Let's Talk About Hell

[Der Alte]

No. The worst kind is the intentional kind.

I had no intention of changing the meaning by snipping your well researched post down to a bite size morsel.

ALL mentions of "Torment" can be understood as "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made".

And having your error pointed out, you continue to ignore the bulk of my post. That is deliberate!

As I said in another post there is a specific Greek word for "anguish" and "sadness." The word translated "torment" or "punishment" is not that word! Had Jesus or the NT writers intended to say "sadness" and/or "anguish" they would have done so. Here is the definition of the Greek word translated "torment." Neither "sadness" nor "anguish" are part of that definition.

G931 βάσανος basanos
Thayer Definition:
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
3) torture, torment, acute pains
3a) of the pains of a disease
3b) of those in hell after death
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96​

 

[The Penitent Man]

Why is it that the idea of eternal hell is "illogical" but an eternal heaven is not? Why does no one protest that nothing we do in this finite life could ever merit an infinite reward?

 

[Duckybill]

The Bible is to be understood spiritually,

Are you implying that none of the Bible means what it says?

 

[Duckybill]

ALL mentions of "Torment" can be understood as "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made".

There will certainly be sadness that will NEVER end, along with the torment in the eternal fire. There would be no need for EVERLASTING FIRE otherwise.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[andross77]

Why is it that the idea of eternal hell is "illogical" but an eternal heaven is not? Why does no one protest that nothing we do in this finite life could ever merit an infinite reward?

EXCELLENT point! but the people arguing for annhilationism will just say that since God is love and merciful and full of grace He wants to give us something we don't deserve.

i tend to form my beliefs which has the most comprehensive biblical support and appears to take the WHOLE Bible into context. That seems to be what Der Alter has been doing while the "other" side just keeps saying what they "feel" or they don't like the idea of this type of God or in their definition of "love" a loving God can't meet out eternal punishment for a finite life even if that's what justice calls for when there is sin against an infinite God.

I like to stand on Bible verses and God's Word, not wishful thinking or my own logic/reasoning. But that's just me.

 

[martymonster]

Are you implying that none of the Bible means what it says?

I'm not implying anything, I'm saying point blank that the scriptures mean what they mean, not what they say.

If the scriptures mean what they say then most of it is just a history lesson, and a not very interesting at that!

 

[FredVB]

I have taken the position of the Bible, where eternal is said, eternal is meant. Timothew, who when I responded initially to him sounded like he was just having questions and was open to the answers, posted what he said was the correct transliteration from the Greek. I have the transliteration for myself, with Greek lexicon. The passage from Mark is correctly transliterated at the end as "but is liable to eternal judgment". "aiona" and "aioniou" are best translated as "eternity" and "eternal". In Matthew, "aionion" in both places means the same thing in both places by necessity of the parallelism in the Greek, so it is eternal, or if you argue that you have a limited life in the hereafter, but that is not the Greek meaning. In the other cases, "eis aionas aionan" and "eis tous aionaston aionan" are making a stronger saying in Greek, the emphasis is correctly rendered "for ever and ever".

I have said before and will again that as hell exists does not mean that any persons in this world before we come to the hereafter have a true picture of it. Descriptions in the Bible are picturesque, to put us in position to truly recoil from a destiny there, so that we might respond to God's grace to deliver us from sin, its power, AND that destiny, to be with him in blissful fellowship for eternity. But in his perfection God is totally just, all sin is always paid for. Allowances are made for the degree of knowledge one has, but judgment includes total fairness to each person for all that they have done, and so there are different degrees one may suffer in going to hell, but as it is an eternity, no one should want to go there, and knowledge of God's grace in Christ has gone forth, and for those who are searching, God gives them the grace, which had made searching possible, to know more and find the possibility of salvation from God. But anything we can do can never save us.

If the Bible does not mean what it says, we have no realistic basis for faith, and what you believe and what you say the Spirit shows you is only subjective.

 

[Duckybill]

I'm not implying anything, I'm saying point blank that the scriptures mean what they mean, not what they say.

If the scriptures mean what they say then most of it is just a history lesson, and a not very interesting at that!

They mean what they mean, not what they say?

 

[martymonster]

They mean what they mean, not what they say?

Is there an echo in here?

 

[Duckybill]

Is there an echo in here?

I don't think you mean what you say either.

 

[Timothew]

Why is it that the idea of eternal hell is "illogical" but an eternal heaven is not? Why does no one protest that nothing we do in this finite life could ever merit an infinite reward?

Isn't that what we all are saying? No one deserves heaven, to get there it takes the Grace of God?

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not implying anything, I'm saying point blank that the scriptures mean what they mean, not what they say.

If the scriptures mean what they say then most of it is just a history lesson, and a not very interesting at that!

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”. Robert McCloskey, U.S. State Department spokesman Viet Nam press briefing

 

[Timothew]

I have taken the position of the Bible, where eternal is said, eternal is meant. Timothew, who when I responded initially to him sounded like he was just having questions and was open to the answers, posted what he said was the correct transliteration from the Greek. I have the transliteration for myself, with Greek lexicon. The passage from Mark is correctly transliterated at the end as "but is liable to eternal judgment". "aiona" and "aioniou" are best translated as "eternity" and "eternal". In Matthew, "aionion" in both places means the same thing in both places by necessity of the parallelism in the Greek, so it is eternal, or if you argue that you have a limited life in the hereafter, but that is not the Greek meaning. In the other cases, "eis aionas aionan" and "eis tous aionaston aionan" are making a stronger saying in Greek, the emphasis is correctly rendered "for ever and ever".

I have said before and will again that as hell exists does not mean that any persons in this world before we come to the hereafter have a true picture of it. Descriptions in the Bible are picturesque, to put us in position to truly recoil from a destiny there, so that we might respond to God's grace to deliver us from sin, its power, AND that destiny, to be with him in blissful fellowship for eternity. But in his perfection God is totally just, all sin is always paid for. Allowances are made for the degree of knowledge one has, but judgment includes total fairness to each person for all that they have done, and so there are different degrees one may suffer in going to hell, but as it is an eternity, no one should want to go there, and knowledge of God's grace in Christ has gone forth, and for those who are searching, God gives them the grace, which had made searching possible, to know more and find the possibility of salvation from God. But anything we can do can never save us.

If the Bible does not mean what it says, we have no realistic basis for faith, and what you believe and what you say the Spirit shows you is only subjective.

For the record, I believe the Bible means what it says. I just don't believe the Bible says what you say it says.

 

[SkyWriting]

There will certainly be sadness that will NEVER end, along with the torment in the eternal fire. There would be no need for EVERLASTING FIRE otherwise.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

"Gnashing of teeth" does not fit well with being burned by an unending fire.
Unless the "Everlasting Fire" is the fire of regret or anger or a tormented soul.

I don't wish endless flame and burning pain on even the devil. But if he must sit in solitude and think about all those he has pained forever, that seems quite fair. May he burn with regret for eternity.

 

[SkyWriting]

Why is it that the idea of eternal hell is "illogical" but an eternal heaven is not? Why does no one protest that nothing we do in this finite life could ever merit an infinite reward?

We would have to be God to merit such a reward. But we fall short.

 

[SkyWriting]

And having your error pointed out, you continue to ignore the bulk of my post. That is deliberate!

As I said in another post there is a specific Greek word for "anguish" and "sadness." The word translated "torment" or "punishment" is not that word! Had Jesus or the NT writers intended to say "sadness" and/or "anguish" they would have done so. Here is the definition of the Greek word translated "torment." Neither "sadness" nor "anguish" are part of that definition.

G931 βάσανος basanos
Thayer Definition:
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
3) torture, torment, acute pains
3a) of the pains of a disease
3b) of those in hell after death
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96​

I see nothing indicating an external blowtorch under anyone's rear end.

Each and every part of the definition suggest an internal pain.
Except for maybe #1 & #2 where there is a external force that makes the Sinner own up to the truth of his actions.

Normally people shy away from self criticism. God won't allow this.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

"Gnashing of teeth" does not fit well with being burned by an unending fire.
Unless the "Everlasting Fire" is the fire of regret or anger or a tormented soul.

I don't wish endless flame and burning pain on even the devil. But if he must sit in solitude and think about all those he has pained forever, that seems quite fair. May he burn with regret for eternity.

Why does it not fit well?

Why can it not be both? The pain of the fury of God for sin coupled with the internal restlessness of anguish of frustration and regret? Personally I think the spiritual torment of the feelings accompanied with "gnashing of teeth" are worse than mere physical anguish . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

For the record, I believe the Bible means what it says. I just don't believe the Bible says what you say it says.

Greek is not hard. Aionios and other cognates are often used interchangably with other Greek terms that W/O a doubt refer to eternity. Also, the couplet of aionios aionion MEANS ETERNAL. What someone SAYS about it matters not . . . it is not a matter of personal take on interpretation, but of historical and contextual usage. U cant get around Rev 14 meaning FOREVER unequivocally.

 

[Der Alte]

And having your error pointed out, you continue to ignore the bulk of my post. That is deliberate!

As I said in another post there is a specific Greek word for "anguish" and "sadness." The word translated "torment" or "punishment" is not that word! Had Jesus or the NT writers intended to say "sadness" and/or "anguish" they would have done so. Here is the definition of the Greek word translated "torment." Neither "sadness" nor "anguish" are part of that definition.

G931 βάσανος basanos
Thayer Definition:
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
3) torture, torment, acute pains
3a) of the pains of a disease
3b) of those in hell after death
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96​

I see nothing indicating an external blowtorch under anyone's rear end.

Smoke and mirrors! Now you see it now you don't! Neither the post I was responding to nor my response had anything to do with this answer. I was responding to your claim that, "ALL mentions of "Torment" can be understood as "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made"". The word translated torment, defined above, does NOT mean "sadness," or "anguish!"

Each and every part of the definition suggest an internal pain.
Except for maybe #1 & #2 where there is a external force that makes the Sinner own up to the truth of his actions.

Normally people shy away from self criticism. God won't allow this.

No matter how you try to twist the evidence, all the possible definitions mean physical NOT mental pain! If the writer had intended to say anguish, sadness, etc. there are specific Greek words for that.

 

[Der Alte]

Things that go bump in the night.