic indoctinated you said I was attacking you 'ad hominem? But you said the same to me a few posts before?

:scratch:
 
Upvote 0

lismore

Maranatha
Oct 28, 2004
21,121
4,752
Scotland
✟320,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Of course, that is not its intent to address the issue of judgement, so why would you expect it to be there? :)
.

Those who are hurt by the second death will have to be judged first.

A believer who has refused to forgive others is not partaking in the first resurrection . . ;)
.

Where does the bible say that some believers will not be in the first resurrection?

St Paul says the dead in Christ will rise first. He does not say the dead in Christ except those who did not do blah blah blah, blah blah blah.

1 Thes 4:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟65,355.00
Faith
Catholic
You couldnt give me an answer to the scriptures and instead labelled me 'dispensational indoctrinated'. When I said you were catholic indoctinated you said I was attacking you 'ad hominem? But you said the same to me a few posts before?

:scratch:

Why do you think that last quote was addressed to you? It wasn't lismore . . I labeled nothing you said as ad hominem. :)

.
 
Upvote 0

lismore

Maranatha
Oct 28, 2004
21,121
4,752
Scotland
✟320,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Why do you think that last quote was addressed to you? It wasn't lismore . . I labeled nothing you said as ad hominem. :)

.

:wave:

Ah ok, Im getting a little confused. God Bless you, I think I'll let others share their ministry here now. No point going round the mulberry again and again.

Take care:wave:
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟65,355.00
Faith
Catholic
Those who are hurt by the second death will have to be judged first.

Where does the bible say that some believers will not be in the first resurrection?

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.​

The Greek word translated "believe" here is used in the NT to refer to SAVING FAITH, trust in God.

1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

Thayer's Greek Definition of
G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō

So, Jesus has told us that some who having started out with saving faith, having received Christ with Joy, will fall away in a time of temptation.


St Paul says the dead in Christ will rise first. He does not say the dead in Christ except those who did not do blah blah blah, blah blah blah.

If they fall away, though they were in Christ at one point, once they have fallen away and die in that state, are they any longer in Christ?

1 Thes 4:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Yes . . . but this doesn't apply to those who once had saving faith, who received the Word with Joy, but then fell away . . . . :(


.
 
Upvote 0

lismore

Maranatha
Oct 28, 2004
21,121
4,752
Scotland
✟320,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If they fall away, though they were in Christ at one point, once they have fallen away and die in that state, are they any longer in Christ?
.

The good shepherd leaves the 99 sheep and goes to find the one lost sheep that has

FALLEN BY THE WAYSIDE^_^

Lets fix our eyes on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith. He starts and he perfects our faith. he who started in a good work in me will see in through to completion.

:0
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟65,355.00
Faith
Catholic
Lismore, it wasn't "fallen by the wayside" . . the seed had fallen in ground fertile enough to grow .. the person had received the Word with Joy and BELEIVED . . had saving faith.

But the BELIEVER fell away . . .their faith, once vibrant and growing, died . . . .

What did Jesus mean by "fall away" in that verse? Did He mean they are still saved?

lismore, there are so many scriptures that talk about the conditional nature of our salvation, of being able to be grafted in and broken off, etc . .


For instance, the scriptures say this:

1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

This is a conditional statement . . "if" this, then that. . . so the converse is true . . "if NOT" this, then NOT that.

So, if the truth does not remain in you, you will not continue in the Son and in the Father.

That is what conditional means . . "if" is a conditional word.

Sure, Jesus is going to keep seeking you if you fall away, but you have free will and can reject His help and remain fallen away, no longer continuing in the Son and the Father, and die in that state.

You would then be lost for all eternity . . . . for you would no longer be in Christ.


.


.
 
Upvote 0

lismore

Maranatha
Oct 28, 2004
21,121
4,752
Scotland
✟320,779.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
:wave:
What did Jesus mean by "fall away" in that verse? Did He mean they are still saved?
.

The good shepherd leaves the 99 sheep to find the little lost sheep. The little lost sheep is not doing any good works or anything to get itself back but the good shepherd goes and finds it and brings it back, because, He is the good shepherd.

lismore, there are so many scriptures that talk about the conditional nature of our salvation, of being able to be grafted in and broken off, etc . .
.

Talking of ROmans 11, branches being broken off:

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Jeremiah 31: 36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."
37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.

Measure out the foundations of the earth, measure the heavens and salvation can be lost.

:wave:
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.