Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[WillieH]

"this blab" happened to be 35 verses from God's Holy Word. I would never call God's Word "blab." You are really showing your true colors here.

Please! Can you not do better than this as a reply, gradyll? Of course it IS "in line" with your negative BAD NEWS "gospel" which is presented in the GUISE of GOOD NEWS... but for the record...

Let's get it straight... about this accusation:

I do not call the HOLY WORD of YHVH, ..."blab"... I call the MISLEADING arrangement and testimony YOU GIVE of it to others... "Blab". For your presentation IS what it IS. ...in which SELFISHNESS surely lies, and in which MERCY, PEACE, GRACE, FORGIVENESS, LOVE, LONGSUFFERING, HOLINESS, VICTORY, PERFECTION and GOOD NEWS... does not.

As well, that the "arrangement" you COPY (from others by your own admissions), is not of your own doing, and is just the promotion of HEARSAY... rather than YOUR OWN personal experience and diligence, with YHVH...

To dishonor God's Word is to dishonor the Lord Jesus Christ.

More accusatory remarks which are obviously unfounded, and intentioned to demote one -- namely me... who has dedicated much of my LIFE (36yrs) to the HONORING of the TRUTH, by diligently and with my WHOLE HEART, ...SEARCHING for it. And STILL in this very day, search for further revelation WITHIN IT.

Sorry bro, but it is you which dishonor them both by NOT making your own, WHOLE HEART search for them as is recommended BY them in the WORD -- Jer 29:14 -- and accordingly the TRUTH which is really IN THEM (not the misled configurations borrowed by you, which the MANY actively propose -- Matt 7:22-23), ...evades you and prompts you to lash out at one who HAS made this effort...

Psalm 138:2 says that God magnifies His Word above His name.

The reason why YHVH should "magnify" His WORD, ...do you even know gradyll?

I could easily tell you, but why should I? You need to find out for yourself. And only a HEART which is completely dedicated to finding out, will come to KNOW "why"...

pRAISE... YHVH God, ...the ONLY GOD and SAVIOR of ALL! -- Isaiah 43:11

In spite of your attacks against me, I forgive you as my (presently misled) brother. One day you shall know that which you do not at present.


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

Speculation on your part. Where is the word 'soul' mentioned in these verses and why don't you look for contecxt with verses like John 6:40, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2?

Neither does 'disembodoed spirits' have any notion of an immaterial essence of a human' meaning either. 'Spirit' (man's) is God'es breath of life in us (Gen 2:7, Eccles 3:18-21, Eccl 12:7)



Christ had a bodily resurrection and he was the first fruit as described by Paul in 1 cor 15.

“We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:8)

“For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.” (Philippians 1:23, 24)

how can someone survive without a body, answer this and your question will be answered.

Just reading through your posts, you confuse the meaning of soul and spirit with definitions other than soul or spirit!

evidence?

clarence larkin on body soul and spirit

The Threefold Nature Of Man

The outer circle stands for the "body" of man, the middle for the "soul" and the inner for the spirit, or what Paul calls the "Carnal" (1Cor. 3:1-3) ; the "Natural" (1Cor. 2:14) ; and the "Spiritual" (1Cor. 3:1) ; parts of man.

In the outer circle the "body" is shown as touching the Material world through the five senses of "sight, " "smell, " "hearing, " "taste" and "touch." The soul uses the "Five Senses" of the body as its agents in the exploration of the phenomena of matter and historical research, and for its self expression and communion with the outside world. The "Gates" to the soul are "imagination, " "conscience, " "memory, " "reason" and the "affections." The "Gate of Imagination" of the soul corresponds to the "Gate of Sight" of the body, being the "eye" by which the soul sees. The "Gate of Conscience" corresponds to the "Gate of Smell, " by which the soul detects the presence of good and evil.

The "Gate of Memory" corresponds to the "Gate of Hearing, " by which the soul recalls what it heard. The "Gate of Reason" corresponds to the "Gate of Taste, " permitting the soul to compare facts as the taste compares foods. The "Gate of the Affections" corresponds to the "Gate of Touch, " being the hand by which the soul feels the person of the one it loves.

The Spirit receives impressions of outward and material things through the soul and body. The "Sense Faculties" of the spirit are the "Spiritual faculties" of "Faith...... Hope, " "Reverence, " "Prayer, " and "Worship." In his unfallen state the "spirit" of man was illuminated from Heaven, but when the human race fell in Adam, sin closed the window of the spirit, and pulled down the curtain, and the "chamber of the spirit" became a Death Chamber, and remains so in every unregenerate heart, until the "Life" and "Light" giving power of the Holy Spirit floods that chamber with the "Life" and "Light" giving power of the NEW LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS. We see then why the "natural" man cannot understand spiritual things. He cannot understand them until his spiritual nature has been renewed.

But the spirit of the Natural man is not only darkened, his "Will" stands as a "guard" at the door, and prevents the entrance of the Holy Spirit, and it is not until the "Will" surrenders through the power of the "Sword of the Spirit, " the ... Word of God, " that the Holy Spirit can enter and take up his abode in the "spirit" of man.

The battlefield of "Good" and "Evil" is in the "soul" of man. It is not enough that the Holy Spirit should take up His residence in the "spirit" of a man, He must have access to the "soul" and "body, " as shown on the Diagram. Not until then can a man become "Sanctified" for "Holiness" is conditioned on a "Spirit Filled" spirit, soul and body. A healthy soul and spirit need a healthy body, and if the body is given over to carnality and the lusts of the flesh, even to fasting that weakens it, the soul and spirit suffer, and the whole man becomes spiritually sick.

Let us now trace the life of the soul and spirit after they have left the body. In the story of the "Rich Man and Lazarus, " we have a description of the "Underworld." We find that it is made up of two compartments, "Paradise" and "Hell, " with an "Impassable Gulf" between. At the bottom of the Gulf is the "Bottomless Pit" or "Abyss." This is a place of temporary confinement for "Evil Spirits" (Demons). It has a King-"Apollyon, " but is kept locked by God, who commissions an angel to open it when He so desires. Rev. 9:1-3; Rev. 17:8; Rev. 20:1-3. Study in this connection the charts on "The Spirit World" and "The Resurrections and the judgments."

Before the resurrection of Christ the soul and spirit of the righteous dead went to the "Paradise" compartment of the Underworld. There Christ met the "Penitent Thief" after His death on the Cross. On the day of His Resurrection Christ's soul and spirit returned from the Underworld, but He did not return alone, He brought back with Him all the occupants of the Paradise section and locked it up, and now He now has the "Keys of Death and Hades." Rev. 1:18 R. V. Here "Death" stands for the "grave" and "Hades" for the Underworld. Some of those who came back from the Underworld with Christ got their "bodies, " and rose and ascended with Him as the "First-Fruits" of the resurrection "from among the dead." Matt. 27:52, Matt. 27:53. The rest were taken up to the "Third Heaven, " where Paul was caught up, 2Cor. 12:1-3. Paul called it Paradise. There all the Righteous dead that have died since Christ's resurrection go, that they may be "With the LORD." Phil. 1:23. 2Cor. 5:8.

There the souls of the Righteous dead shall remain until the time comes for the resurrection of their bodies, then when Christ comes back to meet His Church in the Air, He will bring back the souls of the Righteous dead from the Paradise of the "Third Heaven, " for we are told that He will bring them who "Sleep in Jesus" WITH Him (1Thes. 4:14), and they shall continue on to the earth and get their "bodies" from the grave, and then ascend again with the "Translated Saints" to meet Christ IN THE AIR.

So far as we know the souls of the "Wicked Dead" are still in the "Hell Compartment" of the Underworld, and will remain there until the Second Resurrection, when they will return to the earth and get their bodies, and then go to the "Great White Throne" judgment. After judgment they will be sentenced to the "Second Death, " which means that they shall die again, in the sense of losing their bodies again, and as "disembodied spirits" be cast into the "Lake of Fire, " (Gehenna, the "Final Hell"), to suffer in flames forever. As soul and spirit are impervious to flames, this explains how the wicked, after being disembodied again by the "Second Death, " can exist forever in literal fire.

When the earth is "Renovated by Fire, " Satan and all the "Evil Powers" of the Heavenlies will be imprisoned, and the heavens will be "cleansed" of all evil and rebellious spirits. In the New Heavens and Earth man will be restored to the condition Adam was in before the Fall, and the "veil" between the Natural and Spirit Worlds will be removed.

 

[createdtoworship]

Let's get it straight... about this accusation:

I do not call the HOLY WORD of YHVH, ..."blab"... I call the MISLEADING arrangement and testimony YOU GIVE of it to others... "Blab".

but in post 526 you said the following regarding 35 verses I posted

... all this blab above, does nothing to change what I have already noted.

without answering God's Holy word, you have been properly defeated.

I rest my case, thank you.

If you want to rethink your post regarding the 35 verses stated in 514

I will go ahead and repost the verses

RE: God repenting on behalf of the sinner instead of the sinner repenting in behalf of God....

here is more repentance verses for you to prove your position wrong (that God does the repentance for us)

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. -1 John 5:18

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is borna of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. -1 John 3:7-10

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
Galatians 6:7-9

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath givene assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:30-32

“...the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, and that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in time. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient to unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. “
Acts 26:16-20

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise , as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. “-2 Peter 3:9

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. -Matthew 10:32-33

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. -Luke 12:8-9

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offendd thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. –Matthew 5:7

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. –Matthew 6:14-15

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. –Matthew 4:17

“And they went out, and preached that men should repent.” –Mark 6:12

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; -Luke 3:3

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” –Romans 8:13

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Racac, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. –Matthew 5:22

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”-Ephesians 5:3-7

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. -Matthew 18:3-6

 

[WillieH]

My comments in blue italics:

Jesus decended into Hell and preached to the souls of dead men in the compartments of Hades (sheol) old testament.

Please... There is no such statement in Scripture. JESUS did no such thing. JESUS DIED for us (the ungodly) -- Rom 5:6-8 -- the DEAD KNOW NOT anything -- Ecc 9:5 -- DEAD means DEAD... not "activity" in UNBIBLICAL "compartments" of HADES...

Also this below noted VERSE does NOT say what YOU report it to say, as NO FORM of any of the mistranslated terms from which HELL is emergent including SHEOL, do not appear IN this verse, but DO appear in your comment.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.(9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

The "lower parts of the earth" to which JESUS "descended -- Heb 2:10 -- are indeed MEN (dust - Gen 3:19) which are (until YHVH decides -- John 6:44 -- Matt 11:27 -- 1 Cor 12:3) ...unconverted to the HOLINESS of the WORD.

Not some mythical "HELL" (which Btw is NOT MENTIONED in this verse) invented of theologians and their FOLLOWERS (such as yourself) which actively... DESPISE and CONDEMN the WORLD, instead of find compassion and LOVE for it, as DID YHVH -- John 3:16-17 -- and His CHRIST -- Luke 23:34


JESUS clearly noted to Nicodemus that He came DOWN to EARTH -- John 3: -- Nowhere in Scripture is it noted that JESUS... "went to Hell"...

1 Peter 3:19 (KJV) "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

Indeed, He came DOWN to earth and did preach for approimately 3.5 years.

Unto the "spirits in PRISON" ...which are those in the BONDAGE of SIN.

DEAD men that are in HADES which is the GRAVE... are no longer affiliated with the doings which occur under the sun -- Ecc 5:5-6

1 Peter 4:5-6 (KJV)"Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

ALL men are "DEAD", as CHRIST duly noted -- Matt 8:22 -- MEN "die" of SOUL, in the DAY they EAT of DISOBEDIENCE to the COMMAND of GOD -- Gen 2:17

How can DEAD men (who are supposedly in "HELL") LIVE according to GOD in the Spirit, gradyll?

Luke 16:19 (KJV)
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, (21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (23) And in hell, [Greek Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

This is the most imaginary and misled, of all your references...


(1) To begin with, ...this is a PARABLE (the 5th in a series of 5 IN a CONTEXT in which ALL STORIES in that context noted POSITIVE endings), which is a FICTIOUS albeit a symbolic story...


(2) both the rich man and Lazerus were IN PROXIMITY to one another, ..IOW, in the same place... the "chasm" that separated them was FAITH. Those who believe are certainly SEPARATED from those, who do NOT BELIEVE.


(3) Abraham's "bosom" is FAITH, not salvation...


(4) Abraham has no ability to shed MERCY upon anyone, being a SINNER himself, in need of SALVATION.


(5) Neither CHRIST or YHVH are even mentioned in this story... so it is YOUR grand assumption to suppose that Lazerus was "in Heaven" or even "SAVED"...

Both the rich man, and Lazerus DIED in the DAY they ate... However, Lazerus (GENTILE)was "carried away" into the bosum of FAITH which is the WAY unto LIFE -- John 14:6 -- and the rich man (JEW) remained in DEATH (hades/grave)

The "FLAME" that yields the torment of the LOST, is the CONDEMNATION of the GEHENNA TONGUE, done of those who claim they BELIEVE, ...but in their INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- remain in BITTERNESS of HEART -- James 3:6-10 -- which "OUGHT NOT SO TO BE"!

NOT in the (UNCHANGING) LOVE of YHVH God... or HIS CHRIST, who have MADE ALL men into the IMAGE of the GOD...


(6) The ones who HAVE Moses & the Prophets are the JEWS, therefore THEY represent the RICH MAN...


(7) Neither Heaven nor (the mythical) "Hell" are mentioned in the story... so the story is about NEITHER!


(8) Lazerus is the representation of the GENTILES... which are "IN" Abrahams bosom of FAITH, ...the LAST being FIRST, and the FIRST (JEWS) being LAST.

You are just parroting the orthodox teaching of this story which does not observe in the SPIRIT, rather... remain on the carnal surface observation of the WORD, gathering no more spiritual insight than does an ATHIEST when he reads it...

This passage says it was a certain man. It named a person by name, and this is never done in parables. You can also see that in hell this man could see v23. and feel v24. He also went to hell as soon as he died.

Please... you continue to echo the misled claims of ORTHODOXY, which have NO SUBSTANCIATION in the WORD.

To begin with, HADES does not mean HELL... it means GRAVE or WORLD of the DEAD. And JESUS never went to HELL... and NO Scripture SAYS that He did... He DIED and went to His GRAVE... and was, AFTER 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS, He was resurrected unto LIFE by HIS GOD -- Eph 1:3 -- Eph 1:16 -- Mark 16:34


As for your claims in the above quote:


(1) Show where the WORD dictates that a passage which names a "name", ...is therefore NOT a "PARABLE" (which you CANNOT!)... ...and I will SHOW you IN the WORD, ...that JESUS ...ALWAYS SPOKE in PARABLE when addressing the JEWS -- Matt 13:34 -- Often using "names"...

(2) YHVH God is a SPIRIT... Please prove that He who is the author and CREATOR of "feeling" and "seeing" ...indeed, ...cannot FEEL or SEE...

(3) Other parabolic stories use the term "a CERTAIN MAN"... is the MAN, ..."LAZERUS" therefore the subject of EVERY parable, which notes, "a certain man"?

(4) As I said, JESUS ALWAYS spoke IN PARABLE when addressing the JEWS -- Matt 13:34 - Mark 4:34 -- Which "parabolic process" is CLEARLY revealed in Scripture to be that which WITHHOLDS the hidden meanings of His WORDS, from those He has NOT CHOSEN to HEAR them -- Mark 4:10-12

In private AFTERWARDS, He had to EXPLAIN to the Apostles, the meanings of His orations, as they were delivered IN PARABLE as I have already Scripturally noted -- Mark 4:10-12


The same is TRUE even today... as the TRUTH is REVEALED according to GOD and His agenda and purpose, not according to MEN and THEIR agendas and purposes (which you readily follow)... as the MANY which claim to "come in His name" shall find out, ...to their SHAMEFUL dismay -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5




PEACE...





...willieH

 

[WillieH]

but in post 526 you said the following regarding 35 verses I posted



without answering God's Holy word, you have been properly defeated.

I rest my case, thank you.

If you want to rethink your post regarding the 35 verses stated in 514

I will go ahead and repost the verses

RE: God repenting on behalf of the sinner instead of the sinner repenting in behalf of God....

here is more repentance verses for you to prove your position wrong (that God does the repentance for us)

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. -1 John 5:18

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is borna of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. -1 John 3:7-10

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
Galatians 6:7-9

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath givene assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:30-32

“...the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, and that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in time. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient to unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. “
Acts 26:16-20

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise , as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. “-2 Peter 3:9

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. -Matthew 10:32-33

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. -Luke 12:8-9

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offendd thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. –Matthew 5:7

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. –Matthew 6:14-15

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. –Matthew 4:17

“And they went out, and preached that men should repent.” –Mark 6:12

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; -Luke 3:3

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” –Romans 8:13

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Racac, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. –Matthew 5:22

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”-Ephesians 5:3-7

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. -Matthew 18:3-6

A TAINTED position repeated, does not better it...

You can "rest your case" all you like, bro... ...but the fact remains that your presentation is nothing but MISLED copying of theologians which present, "opinions" you embrace...

Not the SEARCHING with the WHOLE HEART, required of you to KNOW the WORD and what it says. ...and until you actualLy STUDY for yourself, ...your words any any COPYING (CUT & PASTE) of TAINTED dialogue put together by others, ...remains BLAB, ...and remains TAINTED.

Even though their offerings DO contain inclusion of the WORD of GOD, ...the arrangement and interpretations of it are UNREASONABLE and other than REVEALED...

Hey - satan quoted the WORD to CHRIST... but the presentation was still TAINTED... either study to show yourself approved -- 2 Tim 12:15 -- Or take your position before YHVH and recieve your SHAME... I look forward to the drying of your eyes, bro.

Either way, it does not matter to me... You must DO it... not me. All I can do is suggest the pathway to you. YOU must act upon it.


PS... you omitted the REASON WHY God MAGNIFIES His WORD above all... having a bit of trouble areya?


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

The "lower parts of the earth" to which JESUS "descended -- Heb 2:10 -- are indeed MEN (dust - Gen 3:19) which are (until YHVH decides -- John 6:44 -- Matt 11:27 -- 1 Cor 12:3) ...unconverted to the HOLINESS of the WORD.

Not some mythical "HELL" (which Btw is NOT MENTIONED in this verse) invented of theologians and their FOLLOWERS (such as yourself) which actively... DESPISE and CONDEMN the WORLD, instead of find compassion and LOVE for it, as DID YHVH -- John 3:16-17 -- and His CHRIST -- Luke 23:34


JESUS clearly noted to Nicodemus that He came DOWN to EARTH -- John 3: -- Nowhere in Scripture is it noted that JESUS... "went to Hell"...

your post is confusing, you are saying that the "earth" is wicked men? That is interesting, not founded on the word, but interesting. BTW are these men alive or dead?

secondly, Jesus declared to the thief on the Cross:

Luke 23:42, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise”.

Indeed, He came DOWN to earth and did preach for approimately 3.5 years.

Unto the "spirits in PRISON" ...which are those in the BONDAGE of SIN.

DEAD men that are in HADES which is the GRAVE... are no longer affiliated with the doings which occur under the sun -- Ecc 5:5-6

so are these spirits dead or what? You seem to be confused by the word of God, let me give you the context.

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,
1 Peter 3:18-20

secondly, Christ made a distinction between His soul, and His flesh in this verse

Acts 2:31 states, "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

ALL men are "DEAD", as CHRIST duly noted -- Matt 8:22 -- MEN "die" of SOUL, in the DAY they EAT of DISOBEDIENCE to the COMMAND of GOD -- Gen 2:17

How can DEAD men (who are supposedly in "HELL") LIVE according to GOD in the Spirit, gradyll?

He preached to the spirits in paradise, the Good side. That old testament saints could have a chance of believing in the Gospel and go to heaven.

This is the most imaginary and misled, of all your references...


(1) To begin with, ...this is a PARABLE (the 5th in a series of 5 IN a CONTEXT in which ALL STORIES in that context noted POSITIVE endings), which is a FICTIOUS albeit a symbolic story...


(2) both the rich man and Lazerus were IN PROXIMITY to one another, ..IOW, in the same place... the "chasm" that separated them was FAITH. Those who believe are certainly SEPARATED from those, who do NOT BELIEVE.


(3) Abraham's "bosom" is FAITH, not salvation...


(4) Abraham has no ability to shed MERCY upon anyone, being a SINNER himself, in need of SALVATION.


(5) Neither CHRIST or YHVH are even mentioned in this story... so it is YOUR grand assumption to suppose that Lazerus was "in Heaven" or even "SAVED"...

Both the rich man, and Lazerus DIED in the DAY they ate... However, Lazerus (GENTILE)was "carried away" into the bosum of FAITH which is the WAY unto LIFE -- John 14:6 -- and the rich man (JEW) remained in DEATH (hades/grave)

The "FLAME" that yields the torment of the LOST, is the CONDEMNATION of the GEHENNA TONGUE, done of those who claim they BELIEVE, ...but in their INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- remain in BITTERNESS of HEART -- James 3:6-10 -- which "OUGHT NOT SO TO BE"!

NOT in the (UNCHANGING) LOVE of YHVH God... or HIS CHRIST, who have MADE ALL men into the IMAGE of the GOD...


(6) The ones who HAVE Moses & the Prophets are the JEWS, therefore THEY represent the RICH MAN...


(7) Neither Heaven nor (the mythical) "Hell" are mentioned in the story... so the story is about NEITHER!


(8) Lazerus is the representation of the GENTILES... which are "IN" Abrahams bosom of FAITH, ...the LAST being FIRST, and the FIRST (JEWS) being LAST.

You are just parroting the orthodox teaching of this story which does not observe in the SPIRIT, rather... remain on the carnal surface observation of the WORD, gathering no more spiritual insight than does an ATHIEST when he reads it...



Please... you continue to echo the misled claims of ORTHODOXY, which have NO SUBSTANCIATION in the WORD.

To begin with, HADES does not mean HELL... it means GRAVE or WORLD of the DEAD. And JESUS never went to HELL... and NO Scripture SAYS that He did... He DIED and went to His GRAVE... and was, AFTER 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS, He was resurrected unto LIFE by HIS GOD -- Eph 1:3 -- Eph 1:16 -- Mark 16:34


As for your claims in the above quote:


(1) Show where the WORD dictates that a passage which names a "name", ...is therefore NOT a "PARABLE" (which you CANNOT!)... ...and I will SHOW you IN the WORD, ...that JESUS ...ALWAYS SPOKE in PARABLE when addressing the JEWS -- Matt 13:34 -- Often using "names"...

(2) YHVH God is a SPIRIT... Please prove that He who is the author and CREATOR of "feeling" and "seeing" ...indeed, ...cannot FEEL or SEE...

(3) Other parabolic stories use the term "a CERTAIN MAN"... is the MAN, ..."LAZERUS" therefore the subject of EVERY parable, which notes, "a certain man"?

(4) As I said, JESUS ALWAYS spoke IN PARABLE when addressing the JEWS -- Matt 13:34 - Mark 4:34 -- Which "parabolic process" is CLEARLY revealed in Scripture to be that which WITHHOLDS the hidden meanings of His WORDS, from those He has NOT CHOSEN to HEAR them -- Mark 4:10-12

In private AFTERWARDS, He had to EXPLAIN to the Apostles, the meanings of His orations, as they were delivered IN PARABLE as I have already Scripturally noted -- Mark 4:10-12


The same is TRUE even today... as the TRUTH is REVEALED according to GOD and His agenda and purpose, not according to MEN and THEIR agendas and purposes (which you readily follow)... as the MANY which claim to "come in His name" shall find out, ...to their SHAMEFUL dismay -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5

If sheol only meant the grave, what about this verse:
In Psalm 9:17 we read that “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God”.

this cannot be talking only of the grave for even the righteous die.

secondly, RE: lazerus and the rich man
like I said, no where does Christ use a literal name in a parable, there simply IS NO verse in the Bible for this mislead idea.

secondly, if it were a parable why didn't Jesus take record for explaining it to His disciples? Doesn't Christ care if His disciples understand the parable?

 

[createdtoworship]

A TAINTED position repeated, does not better it...

You can "rest your case" all you like, bro... ...but the fact remains that your presentation is nothing but MISLED copying of theologians which present, "opinions" you embrace...

Not the SEARCHING with the WHOLE HEART, required of you to KNOW the WORD and what it says. ...and until you actualLy STUDY for yourself, ...your words any any COPYING (CUT & PASTE) of TAINTED dialogue put together by others, ...remains BLAB, ...and remains TAINTED.

Even though their offerings DO contain inclusion of the WORD of GOD, ...the arrangement and interpretations of it are UNREASONABLE and other than REVEALED...

Hey - satan quoted the WORD to CHRIST... but the presentation was still TAINTED... either study to show yourself approved -- 2 Tim 12:15 -- Or take your position before YHVH and recieve your SHAME... I look forward to the drying of your eyes, bro.

Either way, it does not matter to me... You must DO it... not me. All I can do is suggest the pathway to you. YOU must act upon it.


PS... you omitted the REASON WHY God MAGNIFIES His WORD above all... having a bit of trouble areya?


PEACE...


...willieH

I did't copy and paste, this is a study I have done over the years from my personal Bible highlights about obedience verses.

Again, you are defeated, just admit it. The doctrines of demons is dispelled by one thing alone, the word of God. Read the word of God for yourself, not anything I have said can convince you simply read the word of God. I have dozens more verses I can post will you hear them?
The word exists,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, and that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in time.


without answering God's Holy word, you have been properly defeated.

I will go ahead and repost the verses because you are afraid of the word of God.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. -1 John 5:18

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is borna of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. -1 John 3:7-10

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
Galatians 6:7-9

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath givene assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:30-32

“...the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, and that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in time. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient to unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. “
Acts 26:16-20

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise , as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. “-2 Peter 3:9

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. -Matthew 10:32-33

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. -Luke 12:8-9

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offendd thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. –Matthew 5:7

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. –Matthew 6:14-15

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. –Matthew 4:17

“And they went out, and preached that men should repent.” –Mark 6:12

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; -Luke 3:3

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” –Romans 8:13

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Racac, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. –Matthew 5:22

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”-Ephesians 5:3-7

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. -Matthew 18:3-6

 

[createdtoworship]

You can "rest your case" all you like, bro... ...but the fact remains that your presentation is nothing but MISLED copying of theologians which present, "opinions" you embrace...

Since, you already accused me of copying and cut and paste, I thought I would go ahead and do it. Here is some cut and paste:

from:
What Did the Early Christians Believe About Hell?

From the earliest days of Christianity, the first believers wrote about the nature of Hell. Here is a very brief assessment of their understanding related to the final resting place of the damned:

From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The author of the Epistle of Barnabas is unknown, but many consider him to simply be who he said he was, Barnabas, the associate of Paul who is mentioned in the Book of Acts. The letter was written to new converts to Christianity:

The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment. (“Epistle of Barnabas&#8221

From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)


From Clement of Rome (150AD)
Clement was Bishop of Rome from 88 to 98AD, and his teaching reflects the early traditions of the Church. "Second Clement" reportedly a recorded sermon, and Clement discusses the nature of Hell:

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!' (“Second Clement” 17:7)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Tatian (160AD)
Tatian was an early Assyrian believer who moved to Rome as a pagan and eventually became a Christian. Interestingly, he read the Jewish Scriptures and from these became convinced that other pagan ideas about the world were simply false. He was a student of Justin Martyr and wrote about the unreasonableness of paganism and the truth of Christianity:

We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.


From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:

We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one...or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology&#8221

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Theophilus was the Patriarch of Antioch from 169 to 183AD. He was born a pagan and converted to Christianity after reading the scriptures. He was very zealous about protecting the orthodoxy of the earliest believers and he wrote a defense of the faith to a man named Autolycus:

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
Irenaeus was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul (now Lyon, France) at the end of the second century. He was a disciple of Polycarp and a notable early apologist for the faith. He wrote several volumes defending the faith against Gnosticism and other early heresies of the Church, and he often compared eternal punishment to eternal reward, drawing the conclusion that one endured as long as the other:

...Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send 'spiritual wickednesses,' and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
Titus Flavius Clemens was the first significant and recorded Christian from the church of Alexandria, Egypt. His parents were Greek and he was raised with a solid, formal Greek education. While he had a tendency to blend Greek and Christian philosophies, his view on the issue of Hell was derived from the scriptures:

All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Tertullian (197AD)
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was a Romanized African citizen who was born in Carthage (now Tunisia). He became a Christian and was a powerful and influential apologist for the faith, writing prolifically in defense of the doctrines of orthodoxy:

These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)

Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)

Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged--the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. ("Apology" 48:12)

From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Hippolytus was one of the most prolific writers of the early Church, and he was often at theological odds with the early Popes and church leaders of his time. He appears to have been a student of Irenaeus, and wrote MANY volumes of history, apologetics and Biblical teaching:

Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3&#8221

From Felix Minucius (226AD)
Felix Marcus Minucius is perhaps the earliest known Latin apologist for the Christian faith. He wrote “Octavius”, a dialogue on Christianity between a non-believer named Caecilius Natalis and a Christian named Octavius Januarius (who was a lawyer, friend and student of Minucius Felix:

I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment... Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)

From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus was bishop at Carthage. He had an excellent Greek education and wrote several key letters and treatises in which he discussed doctrines of the Church:

An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)

Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! ("To Thibaris" 55:10)

From Lactantius (307AD)
Lucius Caelius Firmianus Lactantius was a Latin speaking native of North Africa. He was an expert in rhetoric and he taught the subject in the city of Nicomedia at the request of Emperor Diocletian. He also wrote several apologetic and doctrinal works:

But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire...The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment ...Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)

 

[Timothew]

how can someone survive without a body, answer this and your question will be answered.

(psst! gradyll, nobody can survive without a body.)

 

[createdtoworship]

(psst! gradyll, nobody can survive without a body.)

evidence from the Bible? ............I didnt' think so.

But here is evidence for my position

There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.

1st Samuel 28:11-19 - samuel talked with a witch after death

Matthew 12:40 (Jonah 2) – Jonah spoke as one from hell who was dead.

Matthew 17:2-3 – Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.

Matthew 22:31-32 – Abraham was dead, but still living.

Luke 16:19-31 – Jesus tells the story of dead people speaking in hell. (Some wrongly think this is a parable. It is not. If soul sleep were true then the story is not only false, but the Lord is misleading his hearers as to what is real. This is significant evidence that the dead are not only conscious but can speak and feel.)

Luke 23:43 – Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him “today”.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 – Whether they wake or sleep they live with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 – Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 – Paul describes someone who heard things possibly out of his body.

Philippians 1:23 – Paul says that he would depart to be with Christ, not unconscious.

Revelation 6:9-11 – The soul is dead and is crying out to God.

 

[createdtoworship]

this was a previous topic, and seeing that the greek words for torture are not the same as torment I would expand upon this topic....

from
PleaseConvinceMe Blog: Torture, or Torment? Is there a Difference?

On a recent Stand to Reason podcast, a caller challenged Greg Koukl as to the nature of hell, arguing that a loving God could not engage in eternal torture. Greg rightly drew the distinction between torture, which implies a certain motive or sick pleasure on the part of the doer, and torment, which does not. Drawing on the symbol of fire, the caller pressed the point, asking how causing someone to burn eternally and to experience the pain and agony of burning could not be characterized as torture.

This is a good question, and a very difficult challenge for the Christian apologist to meet. After all, Jesus used similar imagery, when He compared Hell to the perpetual fires ...outside Jerusalem, in the place called Gehenna.

The response to this challenge requires us to tease out the assumption that the question contains. By asserting that God “causes” someone to burn eternally and that God “inflicts agony,” the question compels the answer that yes, this would be torture. The real issue, though, is whether God does those things to the souls in Hell, or whether those lost souls experience an everlasting torment that is a consequence – and not a separate goal - of the fact that they are in Hell.

In the Civil War, doctors treated most bullet wounds to an arm or leg by amputating the limb, no doubt an excruciating experience in the days before anesthetics. But these actions were done not to torture the patient but to accomplish some good purpose – namely, to save him. The patient no doubt felt tormented, but this was a natural consequence of the necessary action that was taken; it would not be fair to say the doctor had engaged in torture. On the other hand, if one side had taken perfectly healthy prisoners of war and amputated a limb to inflict pain, either to coerce cooperation or as a method of terror, this would indeed be torture. Similarly, if a modern surgeon decided to amputate without anesthetics, it would be fair to characterize such actions as torture.

Christians believe that God is all good and that whatever he creates must also be good. Hell is a place of separation He has created for those deserving of such separation. Hell must be good and must serve a good purpose. But if Hell is a place in which God actively inflicts agony simply to terrorize or for some other evil purpose, then Hell cannot be a good place, and God cannot be good. Alternatively, if God could accomplish His legitimate purpose of separating wrongdoers from Him without inflicting the level of torment that exists in Hell, then, once again, it would seem evil to inflict such agony.

How, then, does orthodox Christianity makes sense of this place called Hell?

I submit that the answer lies in understanding that the torment spoken of is the natural consequence of the legitimate end God accomplishes with Hell, and not a separate, sadistic purpose to inflict agony. What is that end? Separation from Him. And what is He? Perfection. Absolute, unlimited, infinite perfection, the kind that we as human beings cannot even begin to fathom. Remember your first love? Or the way you felt when you beheld your first child? Or reuniting with your spouse after a period apart? Conversely, can you recall the first time you were homesick, or the first time you experienced the death of a loved one? Now magnify these feelings – not by a hundred, a thousand, or even a billion, but by infinity, and by eternity. Start to get the picture? If the “goodness” of the people we love can cause us such torment when we are separated from them, and if that goodness is a mere shadow of the infinite perfection of God, then I shudder to imagine what knowing but not be able to experience the infinite beauty and pefection of God would be like.

 

[createdtoworship]

The thief on the cross could not have been in heaven, becuase Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days and it was some time later he ascended. There was no punctuation in Greek so the comma being placed after the word 'today' removes all contradictions.

Jesus decended into paradise of abrahams bosom to preach to the souls there and allow them the grace of the Gospel that had not yet been preached to the old testament saints.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

See, I took all the punctuation out, and it still means "today you will be with me in paradise."

 

[WillieH]

Since, you already accused me of copying and cut and paste, I thought I would go ahead and do it. Here is some cut and paste:

As I said before, a TAINTED position repeated -- does not better it.

Falsehoods, no matter how many times they are believed, and then repeated by others, ...NEVER (eventually) become truth.

Nor are NUMBERS of believers of a falsehood -- Matt 24:5 -- Matt 7:22-23 -- any verification that TRUTH is noted by them due to their being, great in number = "MANY"!

TRUTHFUL teaching, must be SUPPORTED by the WORD, and within that "support", shown to be REASONABLE -- Isaiah 1:18 -- and must contain LOVE, FORGIVENESS, GRACE, etc -- otherwise, said "teachings" are emergent in EVIL, and INIQUITY, and the believers of them, immersed in thier own VANITY, ...and are destined for DESTRUCTION.

Just because ancient writers and theologians "believed" something (such as "HELL"), does not equate said "belief", to TRUTH on the basis they are, "ancient" ...

Nor that numerous men, because they have COPIED their beliefs, and submitted them unto the WORLD (that God so LOVES), are thereby the bearers of "TRUTH" based on the fact they are HUGE in NUMBER which believe said falsehoods, and then have copied those beliefs, of ancients or contemporaries, ...in IGNORANCE.

As JESUS plainly noted, MANY (coming in His name) would DECIEVE MANY... deal with it! or don't... either way, you WILL come before Him (as did Cain & Abel) with whatever course you have chosen...

You are more than welcome to cut, paste and copy your beliefs from others... but as for me, ...I shall stay my BIBLICAL position which INSTRUCTS us to, "STUDY to show yourself approved" -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- NOT, your position, which is to... "cut,paste & copy" foolish ancients, to show yourself approved".

Hope (for your sake) you learn this one day, bro...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

As I said before, a TAINTED position repeated -- does not better it.

Falsehoods, no matter how many times they are believed, and then repeated by others, ...NEVER (eventually) become truth.

Nor are NUMBERS of believers of a falsehood -- Matt 24:5 -- Matt 7:22-23 -- any verification that TRUTH is noted by them due to their being, great in number = "MANY"!

TRUTHFUL teaching, must be SUPPORTED by the WORD, and within that "support", shown to be REASONABLE -- Isaiah 1:18 -- and must contain LOVE, FORGIVENESS, GRACE, etc -- otherwise, said "teachings" are emergent in EVIL, and INIQUITY, and the believers of them, immersed in thier own VANITY, ...and are destined for DESTRUCTION.

Just because ancient writers and theologians "believed" something (such as "HELL"), does not equate said "belief", to TRUTH on the basis they are, "ancient" ...

Nor that numerous men, because they have COPIED their beliefs, and submitted them unto the WORLD (that God so LOVES), are thereby the bearers of "TRUTH" based on the fact they are HUGE in NUMBER which believe said falsehoods, and then have copied those beliefs, of ancients or contemporaries, ...in IGNORANCE.

As JESUS plainly noted, MANY (coming in His name) would DECIEVE MANY... deal with it! or don't... either way, you WILL come before Him (as did Cain & Abel) with whatever course you have chosen...

You are more than welcome to cut, paste and copy your beliefs from others... but as for me, ...I shall stay my BIBLICAL position which INSTRUCTS us to, "STUDY to show yourself approved" -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- NOT, your position, which is to... "cut,paste & copy" foolish ancients, to show yourself approved".

Hope (for your sake) you learn this one day, bro...


PEACE...


...willieH

there is a history of the true church throughout the ages, if it's new it's not true, if it's true it's not new.

God did not start His ministry in the 19th century with annihilationism.

 

[WillieH]

Unlike yourself (which displays the inability to do so), ...I will address ALL of your MISLED observations (in spite of their complete lack of spiritual insight:

your post is confusing, you are saying that the "earth" is wicked men? That is interesting, not founded on the word, but interesting. BTW are these men alive or dead?

FIRST --- It does not surprise me that you are confused... thanks for admitting it. As far as "not founded", upon the WORD (which is your own UNFOUNDED position ):

SECOND --- I say (in witness of the WORD) -- Gen 2:17 -- that MEN are DUST... which = EARTH, which is the DECLARATION of YHVH to them...

Wherever you might note EARTH in Scripture... if it is not decidedly speaking of the LAND or the MUD/SAND/etc. of EARTH, it is teaching us of MEN, not a planet in the Universe...

For example -- Isaiah 26:9 -- ...When the JUDGMENTS of YHVH are ...IN... the Earth, the inhabitants thereof will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS

YHVH GOD is not "judging" the PLANET Earth! He does not "place His JUDGMENTS in the MUD", gradyll! He does not seek via His JUDGMENTS that the MUD, repent! ...Are you that silly to believe such a thing?

He JUDGES MEN. And when HIS JUDGMENTS are IN those "MEN"... they will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS from them...

THIRD --- MEN which were alive... were noted as DEAD by CHRIST... this is due to the fact that men DIE in the DAY they DISOBEY the COMMAND of YHVH -- Gen 2:17 -- So... yes... men can and DO, ...LIVE in a state of DEATH (which is SIN).

secondly, Jesus declared to the thief on the Cross:

Luke 23:42, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise”.

Have you not gained ANY insight bro? JESUS was NOT "in paradise" on that DAY! He was IN DEATH on that DAY! -- Rom 5:6-8 -- JESUS DIED, and yet YOU and many others like you, insist that IN DEATH, He DID things while DEAD... A perfect example of your UNREASONABLE observations of the WORD.

KNOWING NOT, that what JESUS actually said to the "thief" -- "...verily I say unto you today -------> shalt thou be with Me in paradise"

Even within your own CONFUSED belief, you vehemently portray Him as "PREACHING" to people IN HELL on that DAY, ...Not lavishing in the JOY of PARADISE with "the theif"! Get a clue.

so are these spirits dead or what? You seem to be confused by the word of God, let me give you the context.

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,
1 Peter 3:18-20

FIRST -- No it is YOU which is CONFUSED (by your own admission)... The WORD of the PROPHETS is the TESTIMONY of CHRIST -- John 5:39 -- which WORD was present in the DAY of Noah... as GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS -- Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21

Anyone IN BONDAGE to ANYTHING, is a PRISONER of that thing...

a DRUG ADDICT is PRISONER to DRUGS...
a SOCIOPATH, is PRISONER to MURDER...
an ALCOHOLIC is PRISONER to Alcohol...
a FOOL is PRISONER to his CARNALITY...
a preacher of FALSEHOOD is PRISONER to LIES...

SECOND -- thanks for (UNKNOWINGLY ) providing another Scripture which TESTIFIES that CHRIST... DIED!

secondly, Christ made a distinction between His soul, and His flesh in this verse

Acts 2:31 states, "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

I have not made any objection to the SOUL being separate from the FLESH... As far as this Scripture... He was not left IN THE GRAVE, gradyll, for He was RESURRECTED unto LIFE... Don't you "SEE" anything?

He preached to the spirits in paradise, the Good side. That old testament saints could have a chance of believing in the Gospel and go to heaven.

I have PROPHESIED in our conversation before, and it has come to pass... here is another one...

WHERE in the Scriptures is ANY of this noted in the WORD? Just more false reports made by YOU:

(1) where is it noted that He "preached" to the "spirits in paradise" - the "good side"?

(2) where is it noted that "this preaching" -- "was done so the OT saints could have a chance" to believe in the GOSPEL"

(3) where is it noted that ANYONE is given a "CHANCE" to believe in the GOSPEL?

(4) where is it noted that ANYONE is "going to heaven"?

I PROPHESY that YOU shall not be able to produce ANY Scriptural support for ANY of what you have just stated... which amounts to nothing but an UNSUPPORTED SPECULATION of YOURS, upon which you base your own misled observations... on YOURSELF!

If sheol only meant the grave, what about this verse:
In Psalm 9:17 we read that “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God”.

ALL are WICKED... and ALL (as did ADAM) go to the GRAVE (not "HELL") for participation in that WICKEDNESS -- Rom 3:10 -- Psalm 14:1-3

When GOD warned ADAM about "eating of the tree"... He did NOT inform him of, or SAY anything at all, ...about "HELL"... matter of fact... NO word which is MISTRANSLATED - "HELL" appears in the ENTIRETY of the TORAH... (OH... do you know what the TORAH is, gradyll? )

The TRUTH is... that GOD warned ADAM of DEATH (which engages the GRAVE=SHEOL)... PERIOD!

Gen 3:19 ...for DUST [earth] thou art... and unto DUST [not "Hell"], shalt thou return...

this cannot be talking only of the grave for even the righteous die.

THERE is NONE "righteous" gradyll! -- Rom 3:9-12 -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- I suppose you think YOURSELF as "righteous"? Please... the blasphemies you preach SHALL become addressed, and they are anything but "righteous" -- Matt 7:22-23 -- On the contrary... they are immersed in ILLOGIC, UNREASON, and worst of all, in INIQUITY.

secondly, RE: lazerus and the rich man
like I said, no where does Christ use a literal name in a parable, there simply IS NO verse in the Bible for this mislead idea.

Already addressed this, you IGNORED it... no further time shall be wasted by me -- with you -- about it.

secondly, if it were a parable why didn't Jesus take record for explaining it to His disciples? Doesn't Christ care if His disciples understand the parable?

You already used up "secondly" up! ...is this your "second, secondly"?

ALL JESUS' words spoken to the JEWS were in PARABLE and this has already been provided you... its not my fault that in your IGNORANCE, you BELIEVE, cut, paste & copy the words of men... and IGNORE the WORD...

Also... you are UNABLE to come up with Scripture which notes that PARABLES cannot contain "names"...

I'm still waiting on that... but certainly in wisdom, ...not "holding my breath"...


Pity...


peace...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

there is a history of the true church throughout the ages, if it's new it's not true, if it's true it's not new.

God did not start His ministry in the 19th century with annihilationism.

Please...

FIRST --- By saying this, you note that those who DOCUMENT HISTORY in this day are documenting LIES? (if it is NEW it is not TRUE?)


SECOND --- There is NO, neither has there ever been, a "ministry" of "annhilation"... Neither is or has ever been, a "miinistry" of "HELL"... (which appears to be your preference)

THIRD --- The ..."True church"? Upon what do you found this, gradyll?

Placing your FAITH in historians... instead of the WORD?

So tell us oh holy one... which "CHURCH" is the "true church" gradyll? Hey, you have zillions to choose from, so tell us... and then PROVE with the WORD, that your particular version of the "church", is the "true one"?

Hey... you are welcome to choose whichever LIE you wish to propose to others... but remember this, ...YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED... so you will be WITHOUT EXCUSE... amidst your INIQUITY before YHVH...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Jesus decended into paradise of abrahams bosom to preach to the souls there and allow them the grace of the Gospel that had not yet been preached to the old testament saints.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

See, I took all the punctuation out, and it still means "today you will be with me in paradise."

No it still says... verily I say unto thee today you will be with me in paradise.

In order to have understanding where the emphasis is found, which defines the meaning of the phrase, one must look elsewhere in Scripture to find out "WHERE" JESUS was "today"...

He was NOT in "paradise"... He was DEAD.

Mike made a point which you do not disprove with this post...

JESUS was IN the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights -- Matt 12:40-41 -- IN the HEART of the EARTH, ...NOT IN "paradise"... or any other "compartment"

When the women came to the TOMB, the report was that He is not here, HE IS RISEN... RISEN? From what? RISEN? When?

According to YOU, He did not even DIE. or experience DEATH as it is DESCRIBED in the WORD -- Ecc 9:5-6 -- for "IN the DAY" of His crucifixtion He was either (of your 2 versions of Him, wish you would make up your double MIND) -- (1) IN PARADISE with the "theif"... or... (2) IN HELL, preaching to those IN PRISON... Please!

Peace...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

No it still says... verily I say unto thee today you will be with me in paradise.

In order to have understanding where the emphasis is found, which defines the meaning of the phrase, one must look elsewhere in Scripture to find out "WHERE" JESUS was "today"...

He was NOT in "paradise"... He was DEAD.

Mike made a point which you do not disprove with this post...

JESUS was IN the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights -- Matt 12:40-41 -- IN the HEART of the EARTH, ...NOT IN "paradise"... or any other "compartment"

When the women came to the TOMB, the report was that He is not here, HE IS RISEN... RISEN? From what? RISEN? When?

According to YOU, He did not even DIE. or experience DEATH as it is DESCRIBED in the WORD -- Ecc 9:5-6 -- for "IN the DAY" of His crucifixtion He was either (of your 2 versions of Him, wish you would make up your double MIND) -- (1) IN PARADISE with the "theif"... or... (2) IN HELL, preaching to those IN PRISON... Please!

Peace...


...willieH

Christ made a distinction between His soul, and His flesh in this verse

Acts 2:31 states, "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

His soul was in paradise, while His body was in the grave.

I already proved it over and over again in post 534

 

[createdtoworship]

No it still says... verily I say unto thee today you will be with me in paradise.

In order to have understanding where the emphasis is found, which defines the meaning of the phrase, one must look elsewhere in Scripture to find out "WHERE" JESUS was "today"...

If the plain sense of Scripture makes sense, seek no other sense.

That is basic hermeneutics wille

Christ made a distinction between His soul, and His flesh in this verse

Acts 2:31 states, "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

His soul was in paradise, while His body was in the grave.

I already proved it over and over again in post 534

 

[createdtoworship]

Please...

FIRST --- By saying this, you note that those who DOCUMENT HISTORY in this day are documenting LIES? (if it is NEW it is not TRUE?)


SECOND --- There is NO, neither has there ever been, a "ministry" of "annhilation"... Neither is or has ever been, a "miinistry" of "HELL"... (which appears to be your preference)

THIRD --- The ..."True church"? Upon what do you found this, gradyll?

Placing your FAITH in historians... instead of the WORD?

So tell us oh holy one... which "CHURCH" is the "true church" gradyll? Hey, you have zillions to choose from, so tell us... and then PROVE with the WORD, that your particular version of the "church", is the "true one"?

Hey... you are welcome to choose whichever LIE you wish to propose to others... but remember this, ...YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED... so you will be WITHOUT EXCUSE... amidst your INIQUITY before YHVH...


PEACE...


...willieH

the true church through the ages wasn't necessarily the institutionalized churches but was the true reformers of their time like The Waldenses and The Anabaptists. (read the Pilgrim church if you are really interested in the History of the true Church).