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Let's Talk About Hell

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Der Alte

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I believe that the belief of an eternal hell is a construction of the matrix of lies. something that has either a beginning or an end can not be eternal (unless it partakes of God, then it can at least be forevermore). since hell has a beginning, and since its purpose is made for those that are evil, it follows that since evil will end, that hell will also end. evil has a beginning, as God is not evil. since God hates evil, he will destroy evil and so it will not be forever. so hell would have no purpose to exist forever. so hell is limited to a beginning and an end, and that is not an eternity because eternity has no beginning or end.

so I want to point out that when the word "aeon" is used, it sometimes is used as the word "eternity" (God is without beginning or end) and it is sometimes used in a more "temporal" manner i.e. long periods of time, as your own post have said.

therefore I propose that there is a web of lies about conceptions of things and this web of lies is a matrix-like illusion made to hold the somatic christians in place and to try to pull down the spiritual christians as well as hindering those that are not christians by telling them terrible things (like how God is gonna make you suffer forever and ever in hell). but rather I say that our God is a loving God and would not make created being suffer forever and ever. because "forever and ever" for sins we did in a limited space of movements should not be punished with an infinite space of movements of hurt, sorrow, pain and suffering. but rather corrected and healed with some remedy that only God has in his plan that is above our thoughts.

I see several insults in this tirade but nothing of substance, just a lot of unsupported opinions. Only one sentence addresses my posts in a vague way. If there is a matrix of lies then it started in Judaism long before Christianity. The Jews before and during the time of Christ believed there was a place prepared by God for the eternal, unending, fiery punishment of the unrighteous and they called it Gehenna and Sheol. More of my previous posts on this topic.

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!
 
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Hairy Tic

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probably because it makes the OP feel better..You'd be surprised how many people shape their beliefs around their feelings.




So your asking if there will be corporeal fire in hell?? Thomas Aquinas writes an interesting exposition on it

Whether the fire of hell will be corporeal?

Objection 1: It would seem that the fire of hell whereby the bodies of the damned will be tormented will not be corporeal. For Damascene says (De Fide Orth. iv): The devil, and "demons, and his men" [*Cf. 2 Thess. 2:3: "And the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."], namely Antichrist, "together with the ungodly and sinners will be cast into everlasting fire, not material fire, such as that which we have, but such as God knoweth." Now everything corporeal is material. Therefore the fire of hell will not be corporeal.

Objection 2: Further, the souls of the damned when severed from their bodies are cast into hell fire. But Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. xii, 32): "In my opinion the place to which the soul is committed after death is spiritual and not corporeal." Therefore, etc.

Objection 3: Further, corporeal fire in the mode of its action does not follow the mode of guilt in the person who is burned at the stake, rather does it follow the mode of humid and dry: for in the same corporeal fire we see both good and wicked suffer. But the fire of hell, in its mode of torture or action, follows the mode of guilt in the person punished; wherefore Gregory says (Dial. iv, 63): "There is indeed but one hell fire, but it does not torture all sinners equally. For each one will suffer as much pain according as his guilt deserves." Therefore this fire will not be corporeal.

On the contrary, He says (Dial. iv, 29): "I doubt not that the fire of hell is corporeal, since it is certain that bodies are tortured there."
Further, it is written (Wis. 5:21): "The . . . world shall fight . . . against the unwise." But the whole world would not fight against the unwise if they were punished with a spiritual and not a corporeal punishment. Therefore they will be punished with a corporeal fire.

I answer that, There have been many opinions about the fire of hell. For some philosophers, as Avicenna, disbelieving in the resurrection, thought that the soul alone would be punished after death. And as they considered it impossible for the soul, being incorporeal, to be punished with a corporeal fire, they denied that the fire whereby the wicked are punished is corporeal, and pretended that all statements as to souls being punished in future after death by any corporeal means are to be taken metaphorically. For just as the joy and happiness of good souls will not be about any corporeal object, but about something spiritual, namely the attainment of their end, so will the torment of the wicked be merely spiritual, in that they will be grieved at being separated from their end, the desire whereof is in them by nature. Wherefore, just as all descriptions of the soul's delight after death that seem to denote bodily pleasure---for instance, that they are refreshed, that they smile, and so forth---must be taken metaphorically, so also are all such descriptions of the soul's suffering as seem to imply bodily punishment---for instance, that they burn in fire, or suffer from the stench, and so forth. For as spiritual pleasure and pain are unknown to the majority, these things need to be declared under the figure of corporeal pleasures and pains, in order that men may be moved the more to the desire or fear thereof. Since, however, in the punishment of the damned there will be not only pain of loss corresponding to the aversion that was in their sin, but also pain of sense corresponding to the conversion, it follows that it is not enough to hold the above manner of punishment. For this reason Avicenna himself (Met. ix) added another explanation, by saying that the souls of the wicked are punished after death, not by bodies but by images of bodies; just as in a dream it seems to a man that he is suffering various pains on account of such like images being in his imagination. Even Augustine seems to hold this kind of punishment (Gen. ad lit. xii, 32), as is clear from the text. But this would seem an unreasonable statement. For the imagination is a power that makes use of a bodily organ: so that it is impossible for such visions of the imagination to occur in the soul separated from the body, as in the soul of the dreamer. Wherefore Avicenna also that he might avoid this difficulty, said that the soul separated from the body uses as an organ some part of the heavenly body, to which the human body needs to be conformed, in order to be perfected by the rational soul, which is like the movers of the heavenly body---thus following somewhat the opinion of certain philosophers of old, who maintained that souls return to the stars that are their compeers. But this is absolutely absurd according to the Philosopher's teaching, since the soul uses a definite bodily organ, even as art uses definite instruments, so that it cannot pass from one body to another, as Pythagoras is stated (De Anima i, text. 53) to have maintained. As to the statement of Augustine we shall say below how it is to be answered (ad 2). However, whatever we may say of the fire that torments the separated souls, we must admit that the fire which will torment the bodies of the damned after the resurrection is corporeal, since one cannot fittingly apply a punishment to a body unless that punishment itself be bodily. Wherefore Gregory (Dial. iv) proves the fire of hell to be corporeal from the very fact that the wicked will be cast thither after the resurrection. Again Augustine, as quoted in the text of Sentent. iv, D, 44, clearly admits (De Civ. Dei xxi, 10) that the fire by which the bodies are tormented is corporeal. And this is the point at issue for the present. We have said elsewhere (Q[70], A[3]) how the souls of the damned are punished by this corporeal fire.

Reply to Objection 1: Damascene does not absolutely deny that this fire is material, but that it is material as our fire, since it differs from ours in some of its properties. We may also reply that since that fire does not alter bodies as to their matter, but acts on them for their punishment by a kind of spiritual action, it is for this reason that it is stated not to be material, not as regards its substance, but as to its punitive effect on bodies and, still more, on souls.

Reply to Objection 2: The assertion of Augustine may be taken in this way, that the place whither souls are conveyed after death be described as incorporeal, in so far as the soul is there, not corporeally, i.e. as bodies are in a place, but in some other spiritual way, as angels are in a place. Or we may reply that Augustine is expressing an opinion without deciding the point, as he often does in those books.

Reply to Objection 3: That fire will be the instrument of Divine justice inflicting punishment. Now an instrument acts not only by its own power and in its own way, but also by the power of the principal agent, and as directed thereby. Wherefore although fire is not able, of its own power, to torture certain persons more or less, according to the measure of sin, it is able to do so nevertheless in so far as its action is regulated by the ordering of Divine justice: even so the fire of the furnace is regulated by the forethought of the smith, according as the effect of his art requires.
## I think that the fire of hell will be inside the damned. It won't be of chemical flames, because that goes out.

The weird thing is that threads about Hell never mention the real torment of Hell; fire is nothing in comparison with the loss of God. All the other punishment is secondary, & trivial.
But because most Christians are atheists, this doesn't bother us.
 
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Hairy Tic

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The thing is that while I agree with some of this, I disagree strongly with the idea that God has destined some for hell. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God is not slack concerning His promises...not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. The reason why only few are saved is because the majority will elect to be lost. Just as the Jews of old said "We will not have this Man rule over us!" so many will repeat that statement by the way they live.

God truly wants everyone to be saved. But He knows, because He knows everything, that many will be lost. This is not by design, rather it is by choice.
## If most of us are damned, what's the point of bothering with tiresome stuff like self-denial ? If we are done for, whatever we do, it makes far better sense to ignore all this Christian stuff, with its laws, prohibitions, hang-ups, threats, commands, mind-bending difficulties, & so on. We might as well enjoy this life, seeing that we won't enjoy the next. Christianity is far too negative & gloomy - it sucks the joy out of life like a vampire. If Christians were exceptional because they alone on earth did no-one harm but only good, that would be strongly in its favour - but they are as ghastly as anyone else; if not more so.

Preaching a dysevangelion of despair is a good way of destroying Christianity.
Apparently most people can have "assurance of damnation".

The Devil was in heaven and choose to rebel, taking with him 1/3 of the heavenly host who said to God "we will not have You to rule over us." If those who having been in God's very presence could reject Him, how much more so those of a fallen race who have refused, one way or another, His salvation?
## If salvation is so impossible, why bother with it ? The reaction of a lot of people to this kind of Christianity can probably be summed up as "A plague on [all] your houses".

STM that Christianity will be dead and gone within 500 years' time - it's run out of places to hide. All the contradictions & difficulties in its ideas are catching up with it, and its crimes are well-known. As for the notion of a god, that has no function now - in the future, with the progress of Science, it will have even less. It was reasonable to posit gods for natural phenomena, 5,000 years ago - but no longer; the world is too well understood for that to be necessary. Religion, including Christianity, is on an IVD, and when that is unplugged, it's done for - because it has nothing to offer except the same old stale ideas. It was seen as accounting for everything, which is why nothing remains for it to account for.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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We know what several modern religious groups, which are represented on this forum, and which did not exist until 1845 or later, believe about Hell. That is irrelevant! What did the 1st century Jews, Jesus was talking to understand when he said,
  • "You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.", Matt 5:22
  • "thy whole body should be cast into hell," Matt 5:29,
  • "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matt 13:49,
  • "cast into everlasting fire," Matt 18:8,
  • "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Matt 22:2
  • "twofold more the child of hell than yourselves," Matt 23:13
  • "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," Matt 25:41, 46
  • "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" Mar 9:43 - 48, (3X)
  • "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Luk 13;28,
  • "in hell [ . . . ] tormented in this flame . . . place of torment." Luke 16:19-31
  • "cast them into the fire, and they are burned," John 15:6
the Jews understood him to be talking about Gehenna/Hades a place prepared by God for the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous! See links to 2 previous posts, above for documentation.
 
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Der Alte

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If most of us are damned, what's the point of bothering with tiresome stuff like self-denial ? If we are done for, whatever we do, it makes far better sense to ignore all this Christian stuff, with its laws, prohibitions, hang-ups, threats, commands, mind-bending difficulties, & so on. We might as well enjoy this life, seeing that we won't enjoy the next. Christianity is far too negative & gloomy - it sucks the joy out of life like a vampire. If Christians were exceptional because they alone on earth did no-one harm but only good, that would be strongly in its favour - but they are as ghastly as anyone else; if not more so.

Preaching a dysevangelion of despair is a good way of destroying Christianity. Apparently most people can have "assurance of damnation".
## If salvation is so impossible, why bother with it ? The reaction of a lot of people to this kind of Christianity can probably be summed up as "A plague on [all] your houses".

STM that Christianity will be dead and gone within 500 years' time - it's run out of places to hide. All the contradictions & difficulties in its ideas are catching up with it, and its crimes are well-known. As for the notion of a god, that has no function now - in the future, with the progress of Science, it will have even less. It was reasonable to posit gods for natural phenomena, 5,000 years ago - but no longer; the world is too well understood for that to be necessary. Religion, including Christianity, is on an IVD, and when that is unplugged, it's done for - because it has nothing to offer except the same old stale ideas. It was seen as accounting for everything, which is why nothing remains for it to account for.

Is that why you identify yourself as a Christian and post on a Christians Only forum? Makes me think of something I read somewhere. "If you were on trial for being a Christian, is there enough evidence to convict you?"
 
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Hairy Tic

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Here is a good article I found online:
Do you believe in a Fiery Hell of Torment? Is there really a place where wicked and sinful people go to be punished after death by being burned alive forever and ever? Is this the act of an almighty God? Would he actually do something like that?
## If God is Love, and man has free will to make choices that are significant for his life, then man can say "no" to God's "Yes". And if he dies in this state, that is it. God's Love is what makes damnation possible. A less loving God would have made robots, beings unable to reject Him. As for the fire: maybe that is God's Love, experienced back-to-front, not - the right way round - as fullness of love & joy and life and fellowship and peace, but as unbearable torment. So maybe God is Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, depending on the person affected, & their capacity to known Him as He is.
Once I had the privilege of being drawn into a conversation started by two fellow co-workers. One had gone out partying with friends the previous night and seemed to lead what might appear to some as a wild lifestyle. The other was admonishing her that she had better get her life right and stop all that partying or she would be burned in hell! Then she turned and looked at me and said, isn't that right? At first I was somewhat taken aback that she thought that I was some kind of authority on the subject since I had always tried to refrain from expressing my religious or political views and opinions (that has since changed as you can see).
Anyway, this particular person always carried with them a copy of the King James Version of the Bible, which is the standard Bible that most Christians seem to aspire to.
## The vast majority of Christians are not Protestants, & don't read an English Protestant Bible from 1611/1769. So - "most Christians" ? That is unlikely.
At first I tried to skirt around the question but she insisted I respond by repeating herself. Hesitantly, I began, no, not my God who I know love and serve; he could never do anything like that. Oh my goodness, what had I done, I immediately thought as she turned and grabbed her Bible from the top of her desk (where she kept it most of the time). She quickly thumbed through it stopping to read a scripture which basically stated that God would destroy the wicked just as he had done during the time of the Israelites! There, she said proudly, looking as though she had just won the award of the day for being correct.
Here was my out! I could just smile and quietly walk away since I had no qualms with the scripture she'd just read or I could challenge her understanding of what she had just read. Me being me, I choose the latter. I have no problem with that scripture I said, what you read was the truth. At that point, she glared at me defiantly and said, but you just said that God could never do anything like that! Ok, I thought, too late to walk away now. Alright, I said, you read the scripture yourself, "He would destroy the wicked just as he had done during the time of the Israelites". Defending my position I continued, according to the dictionary, the word destroy means, "to get rid of, annihilate, and cease to exist". So, if God destroys the wicked, get rid of them, how can they be placed in a fiery hell of torment, or anyplace for that matter, when he has already destroyed them. They no longer exist! She just looked at me with utter disbelief! How dare I try to dismiss something she had believed in all her life! It is a fact, both Christians and many non-Christians believe in hell and that it is a place inhabited by demons and the wicked, after death, is punished with torment.
Definition and Origin of the word Hell
When asked to show me in her Bible where our living God says he will punish and torment sinful wicked humans, she began to read scriptures which included the use of the word hell. However, a clear and true meaning or understanding of what she read was lost in her translation of the word “hell”. The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations, however in the same verses other translations read “the grave,” the world of the dead”, etc. and not the word “hell”. In other instances, the original language words that are sometimes rendered as the word “hell” are simply transliterated or expressed with words of our alphabet but the words themselves are left un-translated. What are those words? The Hebrew word she’ohl’ and its Greek equivalent hai’des, which refer not to an individual burial place but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek word ge’en na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction.
So where did the teaching of Hellfire and Torment originate?
According to ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world is pictured as a place full of horrors and is ruled with great fierceness and strength by gods and demons”. (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581). Also, found in the religion of ancient Egypt is early evidence relating to the aspect of hell. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960 containing a introduction by E.A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161). It has also been found that even Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th Century B.C.E., came to feature both a hot and cold hell. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68). Lastly, depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic Churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots. (La civilta etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, P. 389).
## Babylonian & Assyrian beliefs did not include belief in a Hell, if by that is meant a place of post mortem punishment. Jewish belief in Sheol, & Greek references to Hades, are far more similar to B & A beliefs. IIRC, Buddhist heavens & hells are temporary - someone who is better informed will no doubt correct this.

The quotation on page 581 is based on a misunderstanding of a well-known Assyrian tablet, which shows a sick man attended by semi-divine beings called apkallus. It can be found as figure 45 in "Queries to the Sun-God", translated & edited by Ivan Starr. The lower register shows the evil goddess Lamashtu - as she was a plague-bringer, it was reasonable to show the protective figures of the fish-apkallu around the bed of the sick man. Starr's book is a translation of divination-texts, and includes queries about the health of members of the Assyrian Royal household - hence the relevance of the tablet described by Jastrow. For those with nasty suspicious minds :), here is Jastrow's text:


The religion of Babylonia and Assyria

Tablet here:
pazuzu.jpg


The figures around Lamashtu are protective spirits; they are not threatening the figure in the bed, but guarding him. So this tablet cannot be taken as evidence of the character of the underworld.

Lamashtu by her self here:

British Museum - Amulet with a figure of Lamashtu

Whoever compiled the web-page, & quoted (part of) Jastrow's mistake, was incompletely informed about Assyrian religion; that much is clear. That J. was mistaken is no discredit to him; Assyriology was a very young science in 1898. FWIW, Sumerian beliefs did not include a hell either; only a sort of Sheol. To have a good time in the hereafter, it was desirable to have plenty of sons - which was reasonable enough, since a man would be buried by his family. No family - no burial - no rest in the hereafter. For the details, with plenty of textual support, see:

The Image of the Netherworld in the Sumerian sources
, by Dina Katz.


Not that similarities matter, in one way - because the historical origin of an idea, is no guide to its theological or doctrinal or Christological or Biblical importance. This is a very simple & important distinction, that almost no-one makes. And there seems to be a tacit assumption that Christianity is undermined the moment parallels to something in it are found. Since the Incarnation was "in the fullness of time", & since Jesus is "like us in all things, sin alone excepted", & since in the Bible "historically first" does not mean "best, truest, most valuable, most legitimate", there is no reason why parallels with Christian things make those things false or bad or fake or untrue or unChristian.

And one is assuming that we are talking of genuine similarities; for many are far-fetched or false, & based on misunderstanding. There is no reason why Christians should be bothered if there are relations between what they believe OTOH, and OTO the cultures of Etruria, Egypt or Mesopotamia - such relations are interesting, and can be theologically valuable; but they are not
objections to Christ or the Church, in any way. If God is not limited to Israel, then He is able to work among other peoples: Greeks, Babylonians, Chinese, the lot; for Israel is special, not for itself, but because of the God Who graciously chose it among all the nations of the earth to be His own People

I notice that your info is from this page:

The problem with cut-&-paste posts is that the pages they rely on are often out of date, or inaccurate, or wanting in other ways. Rather a lot has happened in Assyriology since Jastrow wrote.
Although hellfire and torment seem to be deeply rooted in religious beliefs, no where can its literal existence be found as a fact of truth.
## That depends on what is meant by "literal existence".
In fact, Biblical scripture states just the opposite. It says that God torments no one. Jeremiah 32:35 supports this. This scripture states that the children of Judah decided to build a temple of fire in which to burn their children in sacrifice as an act of worship to God. But upon noticing what they were doing, "he became angry" and stated that this was something he had not requested them to do, "neither did it come into my heart". Even as an act of worship to him the thought of burning one alive was something God himself found incomprehensible, a detestable thing and not compatible with his personality.
Interesting, but not relevant here.
No, I do not believe in a Fiery Hell of Torment. This is the biggest lie ever told on God and the real roots of this slandering and dishonoring doctrine originates with the chief slanderer of God. Satan the devil, whose name by the way means “slanderer” also called “the father of the lie” by Jesus at John 8:44. There is no such place as a Fiery Hell of Torment and to tell you the truth, most clergymen, pastors, preachers, reverends, etc also know this. But it’s the shouting of the Fire and the Hell and the Brimstone from the pulpit that packs most churches.
## Catholic-bashers argue this way against Purgatory. As to this - maybe people talk about & preach about Hell because they have a healthy view of the sinfulness of sin. For some reason, that possibility seems never to be considered.
Packed churches means full collection plates and full collection plates mean that pastor, preacher or reverend can continue to live in the manner in which he has become accustomed.
## To imply that those who preach about Hell are guilty of deliberate deceit & avarice, without bringing evidence of these very serious faults, is not worthy of a decent human being - far less of Christians :(
The manners in which his parishioners have made him become accustomed. Expensive suits and shoes. A big expensive home, in some cases more than one. An expensive car, in some cases two or three. Going on vacations two or three times a year. Taking family and friends out to expensive dining and picking up the tab to further impress them. These are just some of the reasons why religious leaders have continued to jeopardize their own salvation so to speak, but scripture refers to them as "false prophets" and we should be on guard for them.
 
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Hairy Tic

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You know, you are funny. I don't need to check the Hebrew, because your own post refutes you!

Let me see if I can help you understand your own post:

You say, shaba means "to take an oath."

Now, let's take your quote of the KJV, but use that definition:

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.

Now, if God swears by himself that every tongue will take an oath unto Him ... isn't that everyone pledging their allegience to him?

You are funny. You are saying, "The King James doesn't say 'half a dozen', it says 'six.'" Six is half a dozen. And 'the entire world taking an oath unto God' is 'everyone pledging allegiance to God'. Right?
## Actually, no. Oaths had a lot of purposes - for instance, swearing on or by a holy object or person was a way of emphasising the truth of one's testimony: "AS JHWH lives", is an oath - but it need not have anything to do with allegiance. "May JHWH do so to me and more, if I do not do X" is a very strong and emphatic expression of one's purpose.

A bit OTT, but a fascinating subject :) STM the OP wins on points.
 
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Noxot

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I see several insults in this tirade but nothing of substance, just a lot of unsupported opinions. Only one sentence addresses my posts in a vague way. If there is a matrix of lies then it started in Judaism long before Christianity. The Jews before and during the time of Christ believed there was a place prepared by God for the eternal, unending, fiery punishment of the unrighteous and they called it Gehenna and Sheol. More of my previous posts on this topic.

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!

it was neither a tirade or composed of insults, if you wish to see it that way then you will simply have a false conclusion. I think it has substance, but it is hard to follow what I say, it is hard for me to put thoughts into words that other humans can understand. it looks like you do not know what I mean when I talk about the matrix of lies, as it is a huge thing and is composed of many different sub-systems. the prince of darkness is one of the evil beings behind this matrix. Extol (a band) makes a comment on the matrix:

"To comprehend the insanity
Of this grand illusion
Is unbearable"


it is a lot of lies and a lot of different false beliefs. a common saying is that: "there are many lies but only one truth"

saints use different words to explain the same thing. saints use the same words in different ways to explain different things.

however I must say that I have not the strength to go into great detail about what I think is true because sometimes all I hear is human noise (i'm talking about a certain kind of movement of the matrix). if a little mouse can not lift a 5 ton boulder off of a mans leg, does that make the boulder not there? is the mans leg mended because the mouse can not lift the boulder off the leg? all I can do is squeak and watch this terrible thing, but I better go hide soon because I hear that cats live around this place.

it does make sense to me that if most people believe something, then it is probably wrong (since most people are not wise). we (humans) distort pauls words, we distort peters words, we distort the saints words. just because a bunch of people are buying and playing with yo-yos does not mean that I too must go buy a yo-yo or play with one.

if God wants to punish people forever, then I deserve to be one of the first to be cast in the lake of fire. it would seem that wickedness has defeated the gift of Christ (God forbid) and it has taken souls (that God made) away from Him (God forbid) but I submit to you that God will destroy wickedness forever. will not all knees bow? yes it is written in the book. and so hell will not be forever. how can someone in hell bow a knee to Christ? to bow a knee to the King of kings is to follow him in words and truth and love. if some souls are obliterated in hell then how then can they bow?

I believe the eternal fire of God (God is a consuming fire, God is Love) will defeat death. since people in hell are dead, how is it that death is defeated? I believe that God will defeat death in every soul, because He is that great. this is no excuse to not follow Jesus Christ! what kind of fool would shrug off Christ and say "O well, God will save me later." ??? Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are the only way to be saved.

when ~something~ is destroyed by fire, that ~something~ still exist, it just does not exist as it used to.

thanks for the dialogue and interactions ya'll. I hope for cheese.
 
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godisreal36

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Satan is the father of many lies. Hell is real and so is Satan. The HS agrees with the Word. Satan wishes that you disagree with it. But Satan is a liar, do not listen to him. The father of many lies tells many lies to me. The closer i get to serving my Lord, the craftier his lies become. The HS is in everyone who says Jesus is Lord and He alone saves us. But Satan is in us also. Satan disagrees with the Word. Tell him he is a liar. The word is true.
 
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Timothew

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Satan has many lies. He is the father of lies.

One lie he has many believing is that they will not spend eternity in hell if they die without Christ.

No, Godisreal36 is correct.
It's in Genesis 3:4
"You won't die!" the serpent replied to the woman. (NLT)

His lie that he has people believing, is that people will still have eternal life if they die without Christ.
 
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Hairy Tic

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Is that why you identify yourself as a Christian and post on a Christians Only forum? Makes me think of something I read somewhere. "If you were on trial for being a Christian, is there enough evidence to convict you?"
## Would there be enough to convict anyone ? Good question - I have no idea; and I don't think it matters. I think my point was perfectly valid - encouraging the belief that most will be damned, is a dysevangelion; it destroys all motive for hope & obedience. Anything more joyless and wretched it is hard to imagine. As for the rest, I think Christianity is living on borrowed time. People know too much to take God seriously - they have no need for Him these days.This is very largely because of the progress of the sciences. If the world were still largely unexplored, and the forces that shape it were unknown, things might be different. This may be equally disheartening, but it has the advantage of being true. So I see nothing unChristian in saying it. :cool:
 
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S

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No, Godisreal36 is correct.
It's in Genesis 3:4


His lie that he has people believing, is that people will still have eternal life if they die without Christ.
You falsely assume that when the serpent said 'Ye shall not die' that he was speaking of never dying.

The fact is, Adam and Eve did indeed die spiritually that day that they partook of that fruit.

And yet, each of them continued to live physically for another 900 years plus.

The devil continues to lie to those who adhere to his teachings. He promises them exactly the opposite of what God promises them.

And just as God promised spiritual death to Adam in the Garden, God's promise of eternal torment in the lake of fire for those who deny Him and adhere to the teachings of satan will indeed also come to pass.

God said they will have no rest day or night and that they will suffer torments forever. Satan lies to them and tells them exactly the opposite of what God promised. And the gullible masses follow satan and his lies.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 
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Timothew

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You falsely assume that when the serpent said 'Ye shall not die' that he was speaking of never dying.

The fact is, Adam and Eve did indeed die spiritually that day that they partook of that fruit.

And yet, each of them continued to live physically for another 900 years plus.

The devil continues to lie to those who adhere to his teachings. He promises them exactly the opposite of what God promises them.

And just as God promised spiritual death to Adam in the Garden, God's promise of eternal torment in the lake of fire for those who deny Him and adhere to the teachings of satan will indeed also come to pass.

God said they will have no rest day or night and that they will suffer torments forever. Satan lies to them and tells them exactly the opposite of what God promised. And the gullible masses follow satan and his lies.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You falsely assume that I've falsely assumed something.;)

However, Paul had something different to say.
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 5:12-21 NIV, with NIV section heading)

Paul is saying that death came to the world because of one man's sin, then all sinned, so death comes to everyone. However because of the sacrifice of another man, the Lord Jesus Christ, grace comes to all. And through Him, Eternal Life to all who receive Him.

God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die.
The serpent told Eve that if she ate the fruit she would not die.
Adam and Eve ate the fruit and they died.

Who was lying? God or the serpent?

The result of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish, instead they will have eternal life. Whoever does not believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life will perish and they will not have eternal life.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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## Would there be enough to convict anyone ? Good question - I have no idea; and I don't think it matters. I think my point was perfectly valid - encouraging the belief that most will be damned, is a dysevangelion; it destroys all motive for hope & obedience. Anything more joyless and wretched it is hard to imagine. As for the rest, I think Christianity is living on borrowed time. People know too much to take God seriously - they have no need for Him these days.This is very largely because of the progress of the sciences. If the world were still largely unexplored, and the forces that shape it were unknown, things might be different. This may be equally disheartening, but it has the advantage of being true. So I see nothing unChristian in saying it.

If you want people to read your posts, why don't you use font size 3 instead of 5. They are too hard to read! If you want the text to appear larger on your own screen click "View" at the upper left then "Zoom." or "Ctrl", "Shift" "+"

Notice how many times you say "I think"? What you think without evidence is NOT relevant. You sound like every other false religion which popped up in the last 150 years or so, JW, LDS, SDA, UPCI, UU, OP, proto-WWCG, anti--trin MJ, kristadelfian, etc. Nothing but inflammatory rhetoric, empty accusations, self aggrandizement, etc. with NO, ZERO, NONE supporting evidence!
 
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S

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You falsely assume that I've falsely assumed something.;)

However, Paul had something different to say.
(Romans 5:12-21 NIV, with NIV section heading)

Paul is saying that death came to the world because of one man's sin, then all sinned, so death comes to everyone. However because of the sacrifice of another man, the Lord Jesus Christ, grace comes to all. And through Him, Eternal Life to all who receive Him.

God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die.
The serpent told Eve that if she ate the fruit she would not die.
Adam and Eve ate the fruit and they died.

Who was lying? God or the serpent?

The result of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish, instead they will have eternal life. Whoever does not believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life will perish and they will not have eternal life.
Until you grasp the reality that death is not cessation of existence but separation, you will never understand the eternal torments of the lake of fire.
 
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Timothew

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Until you grasp the reality that death is not cessation of existence but separation, you will never understand the eternal torments of the lake of fire.

Until you understand that the bible means death when the bible says death, you will never understand eternal life.

Right back at ya, pal!
 
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