a supposedly loving God who would predestine the majority of humans to go to hell to be tortured forever? Doesn't make sense to me.
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I don't question the eternality of God's condemnation. It depends of what you mean by being condemned. Sodom and Gomorrah were "condemned," that is destroyed by fire.
2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly
a supposedly loving God who would predestine the majority of humans to go to hell to be tortured forever? Doesn't make sense to me.
Der Alter said:Speaking of the ECF here are a few.
A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
It can all be rephrased as eternal sadness.
Anguish overs ones mistakes can be worse than any physical torment.
Here is the true biblical point:
Matthew 13
24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "
The point is not in the punishment of the weeds, but in taking them out of the picture because they serve no good purpose.
Matthew 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
1. Jesus uses kill and destroy interchangably.
2. This verse tells us that only God can destroy/kill the soul after the death of the body.
3. It also tells us that our souls can be killed/destroyed after death, that we are not immortal.
4. It tells us what hell/gehenna does when one is thrown in, that is that the soul is destroyed/killed in the fire.
You know, I've been thinking about this all week. This concept of hell is something that I've had trouble with all of my life. How could god torture someone, but the bible says that god is love?
Well, I think I might understand it now. Hell was created for satan and his demons, not for people. God does not send you to hell, but if you don't believe in god, and you do not love god, then you go there by default because you can't hate god and be in His presence in heaven. It's just not possible.
So, people choose hell for themselves by refusing God because there are only 2 choices, heaven and everything outside of heaven, which is hell.
Now what I really want to know is after you die, is there a second chance? Once you see hell, can you repent and get out of hell?
To say Jesus uses the words interchangeably is to pretend He is flippant on the subject. He said that such post mortem destruction is an eternal fate. Maybe somebody wants to say such words are parables? Ok, but pretending it really means something other than an eternal fate seems futile.
It truly doesn't make sense, and it contradicts what the Bible clearly says.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Notice the bible does not say, "For the wages of sin is eternal torture."
Some Christians say that this is not scary enough, but the invitation is there, to come to Jesus Christ for eternal life.
This is the worst kind of dishonesty. I posted fifteen separate writings. You quoted parts of only 3, deliberately truncating them to change the meaning of what was written.
So Hell is just full of emo people?
It is because the point is not in the punishment, it is in the reconciliation of humanity, in which the ungodly will be destroyed in order to be taken out of the way and the elect will be restored to God.
Did God burn the cites of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes? Are they not an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly? This says nothing either way about eternal punishment.
<snip>
My legs are particularly insensitive to pain. So I'll still poke your eyes out before you know it.Would you be concerned if I came over to your house and pounded you knee caps with a base ball bat?
After all this life is only temporary. That is an absolutely ridiculous argument.
BTW,
What's that about drug dealer and rapists and the like, do you some how think your better than them?...<snip>
"Punishment" is the word the Bible uses, that is the word I use. When God punishes the disobedient for not obeying his commandments, that is NOT cause and effect. Because God can and does withhold punishment for those who repent. If I accidentally hit my thumb with a hammer it will bruise and swell up, each and every time, that is cause and effect.
Timothew, martymonster, and others argue from the perspective that passages from Ecclesiastes determine that death means no more consciousness, and souls will not experience suffering for any more than briefly, and passages saying otherwise must be interpreted "spiritually", with another meaning to be understood. Sky Writing, Duckybill, and Der Ater particularly, and others have shown a number of passages that would show that souls of the unsaved will suffer perpetually,
<snip>
Mark 3 29"but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation
Matthew 25 46"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Revelation 20 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14 9 ...If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
<snip>
I believe
"eternal condemnation"
"everlasting punishment"
"tormented day and night"
"the smoke of their torment"
all refers to the regret over decisions made due to not trusting God and having faith in self or man or nature instead. Regret, anguish, torment, all meaning the same concept. A pretty suitable punishment for unrepentant Sin.
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