Lets talk about salvation

[nephilimiyr]

It means that our forgiveness is indeed conditional . . . .
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Not at all! You're missing something and here it is.
Matthew 18:23-24, Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement....

The servant who accepted the Kings forgiveness never had a change of heart or a change that occure in him at all. As the story reads, as soon as he went out he came across a fellow servant who owed him money and demanded it and eventually had the man thrown in prison.

All the story says is that the King took pity on him, cancelled the debt and let him go. When it come to our salvation God has done the same for us, He sent his only begotten Son to die on the cross for us so that our debt would be paid in full.

What the servant did right after this tells me that there was no change in him. The change that needs to occur is that we become born again, this didn't happen to the servant in the parable. No where in the story does it say anything about him being changed in anyway. So in fact he was probably happy that the king cancelled his debt but he never really accepted it viewed by the evidence of his words and actions.

See, everyone who hears the good news of the kingdom of God has to make a decission. This man heard the good news, his debt was cancelled, but did he accept it? According to his words and actions he did not. And according to Jesus there was no change in this man's heart. That change has got to happen.

All of our debts have been cancelled but do we accept it? Look at the cross, that is where all of your debts have been cancelled. The man looked at the cross, the king presented it to him. He told him that his debts were cancelled but the man didn't listen.

So yes, our salvation is conditional. Conditional that we accept the gift Of God in making our accounts debt free. When that happens God creates a new spirit in us that is created after Him in true righteousness and holiness. This didn't happen to the servant in Jesus's parable.

TALF, God has already settled our accounts, it's up to us to accept it. Read my sig.

 

[thereselittleflower]

If we then fail to forgive our salvation could be at risk, but bear in mind the servant was thrown into jail until his debt was paid. so how do you think that works in the grand design of things, is there somewhere we must pay our dues until we can see heaven?

It's an analogy, a parable. The elements of parables do not match up exactly with eternal things. Jesus is using human things, temporal things to explain eternal truths. The point to take away from the parable is that the unjust servant owed a debt he could never hope to repay . . . so the ruler saying he would be imprisoned until until the debt is paid in full is the same thing as saying forever, for it could never be paid before the unjust servant died in jail. . . .

It is the unpayable nature of the debt that is to be our focus . . not the temporal elements used to convey that concept.


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[lismore]

Hows it going

Why do you think so? Where in the bible does it say that?

Good works are the hearts response to God's Grace . . .

It is very possible for God to give grace to an unbeliever to do a good work . . responding to God's grace by cooperating with God and doing this good work releases more grace into their lives . . . at somepoint, the grace being received allows them to respond in faith.
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Thats not biblical.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


First comes the workmanship by God that makes you a new creation in Christ, then comes the good works that God prepared in advance for his workmanship to do.

A person that is not born again is totally unregenerate, they cannot do the works of God. Psalm 14:3 tells you that there is not even one of the sons of men who does what is right. A leopard cannot change his spots, the Ethiopian cannot change his skin. The heart is deceitful and wicked above all things, who can change it but God alone?

Then why do so many Christians fail to do good works?
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I dont know of any of the dear brothers and sisters who I fellowship with and minister with who are not totally sold out for Jesus, perhaps it is a specific issue to your group. Telling people they must do good works to earn their salvation or keep their salvation will not inspire any Godly works because only the SPirit can quicken a person and the person must be born again to see, enter, or work for the Kingdom in any way (John 3:3). One reason some of your 'Christian' acquaintances might not do much is that they are yet to be born again.

Then why did Jesus say things like Because you DID it unto the least of these enter the kingdom prepared for you . . . Because you DID IT NOT unto the least of these, depart from me . .
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That passage you are quoting is out of context.

'These my brethern' refers to Christ's earthly brethern the Jews (Deuteronomy 18:18). We already know that God blesses those who blesses the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews. Those two specific passages can be used to refute muslims who say Mohammed is the final prophet. God's final messenger must be a Jew according to those passages. If you read Matthew 25:31 you will see why this passage cannot be referring to a believer.

Jude 14:

"See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

We are not separated like sheep from goats, we are the ones who help the Lord to do the separating. During the time of Jacob's trouble (the great tribulation) the church is not there but will return with the Lord to judge those remaining some of whom may well have helped the Jews during the time of Jacobs trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). Only when the church has been raptured to heaven can the time of Jacob's troubles begin.

When The Lord Jesus deals with the Jews his brethern at this time the gentiles are out via the rapture, just as when Joseph was reunited with his brothers he ordered all gentiles in the room out. We return with him to execute judgement on the unrighteous. Do you not know that we will also judge angels? Christ took our judgement at calvary, now we sit at the bar in judgement of those who reject him.

God Bless You

 

[thereselittleflower]

I didn't say that nor is that what I meant.

I know you didn't state that neph, but it is the logical conclusion one is compelled to draw from a teaching of Jesus that even though one's debts (sins) have been forgiven, they, according to your own words, are not actually forgotten, but can be called back into rememberance if the conditions warrant it .. .

look at what you said again:

I don't believe God actually forgets our sins as in that they are erased from his memory but rather it should be said that He wont consider our sins as if we had never committed them. That is if we have a true heart of repentence.
​

That of course makes our forgivness conditional on true repentance. . .

Forgiveness of sins is conditional . . . this is one of the conditional elements of forgiveness, but we are going further than this here:

Keep in mind, that the master in that parable you use doesn't bring up the old servants debt until the servant had committed a wrong by not forgiving others the same way the master forgave him. If the servant would have forgave others in the same way he was forgiven, the debt that the master cancelled out never would've been brought up again.​

Notice that last "if" . . that is a conditional statement.

Logically, if "a" (in this case the ruler's forgiveness will not be recinded if the servant would have forgiven others) is true, then "b" the reverse situation is true as well.

This means that if "a" is true, then it is also true that the ruler's forgiveness will be recinded (as it was in the parable) if the servant does not forgive others as well.

The maintaining of the state of original forgiveness is predicated on meeting the conditions of maintaining that state . .. here, through forgiving others . .

Forgiving others helps us maintain that state. .

Failing to forgive others reverses that state. . . .

This teaching of Jesus clearly makes our forgiveness conditional . . .


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[lismore]

Repentance and faith in Christ.



No. We cannot lose our salvation.

Thats is the definition of a free pardon isnt it?

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hows it going

It's going well . .we have a few inches of snow . . really snarled things up in this region. But the kids are loving it!

Thats not biblical.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Exactly . . . yet that in no way contradicts anything I have said.

First comes the workmanship by God that makes you a new creation in Christ, then comes the good works that God prepared in advance for his workmanship to do.

No . . it doesn't say "FIRST" comes being made a new creation in Christ . . . There is no "FIRST" in that verse at all.

This verse just tells us who we are, not a sequence of events.

A person that is not born again is totally unregenerate, they cannot do the works of God. Psalm 14:3 tells you that there is not even one of the sons of men who does what is right. A leopard cannot change his spots, the Ethiopian cannot change his skin. The heart is deceitful and wicked above all things, who can change it but God alone?

The verse actually says 'who can KNOW it' . ..

Again, and I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, we are not talking about what man does in his own strength. Only what God's grace enables him to do by and in through God's grace. . . we are talking about man's cooperation with God's grace . .

To keep turning this into something about man's own power indicates to me you are not really listening to what I am saying.

I dont know of any of the dear brothers and sisters who I fellowship with and minister with who are not totally sold out for Jesus, perhaps it is a specific issue to your group.

Are you saying they never fail to do good works? Are you saying that all Chrsitians do good works without fail?

Telling people they must do good works to earn their salvation or keep their salvation will not inspire any Godly works because only the SPirit can quicken a person and the person must be born again to see, enter, or work for the Kingdom in any way (John 3:3).

Again, this issue of man, in his own power, earning salvation is really a red herring . . . I have never suggested such a thing. . . Please, try to understand what I am saying rather than just react to what you think I am saying. It will help our discussion a great deal if you would do this.

One reason some of your 'Christian' acquaintances might not do much is that they are yet to be born again.

Who would those be exactly since you are so quick to judge them?

That passage you are quoting is out of context.

'These my brethern' refers to Christ's earthly brethern the Jews (Deuteronomy 18:18).

Ummm . . this is your interpretation, which is out actually of context. Those who do the will of the Father are the brethern of Christ - believers:

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.​

This passage comes before the passage we are discussing in Matthew, and so Jesus' own words provide the proper context.

We already know that God blesses those who blesses the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews.

That was in the Old Testament.

Those two specific passages can be used to refute muslims who say Mohammed is the final prophet.

Now we are talking about muslims?

God's final messenger must be a Jew according to those passages. If you read Matthew 25:31 you will see why this passage cannot be referring to a believer.

I am sorry, but this is making no sense contextually.

Jude 14:

"See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

We are not separated like sheep from goats, we are the ones who help the Lord to do the separating. During the time of Jacob's trouble (the great tribulation) the church is not there but will return with the Lord to judge those remaining some of whom may well have helped the Jews during the time of Jacobs trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). Only when the church has been raptured to heaven can the time of Jacob's troubles begin.

When The Lord Jesus deals with the Jews his brethern at this time the gentiles are out via the rapture, just as when Joseph was reunited with his brothers he ordered all gentiles in the room out. We return with him to execute judgement on the unrighteous. Do you not know that we will also judge angels? Christ took our judgement at calvary, now we sit at the bar in judgement of those who reject him.

God Bless You

lismore, this is just dispenationalist indoctrination speaking.

The foundations of such a belief system have never been proven to be solid in any manner. To present it here as assumed fact in support of your position is not very helpful to understanding anything.

See, you are assuming something to be true that is not proven to be true . . . . to use such assumption as a basis from which to prove another point is actually pointless . . it can't be done legitimately. I know this is what you believe lismore, but that does not make it fact.

This is one of the problems I have with dispensationalism . . it tries to proves its claims with with other claims that are merely based on assumptions. . . .

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[nephilimiyr]

Forgiving others helps us maintain that state. .

Failing to forgive others reverses that state. . . .

This teaching of Jesus clearly makes our forgiveness conditional . . .


.

TALF, but you are mistaken with what it is Jesus was actually teaching. Did you read my last post or did you skip it completely?

Jesus was talking about a man who was never born again, never changed, never repented, never accepted any gift. The truth about the servant in the parable is a picture of all non-believing people after having heard the good news of their debts being cancelled but not accepting the gift.

This is not a parable about people after having become born again and then not forgiving their fellow man and then having their salvation taken away from them.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Thats is the definition of a free pardon isnt it?

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Hmm . . that's not what the translation I am reading right now says:

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.​

Or this:

(ASV) let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto Jehovah, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.​

Or this:

(BBE) Let the sinner give up his way, and the evil-doer his purpose: and let him come back to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him; and to our God, for there is full forgiveness with him.​

Or these:

(CEV) Give up your crooked ways and your evil thoughts. Return to the LORD our God. He will be merciful and forgive your sins.

(Darby) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto Jehovah, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

(DRB) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive.

(ESV) let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

(Geneva) Let the wicked forsake his wayes, and the vnrighteous his owne imaginations, and returne vnto the Lord, and he wil haue mercy vpon him: and to our God, for hee is very ready to forgiue.

(GNB) Let the wicked leave their way of life and change their way of thinking. Let them turn to the LORD, our God; he is merciful and quick to forgive.

(JPS) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of iniquity his thoughts; and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have compassion upon him, and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

(KJV-1611) Let the wicked forsake his way, & the vnrighteous man his thoughts: and let him returne vnto the Lord, and he will haue mercie vpon him, and to our God, for hee will abundantly pardon.

(LITV) Let the wicked forsake his way and the man of vanity his thoughts, and let him return to Jehovah, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon

(MKJV) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

(RV) let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

(Webster) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return to the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

(YLT) Forsake doth the wicked his way, And the man of iniquity his thoughts, And he returneth to Jehovah, and He pitieth him, And unto our God for He multiplieth to pardon.

​

What is the definition of that Hebrew word so translated above?:

H7235
רבה
râbâh
BDB Definition:
1) be or become great, be or become many, be or become much, be or become numerous
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become many, become numerous, multiply (of people, animals, things)
1a2) to be or grow great
1b) (Piel) to make large, enlarge, increase, become many
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to make much, make many, have many
1c1a) to multiply, increase
1c1b) to make much to do, do much in respect of, transgress greatly
1c1c) to increase greatly or exceedingly
1c2) to make great, enlarge, do much
2) (Qal) to shoot
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2103, 2104​

There is no concept of "freely" doing anything here . . .

One has to wonder what version would mistranslate this word so? Ahhh . . the NIV . . . .


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[thereselittleflower]

TALF, but you are mistaken with what it is Jesus was actually teaching. Did you read my last post or did you skip it completely?

Jesus was talking about a man who was never born again, never changed, never repented, never accepted any gift. The truth about the servant in the parable is a picture of all non-believing people after having heard the good news of their debts being cancelled but not accepting the gift.

This is not a parable about people after having become born again and then not forgiving their fellow man.

No, my friend . . it is a PARABLE . .

Jesus is using common elements found in life to illustrate eternal truths.

The king represents God as is clear from Jesus' words following the parable.

The Unjust servant represents the sinner who owes God an unpayable debt for which there is unending punishment because he cannot pay . . the sinner. .

The Unjust Servant repents . .the sinner repenting . . asks for forgiveness, and is given forgivness . .the forgiven sinner. . . He never has to pay what he owed. . all is forgiven . .

So now the unjust servant has been restored to right relationship with the king . . the sinner being restored to right relationship with God.

But what does the unjust servant, who now represents the forgiven sinner restored to right relationship to God, do? He does not forgive from his heart a fellow servant.

What does the king, who is also called his lord and represents God, do?

He reverses his forgiveness already given to the unjust servent (the sinner who refused to forgive as he had been forgiven), and consigns him to prison and the tormentors from which there is hope of escape. . . .

And Jesus says to His disciples, His followers, Believers in Him:

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.​

neph, I don't know how much clearer it could be. This was not addressed to the jews . . . it was addressed to the DISCIPLES directly - SPECIFICALLY PETER..

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
​

As far as your previous post, I just hand't gotten to it yet. The point I feel you are missing is that the servant WAS FORGIVEN . . .

There has to be real and true repentance for there to be forgiveness of sins. One cannot be forgiven sins if one is does not have real repentance. . .

So, it is obvious that this servant truly did repent . . .for he was forgiven all. . .

The reckoning in the parable represents the judgement we will all experience after our life on earth is thru.

The lesson of this parable is, when our life is said and done, if it is found we have refused to forgive others as we have been forgiven, the fate of this unjust servant will be ours.
.


The Lord's Prayer also illustrates this most vividly . . .

"Forgive us our sins AS WE forgive those who sin against us"​

Jesus is again teaching us of the very conditional state of our forgiveness before God as believers. . .

We are taught to pray that we will be forgiven AS WE forgive others . . . .

Just as I said before . . logically if "a" is true, then the converse "b" is true as well . . .

If we pray "forgive us as we forgive others" . . then the implied prayer is "do not forgive our sins as we do not forgive the sins of others" is true as well.


It is very simple and plain. . . .


Neph, how can a man be forgiven all his sins, restored to right relationship to God, and not be born again?



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[nephilimiyr]

TALF, I didn't say it wasn't a parable. I said it wasn't a parable ABOUT blah, blah, blah

 

[thereselittleflower]

My comment was in response to your statement that

Jesus was talking about a man who was never born again, never changed, never repented, never accepted any gift.
​

. . this is simply a semmantical issue, and we shouldn't let it get in the way. . Yes, I understood you understood it was a parable .. .

And what it is about is not what you said it was . . .

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[nephilimiyr]

The king represents God as is clear from Jesus' words following the parable.

And it's also made clear by what Jesus said before the parable.
Matt. 18:23, Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.[/b]
The king of heaven is God so we know right away that Jesus's King in the parable is God.

Jesus said the king is wanting to settle accounts with his servants. We know right away that the servants Jesus is talking about in the parable is talking about all the people of the earth because what is said in John 3:16.
Who does God want to settle accounts with? everyone.

The Unjust servant represents the sinner who owes God an unpayable debt for which there is unending punishment because he cannot pay . . the sinner. .

Exactly, "unjust", the servant represents all unsaved people. The parable is about God wanting to settle accounts, not that he already has.

The Unjust Servant repents . .the sinner repenting . . asks for forgiveness, and is given forgivness . .the forgiven sinner. . . He never has to pay what he owed. . all is forgiven . .

No, the servent didn't repent, read the parable again. Repenting is not just begging for forgivness TALF. Repenting means that you turn away from your sins, that you make a change. The servant in the parable never did that, he never repented. All he did was beg for forgivness.

This part of the parable really is about how people will first hear about God's laws and the punishment if they are broken. Of course the servant in the parable begs for forgivness when confronted with the fact that he is about to be punished.

The king presented the servant with the good news, but did the servant listen? We'll find out!

So now the unjust servant has been restored to right relationship with the king . . the sinner being restored to right relationship with God.

Wrong, the servant isn't restored into right relationship because he never repented.

What the king did in the parable is the samething that Jesus did on the cross. When Jesus died on the cross He died for everyone, for all sinners. What the king did in the parable was tell the servant the good news. He said to the servant, your debt is cancelled, just like the Holy Spirit is telling all the world right now, your debt is cancelled!!! But does the world listen? Some do, some don't.

Matt. 18:27, The servant's master took pity on him, cancelled the debt and let him go.
In reality what did God do? God took pity on all of us, cancelled our debt by sending Jesus to the cross, and then leaves it up to us on whether we're going to act upon that. Did the servant act upon the gift in the parable? No he did not.

Before Jesus's act of atonement men were required to pay the debt. After the act of atonement men are not required to pay the debt but only believe, have faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. This is what this part of the parable is talking about.

But what does the unjust servant, who now represents the forgiven sinner restored to right relationship to God, do? He does not forgive from his heart a fellow servant.

No he does not represent the forgiven sinner. There is no evidence that the servant in the parable ever repented of anything. Yes he begged for forgivness, that's not true repentence TALF. True repentence requires change for that is what the word repent means.

The servant does not forgive the other fellow servant because he never repented in the first place. He never changed. With God's plan of salvation a change is required! You must be born again. Being born again means that God has created in you a new spirit that is like Him in true righteousness and holiness. It's only with this spirit that we are ever considered born again.

What does the king, who is also called his lord and represents God, do?

Whether people accept it or not, God is Lord of this earth. Lord means owner and He ownes everything that he has ever made, even the sinner who is bound for hell.

He reverses his forgiveness already given to the unjust servent (the sinner who refused to forgive as he had been forgiven), and consigns him to prison and the tormentors from which there is hope of escape. . . .

In reality, this is a picture of the final judgment. Everyone will have to give an account for themselves at the judgment seat of God. If you haven't accepted the gift of forgivness that Jesus paid then you will be punished.

God is going to say to us, I gave you the gift, your debts were cancelled but you refused to believe it. You did not accept the gift so I can't accept you.

In the parable the King tells the servant that he should've had the same mercy on the other servant as he had extended towards him. In reality God will say to everyone who did not accept God's gift of salvation the same thing if they were unforgiving in their life. He's going to say 'I sent my only begotten Son into this world so that you would be debt free. I showed you mercy but you couldn't do the same?

God doesn't reverse what was done on the cross TALF, the gift is always there for us to cling to.

And Jesus says to His disciples, His followers, Believers in Him:

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.​

neph, I don't know how much clearer it could be. This was not addressed to the jews . . . it was addressed to the DISCIPLES directly - SPECIFICALLY PETER..

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?​

Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.​

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.​

As far as your previous post, I just hand't gotten to it yet. The point I feel you are missing is that the servant WAS FORGIVEN . . .

Here's my point, I believe that the parable only shows that forgivness was provided for the servant by way of his debts being cancelled. But that is true for every single living person on this earth. The servant in the parable doesn't represent a born again Christian, he represents a non-believer. The difference is that born again Christians accept the gift and make Jesus Christ Lord of their lives. The servant in the parable never even came close to representing true born again Christianity.

There has to be real and true repentance for there to be forgiveness of sins. One cannot be forgiven sins if one is does not have real repentance. . .

Then why is it that you are so sure that the servant in the parable had truely repented? There is absolutely no evidence to go by in order to make such a claim.

So, it is obvious that this servant truly did repent . . .for he was forgiven all. . .

But in reality what you really are saying, whether you realise it or not, is that for there to be true repentence all you have to do is beg. That's all the servant in the parable did. No, what the King did was provide the means for him to be forgiven. It was then up to the servant to either accept it or not. It's odvious that the servant didn't accept it. that means he was never born again.

The reckoning in the parable represents the judgement we will all experience after our life on earth is thru.

Hey! we agree on that!

The lesson of this parable is, when our life is said and done, if it is found we have refused to forgive others as we have been forgiven, the fate of this unjust servant will be ours.

The lesson is much more deeper than that TALF. The lesson is, that if you don't accept the gift of salvation, like the unjust servant didn't do, and repent, like the unjust servant didn't do, then you will be punished.

Forgiving others from your heart is evidence of the spirit change we go through when being born again. If you call yourself a Christian and don't forgive others then there is a problem.

The Lord's Prayer also illustrates this most vividly . . .

"Forgive us our sins AS WE forgive those who sin against us"​

Jesus is again teaching us of the very conditional state of our forgiveness before God as believers. . .

We are taught to pray that we will be forgiven AS WE forgive others . . . .

Oh yes, and if you are a born again Christian forgiving others shouldn't be a problem and it shouldn't be something we have to worry about. In the Lord's Prayer, we are not begging God to forgive our sins. What we're doing is confirming the fact that God has forgiven us.

If we pray "forgive us as we forgive others" . . then the implied prayer is "do not forgive our sins as we do not forgive the sins of others" is true as well.

Or rather, If we forgive others then we know that you have forgiven us.

You see, God has already done his part when it comes to forgiving us of our sins. He sent His Son to die on the cross for us. After that it's all about whether we accept it or not. We don’t have to plead with God. Our Father has already supplied all our needs through Christ. It’s a matter of appropriating what is already ours, not pleading for things that aren’t yet given. Forgiveness of sins has already been provided for, all we have to do is accept.

It is very simple and plain. . . .

LOL, I agree

Neph, how can a man be forgiven all his sins, restored to right relationship to God, and not be born again?

That's just the problem, you consider that servant in the parable as being born again, restored into right standing with the king, where I think I have clearly showed that that wasn't the case at all.

 

[he4rty]

Mat 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
Mat 6:15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

It's quite plain here and in mark 11:25 but is this verse talking to true believers or a sign for us to know if we are truly of God.

 

[thereselittleflower]

And it's also made clear by what Jesus said before the parable.
Matt. 18:23, Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.[/b]
The king of heaven is God so we know right away that Jesus's King in the parable is God.

Jesus said the king is wanting to settle accounts with his servants. We know right away that the servants Jesus is talking about in the parable is talking about all the people of the earth because what is said in John 3:16.

No neph . . you are taking words from one writer and making them controlling of the meaning of words of another writer. . . . The bible doesn't work that way ......this is called proof texting. . . it is an invalid way to approach interpretation of scripture.

And your application of John 3:16 is very inappropriate here for your purpose. . . This parable is not talking about God sending His son so that those who would believe in Him might (notice "might") have everlasting life . . .

In fact, let's look at John 3:16 in more detail since you brought it up . . it actually supports my position, not yours:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.​

The greek word translated "have" is "echo" and is in the Present tense, Active voice, SUBJUNCTIVE mood.

The subjunctive mood means that

5792 Mood - Subjunctive

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and
potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina."
​

This is a conditional state, not an absolute one.

If belief at a point in time made this a finished state, then the PERFECT tense would have been appropriate and would have communicated this, for it would have indicated an action comleted in the past, with nothing more to be added to it . . . Never is this seen in the Greek regarding salvation.

Now, John 3:16 speaks about those who believe . . if you want to talk about any relationship of this verse to the parable in Matthew, then this would be it. . BELIEVERS . . not unbelievers.

Now back to the Parable. .

Jesus tells us that the king (God) is settling accounts with his servants . . . . these are BELIEVERS neph . . not unbelievers . . . unbelievers do not serve God . . .BELIEVERS do . .

So, right here, we see that this parable is directly aimed at believers, followers of Christ. This right here is totally opposite what your position is based on.

Who does God want to settle accounts with? everyone.

His SERVANTS . . BELIEVERS . . . This is also born out by what Jesus says at the end . .

So will my heavenly Father do unto you (Peter and the disciples, the one's Jesus is telling this parable to) if ye (Peter and the disciples, the one's Jesus is telling this parable to) do not forgive . .​

His audience is who defines who these words apply to . . . BELIEVERS neph . . FOLLOWERS of Chrsit. Not the whole world . . .

Exactly, "unjust", the servant represents all unsaved people. The parable is about God wanting to settle accounts, not that he already has.

No neph . . it is the parable of the unjust SERVANT - this is in the SINGULAR . not plural . . it is not the parable of the unjust servants . . but the unjust SERVANT . . .one person in the parable.

In order to make this parable fit your preconceived ideas, you are actually changing what it says.

It is about ONE Servant, who represents all saved believers who fail to forgive others . . .that makes him, and those like him, unjust before God.

No, the servent didn't repent, read the parable again. Repenting is not just begging for forgivness TALF. Repenting means that you turn away from your sins, that you make a change.

neph, I feel like we are reading two different parables . . .

The servant was FORGIVEN ALL . . . We agree that the King represents God.

This means the King forgiving the servant represents God forgiving a man of all.


Please answer this question:

How can God FORGIVE ALL if the person does not repent?

This is your catch 22. The King FORGAVE ALL . . that means this parable is about those for whom GOD FORGAVE ALL . . .

How is it possible for God to forgive all if there was no repentance?

I know you would be the first to say that without real repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins . . .

So, there had to be real repentance if the king is God and the king forgave all.

If there had been no repentance, then there could have been no forgiveness even in the parable. . .

You are ignoring this totally. . .

The servant in the parable never did that, he never repented. All he did was beg for forgivness.

How can there be forgiveness of all by the King, who is God in this parable, if there was no repentance?

The forgiviness of the king was real and total. How could this be, if the king is God and there was no repentance?

You are arguing based on semantics now, not concepts. . . and it is causing your interpretation to contradict God's character and word. There is no forgivness of sins without repentance. So, contrary to your assertion, the servant had indeed repented.

Forgiveness of sins is intimtely tied to repentance in scripture . . . this is no less true here in this parable of Jesus . . .

If you are going to ignore this, I don't know how we can move foreward here to understanding one another.

This part of the parable really is about how people will first hear about God's laws and the punishment if they are broken. Of course the servant in the parable begs for forgivness when confronted with the fact that he is about to be punished.

He was FORGIVEN ALL neph . . that implicitly means he REPENTED.

The King (God) had COMPASSION on him and FORGAVE ALL . . this means he repented. . . .

And it does not say he begged anything . . it says the servant WORSHIPPED the King:

Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. ​

How does God forgive all without repentance neph?

This is your real difficulty here in this parable . . . forgiveness happens ONLY AFTER repentance. . . . so it is clear the servant REPENTED.

The king presented the servant with the good news, but did the servant listen? We'll find out!

Ummm. . the King (God) FORGAVE . . there is nothing here that says the king preached anything to the servant at all . . you are adding to the scriptures here neph in order to make your interpretation work. Do you see this?

Wrong, the servant isn't restored into right relationship because he never repented.

Of course he is neph. . . .he no longer owes the king anything, he is not gong to be sold or put in prison or have anything bad happen. He is in the full service of the king, that paralelles the restoration of a right relationship with God after one has been forgiven.

See, you have to ignore these very simple things in order to get where you are in your interpretation . . .

What the king did in the parable is the samething that Jesus did on the cross. When Jesus died on the cross He died for everyone, for all sinners. What the king did in the parable was tell the servant the good news. He said to the servant, your debt is cancelled, just like the Holy Spirit is telling all the world right now, your debt is cancelled!!! But does the world listen? Some do, some don't.

Umm . . neph . . .the debt of the world is not cancelled . . only those who believe have their debt cancelled. . . . To say that the sins of the world are cancelled means that God has forgiven EVERYONE . .

And that my friend is UNIVERSALISM . . this is a belief that has been condemned by the Church since the beginning.

There is no forgiveness of sins without repentance.

Matt. 18:27, The servant's master took pity on him, cancelled the debt and let him go.
In reality what did God do? God took pity on all of us, cancelled our debt by sending Jesus to the cross, and then leaves it up to us on whether we're going to act upon that.

neph, that is not scriptural teaching . .that is universalism. . . .

Did the servant act upon the gift in the parable? No he did not.

Please see above. . ..

Before Jesus's act of atonement men were required to pay the debt.

Men were never required to pay the debt, God had always made a way for the forgiveness of sins . . .

After the act of atonement men are not required to pay the debt but only believe, have faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. This is what this part of the parable is talking about.

No neph . . this is what your indoctrination is trying to make it be about . a big difference . ..

No he does not represent the forgiven sinner.

Of course he does, he has been forgiven in actuality . . forgiven all.

There is no evidence that the servant in the parable ever repented of anything.

Yes neph, for without repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins. . . forgiveness is intimately tied to repentance in scripture . . if you have forgiveness, you have to have repentance.

Yes he begged for forgivness, that's not true repentence TALF. True repentence requires change for that is what the word repent means.

There is nothing there that said he begged for anything . .

It says he WORSHIPPED the King (God) . ..

The servant does not forgive the other fellow servant because he never repented in the first place.

That is your interpretation and judgement . . however, it does not line up with what is plainly stated . . you have to contort this parable to make it say what you want it to say. I am being blunt, but I don't know what else to do here.

He never changed. With God's plan of salvation a change is required! You must be born again. Being born again means that God has created in you a new spirit that is like Him in true righteousness and holiness. It's only with this spirit that we are ever considered born again.

Does that make you perfect and never able to sin?

See, just because you are born again, you can still sin, so the change that is begun is obviously not complete, for you are not perfect, neither am I, and neither is the servant in the parable ..

The danger is that if we give into sin after being born again, we start to stifle and choke off our relationship with god, and we can come to the point that our hearts are hardened and we actually refuse to forgive, turning back to old ways . . .

No one is completely changed upon being born again . . that is why we have to take up our crosses daily, deny ourselves daily and follow Christ.

Of course the servant represents the forgiven sinner . . all forgiven sinners can still sin and persist in sin, and fall away, just as Jesus tells us that some who believe will fall away . . . that doesn't mean they didn't at one time believe or that they hadn't at one time repented or at one time hadn't had their sins forgiven . . . The word "believe" is used in the NT of SAVING FAITH . . yet these believers fell away . . . .

Whether people accept it or not, God is Lord of this earth. Lord means owner and He ownes everything that he has ever made, even the sinner who is bound for hell.

Of course, however, God's servants are those who believe.

In reality, this is a picture of the final judgment. Everyone will have to give an account for themselves at the judgment seat of God. If you haven't accepted the gift of forgivness that Jesus paid then you will be punished.

It is a picture of one facet of the final judgement, and how believers will be judged and on what . . . .

God is going to say to us, I gave you the gift, your debts were cancelled but you refused to believe it. You did not accept the gift so I can't accept you.

No . . God is going to say, "Because you did not forgive as I forgave you, I am cancelling My forgiveness of your personal sins"

In the parable the King tells the servant that he should've had the same mercy on the other servant as he had extended towards him.

The mercy that had been extended towards him was a real, actual, and ful forgiveness of ALL sins . . . that is what happens to a believer, not what happens to an unbeliever neph . . .

In reality God will say to everyone who did not accept God's gift of salvation the same thing if they were unforgiving in their life. He's going to say 'I sent my only begotten Son into this world so that you would be debt free. I showed you mercy but you couldn't do the same?

Ummm. . you have jumped a necessary step here . . we don't even get to 'couldn't you do the same' . . . we haven't even crossed the "you rejected My son's atoning death on the cross" . . . You went from point A to point C and jumped over point B

God doesn't reverse what was done on the cross TALF, the gift is always there for us to cling to.

No neph . . God does not reverse what was done on the cross . . .

But He will remember your sins if, from your heart, you do not forgive others . . . the same with all believers.


I think the rest of your post just goes over the same material as above, so I will end here . . if there is something in the rest of your post you think I need to address, let me know.


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[nephilimiyr]

Well thereselittleflower, what we have going on here between the two of us doesn't surprise me, we disagree on mostly everything. I know what you're saying because I was taught it once myself and even believed it. I have repented though, in other words, I have changed my mind and have turned from that belief.

I didn't come to this thread to argue and that is what this discussion is starting to become and or if I don't stop it now it will become nothing but arguements flung back and forth. I also didn't come to this thread to be retaught Catholic doctrine or theology. I came to this thread to share what I believe. If I wanted to argue I would still be posting in the General Theology forum. If people here in this SF/P/C forum think this place is bad and have never ventured over to the GT forum for any length of time, all I can say is that you haven't seen nothin yet! Yes, it's that bad!

No, I came here to share my beliefs, not to argue or talk down to people. You say I'm wrong and that's fine but now that I feel my goal has been met I kindly bid you ado and, of course, blessings in Christ.

For anyone who may still be confussed by what I have said and honestly want a better explanation, please ask and I'll see if I can't make myself better understood.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well thereselittleflower, what we have going on here between the two of us doesn't surprise me, we disagree on mostly everything. I know what you're saying because I was taught it once myself and even believed it. I have repented though, in other words, I have changed my mind and have turned from that belief.

I didn't come to this thread to argue and that is what this discussion is starting to become and or if I don't stop it now it will become nothing but arguements flung back and forth. I also didn't come to this thread to be retaught Catholic doctrine or theology.

neph, why do you presume this is a Catholic/Protetant argument, that this is something limited to Catholic doctrine or theology? What I am sharing is found also within Protestsantism, there is no agreement on this issue in Protestantism.

It is called "the Conditional Security of the Believer".

I came to my understanding of salvation long before Catholicism was even a remote possibility in my mind, from prayer and reading scripture, from what the Holy Spirit revealed to me, so I am speaking of what I learned from scripture and the Holy Spirit.

I came to this thread to share what I believe. If I wanted to argue I would still be posting in the General Theology forum. If people here in this SF/P/C forum think this place is bad and have never ventured over to the GT forum for any length of time, all I can say is that you haven't seen nothin yet! Yes, it's that bad! No, I came here to share my beliefs, not to argue or talk down to people. You say I'm wrong and that's fine but now that I feel my goal has been met I kindly bid you ado and, of course, blessings in Christ.

neph, you know you have told me I am wrong too . . I have simply tried to get you to explain how your view is truly supported by scripture by asking questions and pointing out insconsistancies I see in your interpretation . . .I honestly do not see how anyone approaching this parable can come to the conclusion you have without ignoring key elements of it, and if you no longer want to discuss this, that is fine, but I would still welcome dialogue.

For anyone who may still be confussed by what I have said and honestly want a better explanation, please ask and I'll see if I can't make myself better understood.

I am still confused at how you have arrived at your conclusion. . . .
One of the most difficult isssues for me is your understanding of whom Jesus indentifiedhe was targetting with this warning . . It appears obvious to me that He is targeting BELIEVERS . . for he said

"so will my heavenly Father do to YOU . . . Peter and the disciples, believers, followers of Christ, not unbelievers

. . . if YOU . . Peter and the disciples, believers, followers of Christ, not unbelievers

. . do not forgive . . . "​

To me, discussion like htis is about having our understanding open to examination and challenge by another. . . for me neph, there has to be inherent logical consistancy, and if I don't find such inherent logical consistancy in somone's position, I point it out to have further discussion.




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[lismore]

Hi there

Hows it going!

lismore, this is just dispenationalist indoctrination speaking.
.

Never heard of that. Anything you cannot give an answer to is indoctrinated? What if all your sharings are catholic indoctrinations? Please pause for a second and consider that.............

In the context you are speaking of WE will be judging between the sheep and goats ..........................therefore we cannot be the sheep and the goats as well. You cannot become a sheep through good works or a goat through no good works.


1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Jude

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

God Bless You

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi there

Hows it going!




Never heard of that.

OK, you may not have heard the term "dispenationalism" before, but just because you have never heard of that term that doesn't mean that you are not indocrinated to that eschatological belief system.

Anything you cannot give an answer to is indoctrinated?

What is it I am not able to give an answer to? Do you want to get into the guts of dispensationalist eschatology?

What if all your sharings are catholic indoctrinations? Please pause for a second and consider that.............

Perhaps you should read what I wrote to neph above before jumping to conclusions like this . .

In the context you are speaking of WE will be judging between the sheep and goats

Jesus tells us that HE will be judging the sheep and the goats . .. no saints there judging . . . only Christ . .

Please read that last parable in Matthew 25 and show me where it tells us that anyone other than God will be judging the sheep and the goats.

The bible tells us we will judge the angels . . . not humans. .

..........................therefore we cannot be the sheep and the goats as well. You cannot become a sheep through good works or a goat through no good works.

False assumptions lead to false conclusions . . .again, show me where there is anyone but God judging the sheep and goats in Matthew 25

1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

And here you prove my point . . we will judge the angels. . not human beings in the final judgement. . God is the judge, not human beings.

And here is an example of proof texting, for you have taken this text out of its context to try to support saints judging other humans in the afterlife . . .

But this text is not talking about this at all. It is talking about jugding between believers IN THIS LIFE - not the afterlife - regarding disputes we have NOW . .

This is about setting up a judicial system WITHIN the Church to decide disputes between believers in the here and now . .

It has absolutely nothing to do with saints judging people in the afterlife.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

And how does this fit into your position exactly? I'm not seeing any support for your position in this verse . . .

Jude

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

God Bless You

Look again . . the LORD is coming . . .to judge everone . .

When a King comes into a city, he has an entourage -

When Christ returns, He will have thousands of his holy ones in attendance.

The second verse itself indicates who the judge is . . It refers to the judge as "HIM" . . the judge . . singular, not plural . . the one whom the sinners have spoken against. . .

And regarding the "holy ones" here is another translation:

(CEV) Enoch was the seventh person after Adam, and he was talking about these people when he said: Look! The Lord is coming with thousands and thousands of holy angels

(GNB) It was Enoch, the seventh direct descendant from Adam, who long ago prophesied this about them: "The Lord will come with many thousands of his holy angels
​

It is dispensationalist teaching and thinking that tries to mandate that "holy ones" refers to "raptured" saints. . . .

Your use of the verse regarding the 1000 years in Revelation is one of the "foundationa" verses for dispenationalist teaching, which interprets it as saying that Christ is going to return for a literal 1000 years to reign on earth.

But, the same book says Christ is reigning NOW over the kings of the earth and has been since the Church bagan - going on 2000 years . . not a literal 1000:

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead [ones] and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the One loving us and having bathed us from our sins in His blood.​

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[nephilimiyr]

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[thereselittleflower]

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