Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Mikecpking]

Christ made a distinction between His soul, and His flesh in this verse

Acts 2:31 states, "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

His soul was in paradise, while His body was in the grave.

Actualy, it states:

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

(new international version)

You cannot read dualism into scripture. 'Psuche' stands for the whole person or the pronoun.

 

[createdtoworship]

Actualy, it states:

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

(new international version)

You cannot read dualism into scripture. 'Psuche' stands for the whole person or the pronoun.

Webster's Bible Translation
He seeing this before, spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption.

World English Bible
he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was his soul left in Hades, nor did his flesh see decay.

Young's Literal Translation
having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

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ψυχή psuchē; of unc. or.; breath, the soul:— heart(2), heartily(1), life(36), lives(7), mind(1), minds(1), person(1), persons(3), soul(33), souls(14), suspense*(1), thing(1).

Thomas, Robert L.: New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries : Updated Edition. Anaheim : Foundation Publications, Inc., 1998, 1981, S. H8674
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SOULS. (Luke 21:19) psuche (psoo-khay); Strong’s #5590: Compare “psychology,” “psychosis,” “psychiatrist,” “psychedelic.” Psuche is the soul as distinguished from the body. It is the seat of the affections, will, desire, emotions, mind, reason, and understanding. Psuche is the inner self or the essence of life. The word often denotes person or self (Acts 2:41, 43; 1 Pet. 3:20). Psuche is not dissolved by death. Body and spirit may be separated, but spirit and soul can only be distinguished.

Hayford, Jack W. ; Thomas Nelson Publishers: Hayford's Bible Handbook. Nashville : Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1995

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5590 ψυχή [psuche /psoo·khay/] n f. From 5594; TDNT 9:608; TDNTA 1342; GK 6034; 105 occurrences; AV translates as “soul” 58 times, “life” 40 times, “mind” three times, “heart” once, “heartily + 1537” once, and not translated twice. 1 breath. 1a the breath of life. 1a1 the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing. 1a1a of animals. 1a12 of men. 1b life. 1c that in which there is life. 1c1 a living being, a living soul. 2 the soul. 2a the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.). 2b the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life. 2c the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body).

Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G5590

 

[he-man]

Jesus decended into paradise of abrahams bosom to preach to the souls there and allow them the grace of the Gospel that had not yet been preached to the old testament saints.

Sorry, but he was DEAD and in the GRAVE for 3 days.

having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Acts 2:31 (YLT)

 

[createdtoworship]

Sorry, but he was DEAD and in the GRAVE for 3 days.

having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Acts 2:31 (YLT)

hades is abrahams bosom, it's a compartment of hades. So you are right about that verse.

 

[he-man]

hades is abrahams bosom, it's a compartment of hades. So you are right about that verse.

The Grave/hades is not Abraham's bosom. It is a metaphor which was expressed by Abraham as being gathered to his people awaiting the belief in the resurrection .

The begger is symbolic of Christ and his being buried in the GRAVE like Abraham

Gen 49:30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a buryingplace.

31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah

The word used in verse 26 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G5490 χάσμα chasm, gulf, hiatus, rift, separation [/FONT][/FONT]for gulf

is not the same as verse 22 Abraham's bosom[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G2859 κόλπον gulf, bay; trick; loch; basin ΜΕ: from OFr. golfe, from Ital. golfo, based on Gk kolpos ‘gulf’[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Both, simply mean that there is a seperation being gathered to his people awaiting the belief in the resurrection[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[LutheranMafia]

This didn't get any response before, so here it is again, verses that talk about an afterlife in Heaven:

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 5:12

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Matthew 6:20

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven...
Matthew 7:21

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 8:11

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:23

Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.
Luke 6:23

However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.
Luke 10:20

Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Luke 12:33

For you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.
Hebrews 10:34

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant...
Hebrews 12:22-24

​

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
Ephesians 3:14-15
​

I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:14

But our citizenship is in heaven.
Philippians 3:20

The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom.
2 Timothy 4:18

Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Hebrews 11:16

This inheritance is kept in heaven for you
1 Peter 1:4
​

 

[Timothew]

This didn't get any response before, so here it is again, verses that talk about an afterlife in Heaven:

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 5:12

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Matthew 6:20

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven...
Matthew 7:21

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 8:11

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:23

Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.
Luke 6:23

However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.
Luke 10:20

Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Luke 12:33

For you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.
Hebrews 10:34

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant...
Hebrews 12:22-24

​

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
Ephesians 3:14-15
​

I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:14

But our citizenship is in heaven.
Philippians 3:20

The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom.
2 Timothy 4:18

Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Hebrews 11:16

This inheritance is kept in heaven for you
1 Peter 1:4
​

It seems that you've quoted everything EXCEPT for an afterlife in heaven.
reward in heaven, treasures in heaven, kingdom of heaven, names are written in heaven, an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven, the heavenly Jerusalem, every family in heaven and on earth, citizenship is in heaven, a better country—a heavenly one, inheritance is kept in heaven.

Now look specifically at Phillipians 3:14. It doesn't even say heavenward.
Here is the greek, κατὰ σκοπὸν διώκω εἰς τὸ βραβεῖον τῆς ἄνω κλήσεως τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ. It says "upward", not heavenward. Ouranos (heaven) isn't even in the verse you use to prove we go to heaven at the time of our deaths, with no resurrection necessary.

Our inheritance is eternal life with Christ when we are resurrected from death by Him. I know that you don't like this, but this is what the bible says.

 

[WillieH]

Christ made a distinction between His soul, and His flesh in this verse

Acts 2:31 states, "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

His soul was in paradise, while His body was in the grave.

I already proved it over and over again in post 534

FIRST --- You can't even address the Scripture under discussion! We were speaking of the "thief & CHRIST"... and the "DAY" of crucifixtion.

In your UNSTABLE and DOUBLE MINDED thinking, ...first YOU claim "in that DAY":

(1) -- He headed south to preach IN HELL, in one breath, and in the next, you preach...

(2) -- He went to CELEBRATE with the "theif" IN the JOYS of Paradise...
Then, on top of these 2 fallacies, you...

(3) -- INVENT... UNBIBLICAL ..."compartments"... TO FALSELY accomodate all of this, ...hoping to substanciate your fairytale-like myths which are presented IN the INIQUITY and pride of the condemning and shameful tongue that you cannot control...

Your FORK TONGUED doctrine, ...exposes who you are, ...and plainly within it shows you to be UNABLE to control your CONDEMNING (GEHENNA) tongue which "ought not so to BE" -- James 3:6-10

Admittedly COPYING (cutting and pasting) your "beliefs" from others instead of SHOWING YOURSELF APPROVED via your own study -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- failing to preach the GOSPEL, which is GOOD NEWS...

Busily exalting yourSELF above others, by claiming your UNDESERVED Salvation as YOURS, and NOT THEIRS...

To be pitied... ...and certainly PRAYED for...



SECOND --- It is VERY clear in Scripture, ...that JESUS CHRIST - ROSE from the DEAD, -- Luke 16:31 -- Luke 24:46 -- ...and did NOT "go to paradise" until AFTER He had ASCENDED -- John 20:17 -- forbidding the (sinful) women to even TOUCH Him, ...then shortly after He was RESURRECTED from the state of DEATH -- Then not long after His ASCENSION, ...He WELCOMED "touching" -- John 20:27 -- having ASCENDED between these 2 events (2 women "greeting" Him/"touching") which TOOK PLACE AFTER His resurrection (NOT on the DAY of crucifixtion)!

Hey -- Even the PARABLE you have contended with me (that you falsely believe substanciates "hell") in this discussion even CLEARLY verifies this scenario (CHRIST = rising from the DEAD):

Luke 16:31 -- And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though --- ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD

HE DIED gradyll... the word "DEAD" means, ...ah ...DEAD!


He commended His Spirit to YHVH... for the SPIRIT is the breath of LIFE, which is the DIVINE, LIVING within the FLESH of DUST.


Actually, ...in order to REDEEM those who have sinned... He had to have absorbed ALL that they had coming... (eternal torment for EACH one)


If indeed, CHRIST "paid" the COST for those FEW whom YOU claim are "saved" (including yourSELF of course)... then He is the MOST TORMENTED of ALL BEINGS... ...nah!

For He IS recieving the amount of TORMENT, that those FEW whom you claim are "saved" should RIGHTLY be recieving... How ridiculous can your blasphemy get, gradyll?

He as a MAN, DIED and went to the GRAVE, ...and there is NO SCRIPTURE says He went to Paradise on the DAY of His crucifixtion!



THIRD --- As you likely will remain unconvinced even though REASON has been presented to you... Where (AS YOU SEE IT), was He "resurrected" from, ...gradyll? Heaven?

What is the point of RESURRECTION, gradyll? What GLORY is found in it? Seeing that you "believe" that CHRIST "went to Heaven", ...or is it "Hell" on the DAY of crucifixtion? (you are quite double minded and UNCLEAR as to where you think He went! Neither of which these 2 options actually took place or harmonizes with Scripture! For ...according to Scripture which has been presented to you WITNESSES that He DIED and was RESURRECTED from the DEAD.)

You appear to be a modern version of the SADDUCEES which did not BELIEVE in RESURRECTION.

If He already went to paradise and was LIVING in it... why is His GRAVE such an emphasis in Scripture?


PRIDE is the MUD in which your feet are found immersed... filthy, vain, and pathetically without spiritual understanding... gleaning no more of the WORD of God, than might an atheist in reading it.

There are so many holes in what you "believe", that it is really pitiful when analyzed...



FOURTH --- Also... YOU have proven NOTHING... other than COPY the blasphemis of other misled men... perpetuating their SHAME, and in doing so, ...adding unto that SHAME, ...your own.

Nevertheless brother, ...I still pray the LIGHT to come upon your heart one day...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

This didn't get any response before, so here it is again, verses that talk about an afterlife in Heaven:

About the "supposed" ..."AFTERLIFE"...


You are welcome to accept or reject that which is below mentioned, but you SHALL find this to be true ...in the end... :


Actually there is no such thing as an "afterlife"... which is yet another UNBIBLICAL term... invented by men without spiritual insight which IS given in the Scriptures...


We RETURN to where we BEGAN... the "END and the BEGINNING" are one and the SAME -- Rev 1:8 -- Luke 15:11-32 -- Job 38:7 -- That which is PART or within YHVH God is therefore ETERNAL, without BEGINNING or END...

The disobedience of MAN is that which has beginning and end...

The Creation is a REVELATION of that which has always been within YHVH God is UNCHANGING and PERFECT (complete = without limitation, without blemish)... nothing is ever ADDED in or to HIM, or TAKEN AWAY... Nor ever ADDED to His WORD, or TAKEN AWAY... except by the manifestations of EVIL which are within the revealed KNOWLEDGE of it.

HE and ALL within Him -- Acts 28:17 -- is without any limitation (such as the parameters of beginning and end).

Therefore, ...ANY and EVERYTHING that IS ...IN Him... has ALWAYS BEEN ...IN HIM. (no "afterlife")

This realm IS the REVEALING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which is the PURPOSE of YHVH... For the WORD is SENT to accomplish His PURPOSE -- Isaiah 55:11 -- and IN His WORD, is found the entirety of this REALM and ALL THINGS, which are (were) DECLARED of Him (both Good and Evil), ...END to BEGINNING -- Isaiah 46:10 -- and ARE occuring ACCORDING to that DECLARATION (in each and every detail) as we speak... BEGINNING to END!

IN His WORD is found the COMPLETE (perfect) KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL (which are 2 portions of the SAME KNOWLEDGE... and which REVEAL both), ...coming from and residing FOREVER, ...IN, the SAME (UNCHANGING) SOURCE -- Gen 2:9

CHRIST is the "SPEECH" (ENTIRE WORD delivered/spoken BY the author = YHVH) of ALL THINGS (which includes things Good and things Evil) -- Col 1:16

Therefore each individual thing that appears in this realm has its origin or expression, traced to Him -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- MEN (within each entire LIFE), are the EXPRESSED individual "WORDS" of Good and Evil (words of the SPEECH) -- And are the "BOOKS" which are OPENED -- Rev 20:12

ALL of which (to the detail of their entirety) find their origin and emergence ...IN and from -- YHVH God -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- who IS ALL in ALL... and who IS ...NEVER CHANGING -- Mal 3:6



PEACE...


...willieH

 

[he-man]

It seems that you've quoted everything EXCEPT for an afterlife in heaven.
reward in heaven, treasures in heaven, kingdom of heaven, names are written in heaven, an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven, the heavenly Jerusalem, every family in heaven and on earth, citizenship is in heaven, a better country—a heavenly one, inheritance is kept in heaven.

Now look specifically at Phillipians 3:14. It doesn't even say heavenward.
Here is the greek, κατὰ σκοπὸν διώκω εἰς τὸ βραβεῖον τῆς ἄνω κλήσεως τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ. It says "upward", not heavenward. Ouranos (heaven) isn't even in the verse you use to prove we go to heaven at the time of our deaths, with no resurrection necessary.

Our inheritance is eternal life with Christ when we are resurrected from death by Him. I know that you don't like this, but this is what the bible says.

Yes and... I for my part am like a drink-offering which is already being poured out; and the time for my decomposure is now close at hand.
2 Tim 4:5-6 αναλύω decomposure, analyse, analyze, assay, resolve—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

 

[createdtoworship]

The Grave/hades is not Abraham's bosom. It is a metaphor which was expressed by Abraham as being gathered to his people awaiting the belief in the resurrection .

The begger is symbolic of Christ and his being buried in the GRAVE like Abraham

Gen 49:30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a buryingplace.

31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah

The word used in verse 26 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G5490 χάσμα chasm, gulf, hiatus, rift, separation [/FONT][/FONT]for gulf

is not the same as verse 22 Abraham's bosom[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G2859 κόλπον gulf, bay; trick; loch; basin ΜΕ: from OFr. golfe, from Ital. golfo, based on Gk kolpos ‘gulf’[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Both, simply mean that there is a seperation being gathered to his people awaiting the belief in the resurrection[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

you have to prove abrahams bosom doesn't exist, and it's impossible to prove a negative. Unless you have travelled to the farthest part of the universe and checked that abrahams bosom doesn't exist.

 

[createdtoworship]

FIRST --- You can't even address the Scripture under discussion! We were speaking of the "thief & CHRIST"... and the "DAY" of crucifixtion.

In your UNSTABLE and DOUBLE MINDED thinking, ...first YOU claim "in that DAY":

(1) -- He headed south to preach IN HELL, in one breath, and in the next, you preach...

(2) -- He went to CELEBRATE with the "theif" IN the JOYS of Paradise...
Then, on top of these 2 fallacies, you...

(3) -- INVENT... UNBIBLICAL ..."compartments"... TO FALSELY accomodate all of this, ...hoping to substanciate your fairytale-like myths which are presented IN the INIQUITY and pride of the condemning and shameful tongue that you cannot control...

Your FORK TONGUED doctrine, ...exposes who you are, ...and plainly within it shows you to be UNABLE to control your CONDEMNING (GEHENNA) tongue which "ought not so to BE" -- James 3:6-10

Admittedly COPYING (cutting and pasting) your "beliefs" from others instead of SHOWING YOURSELF APPROVED via your own study -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- failing to preach the GOSPEL, which is GOOD NEWS...

Busily exalting yourSELF above others, by claiming your UNDESERVED Salvation as YOURS, and NOT THEIRS...

To be pitied... ...and certainly PRAYED for...



SECOND --- It is VERY clear in Scripture, ...that JESUS CHRIST - ROSE from the DEAD, -- Luke 16:31 -- Luke 24:46 -- ...and did NOT "go to paradise" until AFTER He had ASCENDED -- John 20:17 -- forbidding the (sinful) women to even TOUCH Him, ...then shortly after He was RESURRECTED from the state of DEATH -- Then not long after His ASCENSION, ...He WELCOMED "touching" -- John 20:27 -- having ASCENDED between these 2 events (2 women "greeting" Him/"touching") which TOOK PLACE AFTER His resurrection (NOT on the DAY of crucifixtion)!

Hey -- Even the PARABLE you have contended with me (that you falsely believe substanciates "hell") in this discussion even CLEARLY verifies this scenario (CHRIST = rising from the DEAD):

Luke 16:31 -- And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though --- ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD

HE DIED gradyll... the word "DEAD" means, ...ah ...DEAD!


He commended His Spirit to YHVH... for the SPIRIT is the breath of LIFE, which is the DIVINE, LIVING within the FLESH of DUST.


Actually, ...in order to REDEEM those who have sinned... He had to have absorbed ALL that they had coming... (eternal torment for EACH one)


If indeed, CHRIST "paid" the COST for those FEW whom YOU claim are "saved" (including yourSELF of course)... then He is the MOST TORMENTED of ALL BEINGS... ...nah!

For He IS recieving the amount of TORMENT, that those FEW whom you claim are "saved" should RIGHTLY be recieving... How ridiculous can your blasphemy get, gradyll?

He as a MAN, DIED and went to the GRAVE, ...and there is NO SCRIPTURE says He went to Paradise on the DAY of His crucifixtion!



THIRD --- As you likely will remain unconvinced even though REASON has been presented to you... Where (AS YOU SEE IT), was He "resurrected" from, ...gradyll? Heaven?

What is the point of RESURRECTION, gradyll? What GLORY is found in it? Seeing that you "believe" that CHRIST "went to Heaven", ...or is it "Hell" on the DAY of crucifixtion? (you are quite double minded and UNCLEAR as to where you think He went! Neither of which these 2 options actually took place or harmonizes with Scripture! For ...according to Scripture which has been presented to you WITNESSES that He DIED and was RESURRECTED from the DEAD.)

You appear to be a modern version of the SADDUCEES which did not BELIEVE in RESURRECTION.

If He already went to paradise and was LIVING in it... why is His GRAVE such an emphasis in Scripture?


PRIDE is the MUD in which your feet are found immersed... filthy, vain, and pathetically without spiritual understanding... gleaning no more of the WORD of God, than might an atheist in reading it.

There are so many holes in what you "believe", that it is really pitiful when analyzed...



FOURTH --- Also... YOU have proven NOTHING... other than COPY the blasphemis of other misled men... perpetuating their SHAME, and in doing so, ...adding unto that SHAME, ...your own.

Nevertheless brother, ...I still pray the LIGHT to come upon your heart one day...


PEACE...


...willieH

I was referring to Christ's soul being separate from the body on the day He was killed. Besides For someone who ignores 35 verses given to them on a topic (post 547) I should be the one complaining that you don't answer the verse on topic.

secondly,
you have to prove abrahams bosom doesn't exist, and it's impossible to prove a negative. Unless you have travelled to the farthest part of the universe and checked that abrahams bosom doesn't exist.

 

[LutheranMafia]

It seems that you've quoted everything EXCEPT for an afterlife in heaven.
reward in heaven, treasures in heaven, kingdom of heaven, names are written in heaven, an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven, the heavenly Jerusalem, every family in heaven and on earth, citizenship is in heaven, a better country—a heavenly one, inheritance is kept in heaven.

Excellent synopsis! So what are all these things referring to if there is no afterlife in Heaven?

Now look specifically at Phillipians 3:14. It doesn't even say heavenward.
Here is the greek, κατὰ σκοπὸν διώκω εἰς τὸ βραβεῖον τῆς ἄνω κλήσεως τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ. It says "upward", not heavenward. Ouranos (heaven) isn't even in the verse you use to prove we go to heaven at the time of our deaths, with no resurrection necessary.

I have bolded the words at the end of your statement that are in error. I do not say that the resurrection is not necessary. What I say is that we go to Heaven before being physically resurrected. The resurrection speaks of a physical existence, not a disembodied heavenly existence.

As to the Greek, you bolded the essential word, ἄνω. Here is what Strong's dictionary says about the word ἄνω:

1) up, upwards, above, on high
2) of the quarters of the heaven, northward
3) of countries, inland, up from the coast
4) of time, formerly
​

Here is the Amplfied Bible's translation of the verse:

I press on toward the goal to win the [supreme and heavenly] prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward.
Philippians 3:14
​

Heaven, quite obviously, is upwards from here in another dimension. I will speak to this more in a later post.

Our inheritance is eternal life with Christ when we are resurrected from death by Him. I know that you don't like this, but this is what the bible says.

So what is this kingdom of Heaven that is upwards then? You have not answered that question.

 

[Timothew]

The prize is resurrection to eternal life.

 

[LutheranMafia]

As to Heaven being upwards and Hell being downwards, I had a mystical experience related to this that frames my thinking:

I woke up in the middle of the night with a feeling like I was shooting upwards on a rocket. Everything in my room began to shimmer with a white glow that got brighter and brighter. After a minute or so it seemed like I was slowing down and reached a peak of a parabolic curve and then started edging back downward at a gradually increasing pace. Something inside me panicked, I wanted to stay at the top and I felt something inside me flailing out to try and hold on to something, but there was nothing to hold onto and I inexorably continued to fall. My room got dimmer and dimmer until it was the nearly pitch black that my room was at this point in "space". I didn't stop there however, I continued "falling" and everything started to turn red instead of white. It felt like I was going deeper and deeper underwater, there was a sense of oppressive pressure, like I was under the ocean. Then, just as it had happened at the top, I slowed down to loop the bottom of a parabolic curve. At the moment that I was at the bottom I had two thoughts, one was that I hoped I didn't get stuck there, and the other was that it wasn't so bad really.

I continued going back upwards till I hit the "normal" place in the "middle", which is here, were nothing was glowing at all, and I stopped abruptly.

Heaven is up and Hell is down in an extradimensional way. I've been rather uncomfortable with the way Grady has been talking about extra dimensions, so I was reluctant to bring this point up, but I think that in this particular instance it is very revealing to think about Heaven and Hell as an extradimensional dimension of space that is in fact "up" and "down".

 

[LutheranMafia]

The prize is resurrection to eternal life.

That is the ultimate prize, yes, but that is not the kingdom of Heaven as it is now. That will be at a future time when the kingdom of Heaven is on Earth as well as Heaven.

What is the kingdom of Heaven as it is now, as I have spoken of in the verses that I have quoted?

 

[LutheranMafia]

So I am, after some considerable time, noticing a pattern here. Is it true that everyone who believes in annihilationism disbelieves in an afterlife?

I'm going to post a poll on this in both the Unorthodox Theology board and on the General Theology board.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I have posted the following thread on this board:

Is there a correlation between Annihilationism and disbelief in an afterlife?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7604851/

And on the General Theology board at: http://www.christianforums.com/t7604852/

 

[WillieH]

I was referring to Christ's soul being separate from the body on the day He was killed. Besides For someone who ignores 35 verses given to them on a topic (post 547) I should be the one complaining that you don't answer the verse on topic.

Please... there are so many things which ...I... have noted of STUDY done by me... and you whine about your COPIED blab (misled arrangements of God's WORD) not gaining a response?

Study to show YOURSELF approved... then maybe you will gain response.

CHRIST DIED (the soul is the breath of life, combined with the flesh of dust, which is therefore become ALIVE -- Gen 2:7 -- once the BREATH of YHVH is removed, the "SOUL" ceases to be LIVING) and Scripture CLEARLY notes it... and I have given you MANY VERSES to "prove it" (and they will not be repeated to a deaf ear)... which YOU purposely IGNORE (desiring to maintain deafness/darkness) ...to your own coming detriment.

Clinging to your "MAN invented TRADITIONS"... instead of reading and seeking as an INDIVIDUAL (aside from ANY MAN) for REVELATION from YHVH.

secondly,
you have to prove abrahams bosom doesn't exist,

You are just hilarious...

I have never noted that "Abraham's bosom does not exist"! Please QUOTE where (YOU CLAIM) I have stated that "Abraham's bosom does not exist"... and as always... I won't hold my breath, waiting for something YOU cannot DO...

On the contrary... I have noted WHAT "Abraham's bosom" IS... Which is just one more thing (amongst many) YOU are not aware of...

and it's impossible to prove a negative. Unless you have travelled to the farthest part of the universe and checked that abrahams bosom doesn't exist.

"THE Universe"? ...Which "Universe", gradyll?

According to YOU, there are potentially zillions of them, which you claim, JESUS traverses in and out of!

As I have already said, and YOU purposely and pridefully IGNORED...

The "bosom of Abraham" is FAITH... Which of course, I have ALREADY "proven"... ...and you have foolishly IGNORED.

So tell us oh holy one... what do YOU think the "bosum of Abraham" IS? ...Or don't you KNOW? If you should (as is your M.O.), purposely IGNORE this question, ...it is simply because you just DON'T KNOW!

So... any further comments about "Abraham's bosom" BY YOU are therefore emergent from an IGNORANT position...

We shall see... I'm bettin' you "DON'T KNOW"... (once again NO BREATH holding will be done by me! )

Hey, don't feel too bad, you have MANY companions...

For MOST of Christianity (the "MANY" -- Matt 7:22-23), embrace the DECIEIVING TRADITIONS (as YOU have already admitted) and WRITINGS/TEACHINGS of OTHER MEN (as YOU have already admitted to your CUT & PASTE beliefs) -- Mark 7:7-10 -- Matt 15:4-9 -- in the stead of bothering to take YOUR/their "precious time" ...and DEDICATING it to STUDY, seeking to find out what the WORD actually DOES SAY... !

Nah. THAT would require great EFFORT from you... ...and the "easy way" is to place your FAITH in what OTHER MEN have said, rather than SEEKING God in HIS WORD, for YOURSELF!

You and your companions, mostly teach doctrines which are not even mentioned in the WORD ...and then THREATEN the WORLD which God so (etenally and unchanginly) LOVES... WITH THEM!

Placing the cart before the horse... Unbelieveable!

I can name MANY of these FALLACIES, if you like... (one of which is the SUBJECT of THIS discussion)


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Timothew]

So I am, after some considerable time, noticing a pattern here. Is it true that everyone who believes in annihilationism disbelieves in an afterlife?

I'm going to post a poll on this in both the Unorthodox Theology board and on the General Theology board.

What?

I believe in an after life, a life after this life, after the resurrection.

You just don't like this afterlife.