Let's Talk About Hell

[Timothew]

Here is the definition of death, for anyone who doesn't know it already:
Definition of DEATH

1: the irreversible cessation of all vital functions especially as indicated by permanent stoppage of the heart, respiration, and brain activity : the end of life—see brain death

2: the cause or occasion of loss of life <drinking was the death of him>

3: the state of being dead <in death as in life>

That's not just my definition, that's Merriam-Webster.

 

[Der Alte]

Here is the definition of death, for anyone who doesn't know it already:
Definition of DEATH

1: the irreversible cessation of all vital functions especially as indicated by permanent stoppage of the heart, respiration, and brain activity : the end of life—see brain death

2: the cause or occasion of loss of life <drinking was the death of him>

3: the state of being dead <in death as in life>

That's not just my definition, that's Merriam-Webster.

Is that the Biblical definition? Is that what happens every time death is mentioned in scripture? How about dead in your sins? In the day that you eat of the tree dying you will die?

 

[Timothew]

Is that the Biblical definition? Is that what happens every time death is mentioned in scripture? How about dead in your sins? In the day that you eat of the tree dying you will die?

That's the definition. When you change it, you change the meaning of what is written.

Why not change more definitions while we are at it?
The wages of sin is death.
Death = Separation
wages = joy
sin = Miami

Now the sentence can say, "The joy of Miami is separation."

 

[Der Alte]

That's the definition. When you change it, you change the meaning of what is written.

Why not change more definitions while we are at it?
The wages of sin is death.
Death = Separation
wages = joy
sin = Miami

Now the sentence can say, "The joy of Miami is separation."

Instead of directly addressing my, questions you launch into a meaningless sophomoric tirade. You always quote "the wages of sin is death" and omit "it is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment" The judgment is not going away no matter how much you ignore it.

 

[Studious One]

Instead of directly addressing my, questions you launch into a meaningless sophomoric tirade. You always quote "the wages of sin is death" and omit "it is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment" The judgment is not going away no matter how much you ignore it.

That verse is interesting. 'And as it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment.'

How many appointment's are there for man to die? Only once.

And after that? Not judgment and death, ... judgment.

The wicked man who has been resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne will indeed experience the judgment that the author of Hebrews said would be in man's future. (Heb. 9:27)

He will not die again, for he will have a resurrected body. A body that has put on incorruption. He will have put on immortality. (1 Cor. 15:53)

The wicked will be cast into hell (Ps. 9:17) They will be tormented for ever (Rev. 14:11)

 

[godisreal36]

You shall not die is the first lie that Satan told humanity yet his first lie that was recorded i think was that Satan Himself was as Good as God. The father of many lies tells us both of his first two all the time. I however reject these lies because the HS agrees with the Word. He has others he tries to get me to believe. I think myself good sometimes so thats Satan's first lie he told himself concerning him being as good as God. The first one seems to be his best actually because i must reject it constantly. Wow that's deep considering i always knew this was a lie yet thought i wasn't a liar because i never lie and that's yet another lie.what a crafty liar Satan really is. Praise the Lord for His HS who always agrees with the Word.. i never considered myself a liar before, till now. This whole time he had me thinking i did at least something right in not lying. As i said very crafty

 

[Studious One]

Thayer's has a good definition of what death is. Much closer to the facts than the Merriam-Webster definition given earlier in this thread.

Title : Thayer’s Greek Definitions
Edition : Third
Copyright : Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1999, Parsons Technology, Inc.

G2288 &#952;&#945;&#769;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962; thanatos Thayer Definition:

1) the death of the body
1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
1b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell
1b1) the power of death
1c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness, i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin

2) metaphorically, the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name
2a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell

3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell

4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2348
Citing in TDNT: 3:7, 312

Total KJV Occurrences: 118
death, 115 Matt 4:16, Matt 10:21, Matt 15:4, Matt 16:28, Matt 20:18, Matt 26:38, Matt 26:66, Mark 7:10, Mark 9:1, Mark 10:33, Mark 13:12, Mark 14:34, Mark 14:64, Luke 1:79, Luke 9:26-27 (2), Luke 22:33, Luke 23:15, Luke 23:22, Luke 24:20, John 5:24, John 8:51-52 (2), John 11:4, John 11:13, John 12:33, John 18:32, John 21:19, Acts 2:24, Acts 13:28, Acts 22:4, Acts 25:11, Acts 25:25, Acts 26:31, Acts 28:18, Rom 1:32, Rom 5:10, Rom 5:12 (2), Rom 5:14, Rom 5:17, Rom 5:21, Rom 6:3-5 (3), Rom 6:9, Rom 6:16, Rom 6:21, Rom 6:23, Rom 7:5, Rom 7:10, Rom 7:13 (2), Rom 7:24, Rom 8:2, Rom 8:6, Rom 8:38, 1 Cor 3:22, 1 Cor 11:26, 1 Cor 15:21, 1 Cor 15:26, 1 Cor 15:54-56 (3), 2 Cor 1:9-10 (2), 2 Cor 2:16 (2), 2 Cor 3:7, 2 Cor 4:11-12 (2), 2 Cor 7:10, Phil 1:20, Phil 2:8 (2), Phil 2:27, Phil 2:30, Phil 3:10, Col 1:22, 2 Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9 (2), Heb 2:14-15 (3), Heb 5:7, Heb 7:23, Heb 9:15-16 (2), Heb 11:5, James 1:15, James 5:20, 1 John 3:14 (2), 1 John 5:16-17 (4), Rev 1:18, Rev 2:10-11 (2), Rev 2:23, Rev 6:8 (2), Rev 9:6 (2), Rev 12:11, Rev 13:3, Rev 18:8, Rev 20:6, Rev 20:13-14 (3), Rev 21:8
deadly, 2 Rev 13:3, Rev 13:12
deaths, 1 2 Cor 11:23

 

[Timothew]

Instead of directly addressing my, questions you launch into a meaningless sophomoric tirade. You always quote "the wages of sin is death" and omit "it is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment" The judgment is not going away no matter how much you ignore it.

My "meaningless sophomoric tirade" was an illustration of how you can make the bible say whatever you want it to say just by ignoring the definitions of the words it uses.

I agree, after death comes the judgment.
The judgement comes at the resurrection. Those who have done good receive a resurrection of life. Those who have done evil receive a resurrection of judgment.
And Paul tells us what this judgment is when he wrote "the wages of sin is death."

Also Jesus said "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." If those who hear Jesus and believe Him have eternal life, how do those who do not believe Jesus also get eternal life? They will not pass out of death into life.

So it is appointed unto man to die once and then the judgment, and we see that the judgment is death. You see from the next verse (Hebrews 9:28) that Christ has been offered once to bear the sins of many. His death is the payment for our sins. The judgment for our sins is death, but Jesus offered His life for us. His death substitutes for the death we owe.

That is why after the resurrection we do not fear the second death spoken of in Revelation. It's called the second death because it happens after the first death. Since the resurrection happens after the first death and not after the second death, any who die the second death will not be resurrected a second time. Their death is eternal. This is why the bible speaks of eternal condemnation. The condemnation which results in the second death is eternal, since the second death is eternal.

Thayer's definition of thanatos is influenced by the theory of eternal torment. Since the theory of eternal torment is unbiblical, so are the parts of his definition that include eternal torment. Thayer's first definition is correct, the death of the body.

 

[Der Alte]

My "meaningless sophomoric tirade" was an illustration of how you can make the bible say whatever you want it to say just by ignoring the definitions of the words it uses.

I agree, after death comes the judgment.
The judgement comes at the resurrection. Those who have done good receive a resurrection of life. Those who have done evil receive a resurrection of judgment.
And Paul tells us what this judgment is when he wrote "the wages of sin is death."

Also Jesus said "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." If those who hear Jesus and believe Him have eternal life, how do those who do not believe Jesus also get eternal life? They will not pass out of death into life.

So it is appointed unto man to die once and then the judgment, and we see that the judgment is death. You see from the next verse (Hebrews 9:28) that Christ has been offered once to bear the sins of many. His death is the payment for our sins. The judgment for our sins is death, but Jesus offered His life for us. His death substitutes for the death we owe.

That is why after the resurrection we do not fear the second death spoken of in Revelation. It's called the second death because it happens after the first death. Since the resurrection happens after the first death and not after the second death, any who die the second death will not be resurrected a second time. Their death is eternal. This is why the bible speaks of eternal condemnation. The condemnation which results in the second death is eternal, since the second death is eternal.

Thayer's definition of thanatos is influenced by the theory of eternal torment. Since the theory of eternal torment is unbiblical, so are the parts of his definition that include eternal torment. Thayer's first definition is correct, the death of the body.

You want to argue with Thayer? How about we discuss the definitions in LSJ and BAGD? As with all false religious groups you make your own subjective opinion the final authority on what scripture "really" says and what Greek words "really" mean and when a source contradicts you then we should accept your unsupported opinion that they are wrong! Your entire argument is driven by your own assumptions/presuppositions as stated in your final sentence.

Paul did NOT say that the wages of sin is two deaths! Scripture does NOT say that there is a death which follows being thrown into the LOF. The passage in question says, "shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Having their part in the LOF is the second death. The first death is not eternal annihilation, and nothing in scripture states that the second death is eternal annihilation. In fact other passages in Revelation state that those in the LOF are tormented day and night forever, 20:10, 14:10-11.

Edited to add: The definition of &#952;&#940;&#957;&#8112;&#964;&#959;&#962;/Thanatos from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker lexicon of NT Greek.

&#952;&#940;&#957;&#8112;&#964;&#959;&#962; ; 1 aor. ejqanavtwsa, pass. ejqanatwvqhn ( Aeschyl. , Hdt. +; LXX ; Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ) put to death.

1. lit. tinav kill someone, hand someone over to be killed, esp. of the death sentence and its execution (as X. , An. 2, 6, 4; Pla. , Leg. 9, p. 872 C ; Aelian , V.H. 5, 18; Ex 21:12 ff ; Sus 28 ; 1 Macc 1:57 ; 4 Macc 8:25 ) Mt 10:21 ; 26:59 ; 27:1 ; Mk 13:12 ; 14:55 . The obj. acc. is easily supplied in qanatwvsousin ejx uJmw`n they will put some of you to death Lk 21:16 . Pass. 2 Cor 6:9 (for the play on words ajpoqnhv/skonte". . . kai; mh; qanatouvmenoi cf. Ps.- Callisth. 1, 33, 11 p. 36, 21 qanw;n kai; mh; qanwvn ); 1 Pt 3:18 ; 1 Cl 12:2; B 12:2; Dg 5:12. Be in danger of death Ro 8:36 (Ps 43:23 .— Vi. Aesopi W c. 9 of ill treatment over a period of time: kata; pa`san ajpokteivnei" hJmevran ).

2. fig .— a. of spiritual or eternal death 1 Cl 39:7 (Job 5:2 ); Hs 9, 20, 4. q. tina; e[n tini bring death to someone by someth. m 12, 1, 3; cf. 12, 2, 2.
b. of the death which the believer dies through mystic unity w. the body of the crucified Christ; tw`/ novmw/ ( dat. of disadvantage) Ro 7:4 (on rabbinic associations s. WDiezinger, NovT 5, ’62, 268-98).
c. put to death, extirpate ti; someth. ta;" pravxei" tou` swvmato" Ro 8:13 .*

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

 

[Optimax]

I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell. I believe that "hell" is the darkness outside of heaven where the evil souls are because they can't get into heaven, and because they are evil they torment eachother. But, not a pit of fire. I just don't believe that God would create such a place and then threaten to send people there to roast forever. O course, I could be wrong, it's just my own opinion.

What do you think?

Let's Talk About Hell

OK!

It is very hot and you do not want to go there.

The fire that burns unquenchable is not a physical fire that burns wood.

Physical things have no effect on the spirits of dead men.

Physical fire does no harm to the spirit of dean men.

What torments spirits must be spiritual.

Those that go there do get out.

However it is a out of the frying pan into the fire type thing.

The Book of Revelation records the Great White Throne Judgment in which those that are in hell are cast into the Lake of Fire!

Not good!

Don't chose to go there!

Jesus is our answer!!

 

[Optimax]

Here is the definition of death, for anyone who doesn't know it already:
Definition of DEATH

1: the irreversible cessation of all vital functions especially as indicated by permanent stoppage of the heart, respiration, and brain activity : the end of life—see brain death

2: the cause or occasion of loss of life <drinking was the death of him>

3: the state of being dead <in death as in life>

That's not just my definition, that's Merriam-Webster.

That is Websters definition.

That is not the way scripture defines death.

Consider what this says:

Rev 20:11-14

11 And I saw a great white throne , and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV


Verse 14 says that being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

That is eternal separation from God.

The death that Adam died on the day he disobeyed was spiritual death.

Spiritual death is separation from God.

Physical death is separation of the spirit and soul from the body.

The physical body's stoppage of function is what Webster was attempting to define.

Man does not cease to exist.

Man exist forever from the time he is conceived.

The question is where will he be.

That brings us back to the OP.

Hell is one option.

Choose Life, living eternally with God, not separated from Him.

 

[Noxot]

I can not agree with hell meaning "obliteration" ( even though I sometimes want it to mean that). I can not agree with that because the Word says:

Rev 14:11 (ABPen)
(14:11) And the smoke of their torment into the eons of eons ascends; and they have not rest day and night, the ones doing obeisance to the beast and his image, and if anyone takes the imprint of its name.

when something ascends, it means movement. obliteration does not have movements. and how can one have torment if he does not exist? however I can not tell what this divine mystery of verse 14:11 means, only that it does seem to be a mystery. also to note is that it mentioned "day and night" which signify a pattern (we know that on this planet called earth, that we have day and then night and then day and then night) or at least signifies some sort of "periodS of time" (though I can not tell what kind of day and night this is!) because day and night seem to be signified as different periods.

Jer 33:19-20 (ESV)
(33:19) The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: (33:20) &#8220;Thus says the Lord: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,

the words "doing obeisance to" is translated from the word "&#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#959;&#973;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962;":

G4352 &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#941;&#969; proskuneo (pros-koo-neh'-o) v.
1. to fawn or crouch to
2. to fall face down (prostrate) in adoration
3. a physical act of lowering oneself in humble submission with an attitude of utmost adoration or respect

which is not the same as ascending. therefore (to me) it signifies some sort of change.

TLDR to me hell looks like an on-going process involving Christ moving.

 

[Der Alte]

I can not agree with hell meaning "obliteration" ( even though I sometimes want it to mean that). I can not agree with that because the Word says:

Rev 14:11 (ABPen)
(14:11) And the smoke of their torment into the eons of eons ascends; and they have not rest day and night, the ones doing obeisance to the beast and his image, and if anyone takes the imprint of its name.

when something ascends, it means movement. obliteration does not have movements. and how can one have torment if he does not exist? however I can not tell what this divine mystery of verse 14:11 means, only that it does seem to be a mystery. also to note is that it mentioned "day and night" which signify a pattern (we know that on this planet called earth, that we have day and then night and then day and then night). and so we see a repeating process happening. and we know that obliteration has no repeating process.

the words "doing obeisance to" is translated from the word "&#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#959;&#973;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962;":

G4352 &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#941;&#969; proskuneo (pros-koo-neh'-o) v.
1. to fawn or crouch to
2. to fall face down (prostrate) in adoration
3. a physical act of lowering oneself in humble submission with an attitude of utmost adoration or respect

which is not the same as ascending. therefore (to me) it signifies some sort of change.

The phrase "the ones doing obeisance to the beast and his image" refers to those who follow the beast, etc. in this life.

 

[Noxot]

The phrase "the ones doing obeisance to the beast and his image" refers to those who follow the beast, etc. in this life.

and it looks like they follow him right to hell.

 

[Timothew]

That is Websters definition.

That is not the way scripture defines death.

Consider what this says:

Rev 20:11-14

11 And I saw a great white throne , and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV


Verse 14 says that being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

That is eternal separation from God.

The death that Adam died on the day he disobeyed was spiritual death.

Spiritual death is separation from God.

Physical death is separation of the spirit and soul from the body.

The physical body's stoppage of function is what Webster was attempting to define.

Man does not cease to exist.

Man exist forever from the time he is conceived.

The question is where will he be.

That brings us back to the OP.

Hell is one option.

Choose Life, living eternally with God, not separated from Him.

Your bible has a inspired glossary in the back. Too Cool! Where can I get one? I'm stuck using the regular definitions for words. You know, the definitions that the translators were using.

What is the approved, inspired definition for "second" as in "second death"?

 

[Optimax]

Your bible has a inspired glossary in the back. Too Cool! Where can I get one? I'm stuck using the regular definitions for words. You know, the definitions that the translators were using.

What is the approved, inspired definition for "second" as in "second death"?

When one is tossed into the lake of fire for ever. That means they are there forever.

They are not with God as Christians are.

Therefore they are separated from Him.

God called all that the second death.

When Adam disobeyed he was tossed out of the garden.

Needed reconciling with God which Jesus made possible.

Adam was separated from God.

We are born separated from God therefore Jesus told us that we must be born again.

By accepting Jesus we are born into God's Family(a spiritual birth) and reconciled to Him, no longer separated.

 

[Timothew]

Noxot, What is TLDR? The thread or a particular post?
I usually try to keep my posts under 100 words. I'm not sure that my last reply to Der Alter about the meanings of words and the meaning of "and after this the judgment" was under 100.
If it was TLDR, sorry about that. I'm usually brief, but not always.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Der Alter Instead of directly addressing my, questions you launch into a meaningless sophomoric tirade. You always quote "the wages of sin is death" and omit "it is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment" The judgment is not going away no matter how much you ignore it.

Tis true

http://www.christianforums.com/t7461092-9/#post54554117
Here come da judge......Daniel 7:9,10

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks "be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One-sitting upon the Throne and from the wrath of the Lambkin

Reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white Throne and Him Who sat on it,
from Whose Face the land and the Heaven fled away. And place not was found to them.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7435912-5/#post54001293
Face of One sitting upon the throne Reve 6/20

 

[Timothew]

When one is tossed into the lake of fire for ever. That means they are there forever.

They are not with God as Christians are.

Therefore they are separated from Him.

God called all that the second death.

When Adam disobeyed he was tossed out of the garden.

Needed reconciling with God which Jesus made possible.

Adam was separated from God.

We are born separated from God therefore Jesus told us that we must be born again.

By accepting Jesus we are born into God's Family(a spiritual birth) and reconciled to Him, no longer separated.

"In him was life, and that life was the light of men."
Therefore, outside of Him there is no life.

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself."
We don't have life in ourselves, we can only obtain life from the source of life, God Himself. If we are separated from God, we are separated from life, if we are separated from life, we are dead.

"Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;"
Jesus is the Life, whoever believes in Him will have life, contrariwise, whoever rejects Him rejects life.

"Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Again, Jesus is the Life.

"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."
It is not possible to have eternal life outside of the source of life, which is God.

 

[Optimax]

"In him was life, and that life was the light of men."
Therefore, outside of Him there is no life.

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself."
We don't have life in ourselves, we can only obtain life from the source of life, God Himself. If we are separated from God, we are separated from life, if we are separated from life, we are dead.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
Jesus is the Life, whoever believes in Him will have life, contrariwise, whoever rejects Him rejects life.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Again, Jesus is the Life.

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
It is not possible to have eternal life outside of the source of life, which is God.