Lets talk about salvation

[thereselittleflower]

The good shepherd leaves the 99 sheep to find the little lost sheep. The little lost sheep is not doing any good works or anything to get itself back but the good shepherd goes and finds it and brings it back, because, He is the good shepherd.

The problem here is that this is a parable, and as such, it is using objects in real life to teach eternal truths, and here its purpose is not to teach us we have no free will or say so in the matter, but to illustrate that God will not give up on us . . .

It says nothing about us refusing God or not being able to refuse God. To make it say this is to take it beyond its purpose, and then that takes it beyond what Jesus was trying to teach about . . . When we do this we can easily enter into wrong understandings . . .

This is not about our decisions, it is about God and His faithfulness . . . . It does not say we can't say no to God . . . .

We do have free will and we can still say no.

Talking of ROmans 11, branches being broken off:

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Yet you are not dealing with the part I was referring to . .

You left out the part about fearing:

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
​

Because of unbelief . . . and in the parable of the sower and the seed, the ones who BELEIVED, then fell away . . again, UNBELIEF . . . .

"do not be high minded but fear . . .take heed lest he also not spare thee . . . "​

Paul is talking to BELEIVERS here . . believers who can fall away in unbelief and be treated just as the Jews who were broken off because of unbelief . . .

Jeremiah 31: 36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."
37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.

Measure out the foundations of the earth, measure the heavens and salvation can be lost.

No . . that's not what that says . . it is speaking of Israel being a nation before God . . .look it is right there in verse 36 -

Jeremiah 31: 36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."
​

That is the context, not eternal salvation . . .

And it is not a forever context either . .

For ever is used to translate the Hebrew word "yowm" - for ever does not always mean "for ever" :

Lexicon Results for yowm (Strong's 03117)
Hebrew for 03117

Pronunciation Guide
yowm {yome}

TWOT Reference Root Word
TWOT - 852 from an unused root meaning to be hot
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) day, time, year

a) day (as opposed to night)

b) day (24 hour period)

1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1

2) as a division of time

a) a working day, a day's journey

c) days, lifetime (pl.)

d) time, period (general)

e) year

f) temporal references

1) today

2) yesterday

3) tomorrow​

Nothing at all communicating any idea of for ever as in undending. . . . .


You are misappropriating this verse in several ways . . .


lismore, I can't see how anyone can argue against the conditional nature of salvation without ignoring all the conditional statements about it in scripture and misappropriating scripture . . .

I'm sorry, I just don't see how it's possible, which is why I no longer believe that we are saved at one point in time and that's it, that salvation can never be lost.


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[icedtea]

As usual, I forget where this is, but there is a verse which says some will turn away from the gospel and instead of hope there is a fearful expectation of judgment.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I am totally willing to forgive you and in fact have already done so, are you willing to forgive? I am apologizing and I do mean that from the bottom of my heart. I am sorry for offending you and making this thing between you and I a public ordeal. It was wrong of me.

Thank you neph, I truly and deeply appreciate it. I have edited my posts as well, and apologize for over reacting to your post. Thank you for showing true Christian charity.



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[lismore]

The problem here is that this is a parable, and as such, it is using objects in real life to teach eternal truths, and here its purpose is not to teach us we have no free will or say so in the matter, but to illustrate that God will not give up on us .
.

If God will not give up on us, if Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, if Salvation is his work, his covenant, if he who started a good work in us will see it through to completion, how can we elevate this 'freewill' to a higher place than God?

Jesus is the good shepherd who leaves the 99 and finds the little lost sheep. Thats who He is!

 

[lismore]

Are you saying they never fail to do good works? Are you saying that all Chrsitians do good works without fail?
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You keep misunderstanding me. Christians do not do good works, Christians are good works.

Phillipians 1:

"6": Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

When it is God's work in us then we can be who we are in Christ without fail. The Christian life is not about what you do, its about who you are in Jesus:



We are to always have an answer for the hope we have, pray without ceasing and to seek God's face at all moments.

How can a person do these things through religous duty or pastoral exhortation alone? It is not possible to do these things outside of being born again.

Praying once a day is not good enough. We are to pray all day. Its not about religous works, its about relationship with God

 

[thereselittleflower]

You keep misunderstanding me. Christians do not do good works, Christians are good works.

Phillipians 1:

"6": Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Of course we are God's workmanship! No one has said no to this truth.

But this does not mean that we do not do good works.

In fact, the scripture say we were created to do good works:

Eph 2:10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.​

The above is a literal translation . . that we are to do good works is made evident by the context which is what we are to do . walk in them.

Here are some other translations which communicate this idea more clearly:

(GNB) God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.

(BBE) For by his act we were given existence in Christ Jesus to do those good works which God before made ready for us so that we might do them.

(CEV) God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. That's why he sent Christ to make us what we are.
​

The above are dynamic translations which carry the thought behind the words in the original langauge into English more clearly than a literal translation does.

When it is God's work in us then we can be who we are in Christ without fail. The Christian life is not about what you do, its about who you are in Jesus:

Of course it is about what we do . . we are commanded to DO Things lismore . . For instance, we are commanded to DO the following:

Deny ourselves
Take up our crosses
and Follow Jesus​

We are to always have an answer for the hope we have, pray without ceasing and to seek God's face at all moments.

These are also things we DO . . ..

How can a person do these things through religous duty or pastoral exhortation alone?

They can't . . and this is the point you seem to keep missing .. .

The Catholic Church, and niether do the Protestants who hold to CONDITIONAL SECURITY of the Believer, do not teach that they can. . . . This has been told to you now several times here and in numerous threads in the past. Yet you keep raising this red herring as though it has never been refuted.

Lismore . . once again . . it is ALL about doing these good works IN AND THRU AND BY the power of God.

It is not possible to do these things outside of being born again.

Absolutely correct . . . and no one is disputing this . . .

Praying once a day is not good enough. We are to pray all day. Its not about religous works, its about relationship with God

Exactly Lismore . . . It is aobut relationship with God, which is made possible by our faith and good works working together . . .

You separate them, but they are inseparable.


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[thereselittleflower]

If God will not give up on us, if Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, if Salvation is his work, his covenant, if he who started a good work in us will see it through to completion, how can we elevate this 'freewill' to a higher place than God?

Jesus is the good shepherd who leaves the 99 and finds the little lost sheep. Thats who He is!

Lismore, you are taking the scriptures out of context here . . It does not say that Jesus will, without fail, return such a lost one to the fold . . the believer has free will and can reject Him.

The Context of the passage shows the uncertain nature of the outcome . . . it just tells us that Jesus will not fail . . it does not promise that we will not fail, in fact it tells us the opposite:

Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mat 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. ​

Lismore, it is not the will of the Father that ANY perish, but we know that many will perish because they reject Christ. . . .

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

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[he4rty]

Just read this,

salvation is belief > faith >Fruition

I feel this is appropriate in all walks of christianity

salvation
1 A belief that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins
2 A faith in Jesus and the promise of the Holy spirit
3 The evidence of good fruit in ones life

or another possiblity

1 Belief that Jesus heals all
2 Faith that you will be healed
3 Fruition that your healing is complete

makes sense, and tends to agree with the posts on here.

 

[he4rty]

using the above to the parable of the sower

Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, the one fell by the roadside and was trampled; and the birds of the air devoured it.
NO BELIEF
Luk 8:6 And other fell on a rock, and sprouting, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
BELIEF
Luk 8:7 And other fell amidst thorns, and springing up with the thorns, they choked it.
FAITH
Luk 8:8 And other fell on good ground and sprang up, and bore fruit a hundredfold. And when He had said these things, He cried, He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
FRUITION

 

[thereselittleflower]

he4rty, that is a good analogy . . I think though that it misses the fact that the belief in the 2nd group is not merely a mental assent or belief, but a true belief that results in New Life . . ie they are born again. . . but the New Life is cut short, aborted.

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[he4rty]

he4rty, that is a good analogy . . I think though that it misses the fact that the belief in the 2nd group is not merely a mental assent or belief, but a true belief that results in New Life . . ie they are born again. . . but the New Life is cut short, aborted.

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It means to grow from one to the other, so belief would grow into faith, Etc but if you didn't grow or respond to the growth then i feel this is possibly where you would be when you turned your back on God.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I guess that is where I have to disagree then, for one cannot believe without faith. . .

Faith does grow, and one grows to fruition, but to separate it all like that fails to take into account that belief and faith go hand in hand . . .

The word translated "believe" here is used in the New Testament to refer to a "saving faith" . . .

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[he4rty]

I guess that is where I have to disagree then, for one cannot believe without faith. . .

Faith does grow, and one grows to fruition, but to separate it all like that fails to take into account that belief and faith go hand in hand . . .

The word translated "believe" here is used in the New Testament to refer to a "saving faith" . . .

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I think you need all three and all are there, maybe dormant, a seed has the ability to grow into a bush which produces good fruit its all there in that tiny seed, the potential for good things, its wether we allow the gardener to prune and nurture us into that bush or wether we decide to stop growing.