Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[createdtoworship]

Please... there are so many things which ...I... have noted of STUDY done by me... and you whine about your COPIED blab (misled arrangements of God's WORD) not gaining a response?

Study to show YOURSELF approved... then maybe you will gain response.

CHRIST DIED (the soul is the breath of life, combined with the flesh of dust, which is therefore become ALIVE -- Gen 2:7 -- once the BREATH of YHVH is removed, the "SOUL" ceases to be LIVING) and Scripture CLEARLY notes it... and I have given you MANY VERSES to "prove it" (and they will not be repeated to a deaf ear)... which YOU purposely IGNORE (desiring to maintain deafness/darkness) ...to your own coming detriment.

Clinging to your "MAN invented TRADITIONS"... instead of reading and seeking as an INDIVIDUAL (aside from ANY MAN) for REVELATION from YHVH.



You are just hilarious...

I have never noted that "Abraham's bosom does not exist"! Please QUOTE where (YOU CLAIM) I have stated that "Abraham's bosom does not exist"... and as always... I won't hold my breath, waiting for something YOU cannot DO...

On the contrary... I have noted WHAT "Abraham's bosom" IS... Which is just one more thing (amongst many) YOU are not aware of...




"THE Universe"? ...Which "Universe", gradyll?

According to YOU, there are potentially zillions of them, which you claim, JESUS traverses in and out of!

As I have already said, and YOU purposely and pridefully IGNORED...

The "bosom of Abraham" is FAITH... Which of course, I have ALREADY "proven"... ...and you have foolishly IGNORED.

So tell us oh holy one... what do YOU think the "bosum of Abraham" IS? ...Or don't you KNOW? If you should (as is your M.O.), purposely IGNORE this question, ...it is simply because you just DON'T KNOW!

So... any further comments about "Abraham's bosom" BY YOU are therefore emergent from an IGNORANT position...

We shall see... I'm bettin' you "DON'T KNOW"... (once again NO BREATH holding will be done by me! )

Hey, don't feel too bad, you have MANY companions...

For MOST of Christianity (the "MANY" -- Matt 7:22-23), embrace the DECIEIVING TRADITIONS (as YOU have already admitted) and WRITINGS/TEACHINGS of OTHER MEN (as YOU have already admitted to your CUT & PASTE beliefs) -- Mark 7:7-10 -- Matt 15:4-9 -- in the stead of bothering to take YOUR/their "precious time" ...and DEDICATING it to STUDY, seeking to find out what the WORD actually DOES SAY... !

Nah. THAT would require great EFFORT from you... ...and the "easy way" is to place your FAITH in what OTHER MEN have said, rather than SEEKING God in HIS WORD, for YOURSELF!

You and your companions, mostly teach doctrines which are not even mentioned in the WORD ...and then THREATEN the WORLD which God so (etenally and unchanginly) LOVES... WITH THEM!

Placing the cart before the horse... Unbelieveable!

I can name MANY of these FALLACIES, if you like... (one of which is the SUBJECT of THIS discussion)


PEACE...


...willieH

no abrahams bosom is not faith, you have no scriptural support for that assumption. Why typify abrahams bosom as faith when Jesus could have simply used the greek word for faith? Secondly, I have just realized that you do not cut and paste because you do not have any sources to quote. Do you have any sources for your information? Do you have any seminaries or commentaries that believe the same way you do? Or are you all alone on this one?

Here a legitimate seminaries view of abrahams bosom

Dallas Theological Seminary:

"The Bible teaches that at death unbelievers go to a place of torments called Hades or Sheol in the Old Testament. It is a temporary place of torment where unbelievers remain until they are resurrected to face the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20. From there they will be cast permanently into the eternal lake of fire.

On the other hand, the Bible teaches that believers go immediately to heaven. Before Christ’s death on the cross for our sin, it was called Abraham’s Bosom. Today, the New Testament declares that believers go directly into the presence of the Lord (cf. Phil. 1:21-24 with 2 Cor. 5:1f). Believers will be resurrected to face the Bema or Judgment Seat where they will be held accountable for this life. At that point their works will be evaluated and, based on the nature of those works, they will either receive rewards or lose rewards. "

Is there a temporary place for the dead, like purgatory? | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

thirdly, I challenge you to provide one legitimate person that believes the same as you, preferably a seminary graduate. If you can't then, your view is simply the minority view and holds no preferential treatment among seminaries or the lead thinkers of Christiainity

fourthly, have you ever gone to seminary or any Bible College? You seem to hold your views in extremely high esteem simply because they are yours and you took 35 years to acquire them. However I actually have attended Bible college and use official Bible college commentaries and works when I "cut and paste".

Fifthly, have you ever read the Bible all the way through? I have five times. No Joke. So sorry if I don't take your views seriously. Or this discussion. I know when a doctrine is unbiblical or not.

 

[WillieH]

gradyll... you are really slipping with each post. Nothing in this post you have written has ANY foundation in the WORD...

Especially the offerings made by the "Dallas The-illogical Cemetary"

no abrahams bosom is not faith, you have no scriptural support for that assumption.

Oh really?

Only one who has studied LITTLE (and depends on others, hoping THEY have "studied") would make such a statement...

(1) Why does CHRIST's geneology begin with ABRAHAM, in Matthew chapter one, gradyll? (Matt 1:1-16)?

It is because it is His FAITH (GOD) geneology... for His EARTHY/FLESHLY (MAN) geneology is DIFFERENT and found in Luke 3:23-38

Why might you suppose these 2 are both DIFFERENT and yet BOTH appear in the WORD of TRUTH, so they must be TRUE? Oh yeah... you haven't studied enough to KNOW why...

(2) How about Hebrews 11? It is all about FAITH... which BEGAN with ABRAHAM -- -- for it is the SEED (of the FAITH generated by and) of ABRAHAM that shall be innumerable as the SAND of the SEA -- Rom 4:16 -- Gen 22:1-18

Why typify abrahams bosom as faith when Jesus could have simply used the greek word for faith? Secondly, I have just realized that you do not cut and paste because you do not have any sources to quote. Do you have any sources for your information? Do you have any seminaries or commentaries that believe the same way you do? Or are you all alone on this one?

I do not "cut and paste"... (though I have enough computer ability and knowledge to do so). ...simpy because I KNOW (the location and content) of all the verses I quote to you by MEMORY... and have no need to quote MISLED idiots to found my beliefs...

I KNOW WHAT the verses SAY, and WHERE they ARE (located) as GOD, via 35 years of dedication to Him, has committed them to my HEART.

Often times, as I open my Bible I turn to the EXACT PAGE (my Bible has 1834 pages) that my reference is on as I discuss with you and others... a miracle of LOVE, given me by LOVE.

Here a legitimate seminaries view of abrahams bosom

"Legitimate"? According to WHO, ...YOU? Please!

No offense bro, but you are much like a little kid... that just will not listen to reason... and must LEARN the hard way... Hey = its your choice!

I explained Abraham's bosom... making REASONABLE sense, you reject it... stick with this unbiblical ...crookedness if you must:

Dallas Theological Seminary:

"The Bible teaches that at death unbelievers go to a place of torments called Hades or Sheol in the Old Testament. It is a temporary place of torment where unbelievers remain until they are resurrected to face the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20. From there they will be cast permanently into the eternal lake of fire.

On the other hand, the Bible teaches that believers go immediately to heaven. Before Christ’s death on the cross for our sin, it was called Abraham’s Bosom. Today, the New Testament declares that believers go directly into the presence of the Lord (cf. Phil. 1:21-24 with 2 Cor. 5:1f). Believers will be resurrected to face the Bema or Judgment Seat where they will be held accountable for this life. At that point their works will be evaluated and, based on the nature of those works, they will either receive rewards or lose rewards. "

Is there a temporary place for the dead, like purgatory? | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

thirdly, I challenge you to provide one legitimate person that believes the same as you, preferably a seminary graduate. If you can't then, your view is simply the minority view and holds no preferential treatment among seminaries or the lead thinkers of Christiainity

Are you a standup comic, or just, a blindly hit & miss, amateur? This post is a double - giggler all the way!!!

Actually NONE of this is - (1) TAUGHT by the BIBLE nor, is any of it even - (2) IN the BIBLE... Which is WHY your "quote" from the "DALLAS THE-ILLOGICAL CEMETARY" is devoid of references to where these things are supposedly, "taught"

There are NO REFERENCES in the WORD which say anything about "going to Hell", or... "going to Heaven"... FIND us one gradyll!

To begin with, ...your "challenges" to me, are meaningless unless YOU can accept CHALLENGES... (and btw, thanks for making all my prophecies of you come true. )

Here is your opportunity to accept a CHALLENGE, that you might be worthy of making one:

As for your CUT & PASTE religion... The "DALLAS The-illogical Cemetary", needs to buy OR borrow itself a BIBLE, as NOTHING that this quote maintains, is even IN the BIBLE, as quoted and approved, by YOU...

(1) Above (as quoted and thereby approved by YOU), ...this "cemetary" person says "THE BIBLE TEACHES that UNBELIEVERS go to a PLACE OF TORMENTS called HADES or SHEOL in the OLD TESTAMENT...

To begin with the Hebrew word SHEOL does not mean a "PLACE of TORMENTS", (it means GRAVE) ....nor did (or DO) the JEWS teach that SHEOL meant "a place of torments"...

Most of the modern translations are OMITTING the word HELL in the OT... and are universally using the term GRAVE in all appearances of SHEOL:

(To mention just a few ) -- YOUNGS LITERAL -- NEW KJV -- NASB -- NIV -- CEV -- DARBY Translation -- ESV -- HOLMAN CHRISTIAN STANDARD BIBLE -- GOOD NEWS Translation

Your contention that SHEOL means "HELL" is unsupported by ALL of these works...

As well, HADES is not a word USED in the OLD TESTAMENT so as far as the OT is concerned it is an IRRELEVANT term...

And furthermore, it is not stated that ANYONE "goes to SHEOL" in the OLD TESTAMENT...

Of course, since YOU believe this... you shall be able to provide the VERSE which states that ----- "UNBELIEVERS go to a place of torments called SHEOL" (in the OT)...


(2) This "cemetary" person, ALSO says BELIEVERS "go immediately to Heaven"

So I am sure YOU can show us where (in the NEW TESTAMENT), this is STATED in the WORD, ...as this cemetary person SAYS the "BIBLE TEACHES THIS", and YOU have given YOUR APPROVAL of it.

Provide just ONE VERSE that clearly (without assumption) SAYS this in the WORD of YHVH (not in a "cemetary opinion" )... Is all I ask you gradyll (again, no BREATH holding will be done by me, but ANOTHER PROPHECY Shall be made! ...

HERE IT IS ----> You will NOT be able to show that the BIBLE TEACHES ANY of THIS, and neither can this charlaton from DALLAS The-ILLOGICAL cemetary"...



*************************************************


As for your comments toward ME:

FIRST --- I only need the WORD combined with REASON, ...to verify my beliefs, not other SINFUL and most assuredly, ERRONEOUS (INIQUITOUS) men... such as preach things that the BIBLE does NOT TEACH...

ESPECIALLY ONE that has "graduated from a ..."CEMETARY" er... "SEMINARY"... (which really amounts to the same thing... )


SECOND --- As far as being part of the MINORITY... Thank GOD I am numbered amongst the FEW... and NOT the MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5


THIRD -- Then the "Lead stinkers"... er, ...thinkers are they with "preferential thinking"? Preferred by what or who? YOU?

Please... don't make me laugh anymore, my side already hurts...

How ridiculous is all of this? (the foul smell of INIQUITY comes forth from these quotations as well as YOUR APPROVAL of them! )

They are preferred by the (INQUITOUS) MANY... amongst which YOU are numbered. Good luck with your cut & paste relgion, bro... seeya at the end...

Remember... NO BREATH holding as you in futility... try to find where the BIBLE TEACHES ...ANY... of these bogus "DALLAS The-illogical cemetary teachings"...



PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

gradyll... you are really slipping with each post. Nothing in this post you have written has ANY foundation in the WORD...

Especially the offerings made by the "Dallas The-illogical Cemetary"



Oh really?

Only one who has studied LITTLE (and depends on others, hoping THEY have "studied") would make such a statement...

(1) Why does CHRIST's geneology begin with ABRAHAM, in Matthew chapter one, gradyll? (Matt 1:1-16)?

It is because it is His FAITH (GOD) geneology... for His EARTHY/FLESHLY (MAN) geneology is DIFFERENT and found in Luke 3:23-38

Why might you suppose these 2 are both DIFFERENT and yet BOTH appear in the WORD of TRUTH, so they must be TRUE? Oh yeah... you haven't studied enough to KNOW why...

(2) How about Hebrews 11? It is all about FAITH... which BEGAN with ABRAHAM -- -- for it is the SEED (of the FAITH generated by and) of ABRAHAM that shall be innumerable as the SAND of the SEA -- Rom 4:16 -- Gen 22:1-18



I do not "cut and paste"... (though I have enough computer ability and knowledge to do so). ...simpy because I KNOW (the location and content) of all the verses I quote to you by MEMORY... and have no need to quote MISLED idiots to found my beliefs...

I KNOW WHAT the verses SAY, and WHERE they ARE (located) as GOD, via 35 years of dedication to Him, has committed them to my HEART.

Often times, as I open my Bible I turn to the EXACT PAGE (my Bible has 1834 pages) that my reference is on as I discuss with you and others... a miracle of LOVE, given me by LOVE.



"Legitimate"? According to WHO, ...YOU? Please!

No offense bro, but you are much like a little kid... that just will not listen to reason... and must LEARN the hard way... Hey = its your choice!

I explained Abraham's bosom... making REASONABLE sense, you reject it... stick with this unbiblical ...crookedness if you must:



Are you a standup comic, or just, a blindly hit & miss, amateur? This post is a double - giggler all the way!!!

Actually NONE of this is - (1) TAUGHT by the BIBLE nor, is any of it even - (2) IN the BIBLE... Which is WHY your "quote" from the "DALLAS THE-ILLOGICAL CEMETARY" is devoid of references to where these things are supposedly, "taught"

There are NO REFERENCES in the WORD which say anything about "going to Hell", or... "going to Heaven"... FIND us one gradyll!

To begin with, ...your "challenges" to me, are meaningless unless YOU can accept CHALLENGES... (and btw, thanks for making all my prophecies of you come true. )

Here is your opportunity to accept a CHALLENGE, that you might be worthy of making one:

As for your CUT & PASTE religion... The "DALLAS The-illogical Cemetary", needs to buy OR borrow itself a BIBLE, as NOTHING that this quote maintains, is even IN the BIBLE, as quoted and approved, by YOU...

(1) Above (as quoted and thereby approved by YOU), ...this "cemetary" person says "THE BIBLE TEACHES that UNBELIEVERS go to a PLACE OF TORMENTS called HADES or SHEOL in the OLD TESTAMENT...

To begin with the Hebrew word SHEOL does not mean a "PLACE of TORMENTS", (it means GRAVE) ....nor did (or DO) the JEWS teach that SHEOL meant "a place of torments"...

Most of the modern translations are OMITTING the word HELL in the OT... and are universally using the term GRAVE in all appearances of SHEOL:

(To mention just a few ) -- YOUNGS LITERAL -- NEW KJV -- NASB -- NIV -- CEV -- DARBY Translation -- ESV -- HOLMAN CHRISTIAN STANDARD BIBLE -- GOOD NEWS Translation

Your contention that SHEOL means "HELL" is unsupported by ALL of these works...

As well, HADES is not a word USED in the OLD TESTAMENT so as far as the OT is concerned it is an IRRELEVANT term...

And furthermore, it is not stated that ANYONE "goes to SHEOL" in the OLD TESTAMENT...

Of course, since YOU believe this... you shall be able to provide the VERSE which states that ----- "UNBELIEVERS go to a place of torments called SHEOL" (in the OT)...


(2) This "cemetary" person, ALSO says BELIEVERS "go immediately to Heaven"

So I am sure YOU can show us where (in the NEW TESTAMENT), this is STATED in the WORD, ...as this cemetary person SAYS the "BIBLE TEACHES THIS", and YOU have given YOUR APPROVAL of it.

Provide just ONE VERSE that clearly (without assumption) SAYS this in the WORD of YHVH (not in a "cemetary opinion" )... Is all I ask you gradyll (again, no BREATH holding will be done by me, but ANOTHER PROPHECY Shall be made! ...

HERE IT IS ----> You will NOT be able to show that the BIBLE TEACHES ANY of THIS, and neither can this charlaton from DALLAS The-ILLOGICAL cemetary"...



*************************************************


As for your comments toward ME:

FIRST --- I only need the WORD combined with REASON, ...to verify my beliefs, not other SINFUL and most assuredly, ERRONEOUS (INIQUITOUS) men... such as preach things that the BIBLE does NOT TEACH...

ESPECIALLY ONE that has "graduated from a ..."CEMETARY" er... "SEMINARY"... (which really amounts to the same thing... )


SECOND --- As far as being part of the MINORITY... Thank GOD I am numbered amongst the FEW... and NOT the MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5


THIRD -- Then the "Lead stinkers"... er, ...thinkers are they with "preferential thinking"? Preferred by what or who? YOU?

Please... don't make me laugh anymore, my side already hurts...

How ridiculous is all of this? (the foul smell of INIQUITY comes forth from these quotations as well as YOUR APPROVAL of them! )

They are preferred by the (INQUITOUS) MANY... amongst which YOU are numbered. Good luck with your cut & paste relgion, bro... seeya at the end...

Remember... NO BREATH holding as you in futility... try to find where the BIBLE TEACHES ...ANY... of these bogus "DALLAS The-illogical cemetary teachings"...



PEACE...


...willieH

so in 35 years of studying you proved that science is wrong and the atom does not exist, secondly you proved that ALL seminaries are wrong? You have a problem with authority figures. And I think you have a problem with the discipline of study. You are not disciplined enough to seek out others which hold your view, so to me you are all alone in your views. You must be so selfish that you actually believe you are the only one in the world with the true knowledge of scripture. This is a characteristic of Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons too.

 

[LutheranMafia]

What?

I believe in an after life, a life after this life, after the resurrection.

You just don't like this afterlife.

Well, that is the reason why I specified in the poll questions "an afterlife in Heaven or Hell", so as to remove all ambiguity. The thread topic did not have enough space to add "Heaven or Hell", so I had to leave it out of the thread title.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I found another verse that talks about the fate of the soul after death:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.
Revelation 20:4
​

Obviously if they have been beheaded they are dead, and yet their souls continue to exist even after death.

 

[WillieH]

I realize that you are on a misled pathway, But what about THESE LIES you just noted:

so in 35 years of studying you proved that science is wrong

LIE # (1) - WHERE have I SAID (quote post # and thread title) that I have PROVEN that "Science is wrong"? I have only noted that they OFTEN propose as FACT, ...UNPROVEN SPECULATIONS

and the atom does not exist

LIE # (2) - WHERE have I SAID (quote post # and thread title) that "the ATOM does NOT EXIST?" I have only noted that they have PROVEN NOTHING concerning the ATOM... and that most of their proposals of this UNSEEN entity, are based upon SPECULATION.

secondly you proved that ALL seminaries are wrong?

LIE # (3) - WHERE have I SAID (quote post # and thread title) that I have PROVEN "ALL SEMENARIES are WRONG"? I certainly proved that the DALLAS The-illogical cemetary" is amiss in all the statement points which YOU provided... and DID so with SCRIPTURE...

You have a problem with authority figures.

FIRST -- Just because YOU accept a MISLED source or individual, and then call that source or individual... "authoritative", does not mean that ithe source or individual, ...indeed IS " ...authoritative. On the basis that YOU have deemed it so!

SECOND --- I certainly DO NOT have problems with "authority figures".

Just because I do not accept the "Dallas The-illogical Semenary" as an "authority", does not mean I have a problem with authority. Get real!


THIRD --- I have NEVER in 66 years, been in Jail or arrested, or recieved any reprimand due to "bucking" authority at any time! You do not KNOW anything about me, yet think to DEDUCE me? Get a clue bro...

Just because someone erects or establishes a "school" and then propose to teach about SPIRITUAL things, does not mean THEY are "authoritative", nor "qualified" SPIRITUALLY, to teach ANYTHING concerning the WORD of YHVH...

I QUESTION any "teacher" or "teaching" that proposes things:

(1) -- NOT mentioned in the WORD...

(2) -- is UNREASONABLE ...disagreeing with LOGIC...

(3) -- Fails to coincide with LOVE and its attributes of honor, protection, safety, forgivness, grace, and especially JUSTICE...

(4) -- Does not provide SCRIPTURAL basis (to include original language word meanings) for their contentions.

Just because one makes the CLAIM to represent GOD, does not mean that the "claim" is therefore VALID... on the basis that THEY made it!

And I think you have a problem with the discipline of study.

Oh really? Well,

(1) what YOU "think" is irrelevant to me...

(2) you must define "DISCIPLINE" and note said definition publicly before it can be significantly applied to anyone... which you have NOT.

(3) I have studied in many different church environments, as well as discussed with highly LITERATE people (pastors, lawyers, doctors, scientists, judges, etc)... ALL of which FAR exceed YOUR ability to discuss... so your contention that I. have "discipline problems" is ludicrous at best.

If either of us has "discipline problems" it clearly is demonstrated in our replies to one another (illustrated in this one, btw).

As, ...I answer your questions but YOU avoid mine... I respond basically to ALL you say... and YOU GENERALIZE each reply, failing to address ANYTHING in the post made in response to you.

In my experience in living life (66 years / raising 3 children / 10 grandchildren / and a marriage of 35+ years), Though I am far from PERFECT, and openly admit it, with much to LEARN, ...the one resorting to such UNSUBSTANCIATED name calling and unbased speculations, as you have in this post usually is the one with the problems.

Without trying or intending to offend, rather giving a truthful observation, ...you are much like a child in your LACK of ability to respond or discuss...

You are not disciplined enough to seek out others which hold your view, so to me you are all alone in your views.

JESUS stood alone at the cross...so, I am in good company.

Anyway, MAN cannot VERIFY truth... only the WORD of TRUTH (which YOU avoid STUDYING, and resort to COPYING others concerning it), can do so.

I have provided MUCH Scriptural basis for my beliefs... and all YOU are able to do is COPY your "beliefs" from someone else... Pretty pathetic...

You are dwarfed in Spiritual conversation with me, ...simply because I rely on the WORD of YHVH God and call upon years of dedication TO IT, ...whereas, YOU rely on the "Dallas The-illogical Cemetary"...

You must be so selfish that you actually believe you are the only one in the world with the true knowledge of scripture. This is a characteristic of Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons too.

FIRST --- It sounds to me like you are quite jealous of them, gradyll!

To their credit (JW's & Mormons), ...at least they have bothered to state their cases and beliefs with the WORD... and have deduced it themselves, ...wihich is more than can be said for you, and your "cut & paste" religion.


SECOND --- As far as YOU proposing that I --- "am the only one in the world with true knowledge of scripture"... I have made no such claim... I seek God DAILY... and CORRECTION DAILY... willing to ACCEPT TRUTH, rather than BLINDLY INSIST upon my beliefs, are "truth" on the basis that "I believe them"! Which is pretty much your COPIED "philosophy"

There are SEVERAL "unorthodox" BELIEVERS out there with much TRUE KNOWLEDGE (which I became aware of AFTER GOD had revealed me many various revelations of TRUTH)...

Though I am not in complete agreement with any or all of them, both they and myself are seeking and LEARNING, Spiritual TRUTH and I am VERY condifent we shall ALL arrive together in the same place on ALL THINGS, one day!

Here are a few links to their sites (not that you shall visit them and learn, OR even go to these sites, to verify what I say --

Btw... let it be known that I post as much if not MORE, ...for others watching this discussion, CERTAINLY NOT just for YOU ...Here are the links:

L. Ray Smith -- L. Ray Smith - Exposing Those Who Contradict

J. Preston Eby -- Kingdom Bible Studies Table of Contents

Elwin Roach -- The Pathfinder by Elwin and Margit Roach: End-time Bible studies, Reconciliation, Sonship, the Kingdom of God

Harold Lovelace -- Dr. Harold Lovelace Ministries and his book, "Read and Search God's Plan"

Bob Torango -- The House of The Lord: Robert and Charlotte Torango

Gary Amirault -- Jesus saves all mankind, the truly Good News, Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation--Doctrine of Inclusion--Restitution of all--glorious gospel--Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ


Hey --- No one (including the above mentioned men OR myself) KNOWS IT ALL, and CERTAINLY NOT the "Dallas The-illogical Cemetary"... (which subsequently includes YOU and your ENDORSEMENT of it as well, ...seeing that you heartily approve of their MISLED foolishnesses... which note such as -- "HADES and SHEOL as a PLACE of TORMENT" , when these WORDS do NOT carry this meaning at all!!! --- Please!

THIRD --- As far as SELFISHNESS... I am UNSELFISH in my teachings which propose Salvation for ALL... and basically because I SEEK, WISH and DESIRE that GOD's desires and INTENT get fulfilled -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- that NONE PERISH, and His INTENT that ALL come to REPENTENCE, ...even to go as far in my UNSELFISHNESS, by calling YOU (which seeks to demote me), a Son of the MOST HIGH! ...(albeit, misled in this moment).

Maybe one day you will learn to discuss from a position of KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING, gained of dedication to GOD and His WORD, ...rather than busily COPYING the beliefs of another... and then falsely NAMING them YOUR OWN... using them (as did the Pharisees of old against CHRIST) to try to exalt yourself above others.


Regardless of your misled intentions, I wish you:


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

I found another verse that talks about the fate of the soul after death:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.
Revelation 20:4
​

Obviously if they have been beheaded they are dead, and yet their souls continue to exist even after death.

This text is SPIRITUALLY SYMBOLIC -- Rev 1:1 -- and cannot be interpreted as LITERAL... as well, any ATHEIST can come to the very same conclusion that you have proposed above in reading it.

We cannot "pick and choose" which things are LITERAL and which are SYMBOLIC... so they shall agree with our religion.

If we take this book as LITERAL in one place, we must take it in all places... which note that -- STARS which turn WATERS of EARTH into WOOD -- Rev 8:11 -- and 4 BEASTS FULL OF EYES -- inside -- Rev 4:8 -- and many others which sound RIDICULOUS in the LITERAL observation of them.


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

This text is SPIRITUALLY SYMBOLIC -- Rev 1:1 -- and cannot be interpreted as LITERAL... as well, any ATHEIST can come to the very same conclusion that you have proposed above in reading it.

We cannot "pick and choose" which things are LITERAL and which are SYMBOLIC... so they shall agree with our religion.

If we take this book as LITERAL in one place, we must take it in all places... which note that -- STARS which turn WATERS of EARTH into WOOD -- Rev 8:11 -- and 4 BEASTS FULL OF EYES -- inside -- Rev 4:8 -- and many others which sound RIDICULOUS in the LITERAL observation of them.


PEACE...


...willieH

so the end of the world is just symbolic and not real huh? Nice theology.

 

[createdtoworship]

You are dwarfed in Spiritual conversation with me,

I guess I was right about your lack of respect for authority figures (no not all seminaries are cemetaries and illogical). throw a rock into a pack of wolves and the one who barks the loudest is the one who got hit. I guess you just got hit by the Holy Spirit, and thats why you are so defensive. secondly, you need to look up the word "humility" and do a good Bible study on that word, because from what I just quoted above, your lacking in it. thirdly, none of your sources and links you post are from seminaries accept one guy (lovelace), but his schools agree with eternal hell so you are still without anyone who agrees with you. At least any respectable people, and people who have the discipline to actually go to school and finish a degree. You wouldn’t want to go to a doctor that had only watched ER and read books about surgery would you? Regardless of how skilled that doctor might be, you want to know where they went to medical school. It's the same with theology.

 

[LutheranMafia]

This text is SPIRITUALLY SYMBOLIC -- Rev 1:1 -- and cannot be interpreted as LITERAL... as well, any ATHEIST can come to the very same conclusion that you have proposed above in reading it.

You completely lost me here. How can an any theist come to any conclusion about Rev 1:1. An atheist would just dismiss the whole thing a priori.

We cannot "pick and choose" which things are LITERAL and which are SYMBOLIC... so they shall agree with our religion.

I do not view the book of Revelation as symbolic. While it is hard to grasp certain aspects of the spiritual world and so the images presented in trying to convey it sound unusual, there is a literal truth to all of it.

If we take this book as LITERAL in one place, we must take it in all places... which note that -- STARS which turn WATERS of EARTH into WOOD -- Rev 8:11 --

It says that a shooting star called Wormwood turn much of the waters "bitter" (read poisonous). When Chernobyl exploded satellite photos of it looked just a shooting star with it's head plunged into the ground. As it turns out, the word Chernobyl in Ukrainian means wormwood. And of course the radioactive water has been killing people ever since.

and 4 BEASTS FULL OF EYES -- inside -- Rev 4:8 -- and many others which sound RIDICULOUS in the LITERAL observation of them.

I believe it is literally true in the spirit realm. If you seek a physical explanation than you are no better off in understanding it than an atheist would be.

 

[LutheranMafia]

LIE # (2) - WHERE have I SAID (quote post # and thread title) that "the ATOM does NOT EXIST?" I have only noted that they have PROVEN NOTHING concerning the ATOM... and that most of their proposals of this UNSEEN entity, are based upon SPECULATION.

Doesn't sound like a lie to me, it sounds like he hit the nail on the head. It seems to me more like you have a problem in being forthcoming and are acting in a shifty manner.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The prize is resurrection to eternal life.

So you still haven't answered my question. What is and where is the kingdom of Heaven right now? At the resurrection the Earth will become part of the kingdom of Heaven, but it exists right now, so where is it and what is it?

 

[WillieH]

Here is another post for YOU to AVOID...

so the end of the world is just symbolic and not real huh? Nice theology.

The "END of the WORLD" is matter which is discussed in Scripture elsewhere -- Matt 28:19-20

But, ..."speaking of "nice theology"...

Where is the "end of the World" ...mentioned in the Book of Revelation, ...gradyll?

Btw... does the "Dallas The-illogical Cemetary" have ANYTHING to say on the matter?


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Are you guys a (tagteam) comedy team? (you & gradyll) ...if so, which one is IT?

Doesn't sound like a lie to me, it sounds like he hit the nail on the head. It seems to me more like you have a problem in being forthcoming and are acting in a shifty manner.

Yeah... right! ...I have NOT AVOIDED either of you... but BOTH of you have AVOIDED me, and my questions of you...

Methinks YOU & gradyll are the ones having "a problem in being forthcoming and are acting in a shifty manner"

Please! ...mr. "nailhead hitter"...

That I choose to NOT place my faith in that which SCIENCE declares (without proof) to be "fact"... is my own choice, and has nothing whatsoever to do with "forthrightness" or "shiftyness"!

Try answering some of my questions of you there, "SHIFTY"... er, ...I mean LM. ...and practice a little "forthrightness" for a change! (and thereby cease being "shifty" for a while!)

peace...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

Where is the "end of the World" ...mentioned in the Book of Revelation, ...gradyll?

Btw... does the "Dallas The-illogical Cemetary" have ANYTHING to say on the matter?

what do you think the seven seals, and bowl judgments are? When He creates a new heaven and earth, what do you think happened to the old earth?

Here is Dallas Theological Seminary on revelation
A Rave Review (Revelation 1-22) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

 

[WillieH]

Originally Posted by WillieH

You are dwarfed in Spiritual conversation with me,
​

I said this not to exalt myself over you... and I apologize (in re-reading it) for how it likely appeared to you.

Rather, what I meant in saying this, is that I have followed the course outlined in the WORD -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- by STUDYING diligently with dedication to the WORD, ...and you have made it more than obvious, that YOU have not.

I, of myself am nothing. But when I seek, and thereby have GAINED the WORD as MY TESTIMONY... (which I have)... then I present YHVH to YOU (regardless of me) ...it is THAT PRESENTATION (not me), which dwarfs you and your unspiritual position which attempts to stand against it.

I guess I was right about your lack of respect for authority figures (no not all seminaries are cemetaries and illogical).

"Seminaries" (like cemetaries) are wrought and founded, of MEN.

Those men, are diligently following (handed down) TRADTION, which is NOT ALTERED (when correction is needed), ...nor is that TRADITION about seeking FURTHER REVELATION... rather, rests upon ITSELF and then in its "SELF-APPOINTED authority"... is embraced by such SHEEP as yourself... which APPROVE of them, rather than QUESTION or FOUND their proposals via YOUR OWN effort in Study of GODS WORD... which notes:

2 Tim 2:15 -- STUDY to show THYSELF APPROVED unto GOD, a WORKMAN that needeth NOT be ASHAMED, rightly dividing the WORD of TRUTH...

The WORD does NOT say: "EMBRACE the findings of the DALLAS (or any other) The-ILLOGICAL Cemetary, as they are the "AUTHORITY" of God's WORD".

throw a rock into a pack of wolves and the one who barks the loudest is the one who got hit. I guess you just got hit by the Holy Spirit, and thats why you are so defensive.

I am not in the least "defensive"... Please, don't make me laugh!

There is no need to defend the WORD. It stands ALMIGHTY... without need for any excuse, as you resort to, ...having no beliefs of your own, rather are the product of the"DALLAS The-ILLLOGICAL Cemetary" and/or other like institutions of MAN.

It is you which is "defensive"... as you stand upon the sinking and tainted SAND of the "DALLAS The-ILLLOGICAL Cemetary"

I provide the WORD in my responses to you... and REST upon the WORD as my "fortress"... and my "guide"... and my "foundation"...

Whereas YOU rest upon the speakings of the "DALLAS The-ILLLOGICAL Cemetary" -- and rest upon, ...whatever IT might SAY... as your foundation.

secondly, you need to look up the word "humility" and do a good Bible study on that word, because from what I just quoted above, your lacking in it.

I have made apology for the wording, either you accept it or not, that is your choice. Either way it shall not affect me further.

Concerning the SUBJECT of SPIRITUAL conversation, ...I have already defined my position, which IS definitely HUMBLE before YHVH, ...and is needed or necessary before YOU, nor before the "DALLAS The-ILLLOGICAL Cemetary" ...

That YOU do not respond to questions asked of you, nor to REASON, is your own affair concerning your own need to look up the word --- "humility"

thirdly, none of your sources and links you post are from seminaries accept one guy (lovelace), but his schools agree with eternal hell so you are still without anyone who agrees with you.

FIRST --- You are mistaken. Try again (that is if you have tried at all! ) Harold Lovelace is an advocate of the SALVATION of ALL MEN... The ORTHODOX doctrine of "HELL" does not coincide with the premise that ALL will be SAVED.

SECOND --- Please! ...You have hardly researched those sites... It takes weeks if not months to investigate the material found in them. So your statement above is just another FALSEHOOD... weakly representing yourSELF as having visited these sites, and the information and beliefs present in them.

THIRD --- "Cemetaries" such as the "DALLAS The-ILLLOGICAL Cemetary" are NOT a GOD annointed scenario.

Where in the WORD does it say to: "Establish cemetaries, based upon TRADTION, and cease the pursuit of further REVELATION from God"

Well... THAT is the function of your "cemetaries"... as CHRIST named and defined such "religious" TRADITIONISTS:

Matt 23:27 -- Woe unto you SCRIBES [writers], PHARISEES [religious leadership], HYPOCRITES! For ye are like unto "Whited sepulchres" which indeed APPEAR beautiful outward, but are WITHIN, full of DEAD men's BONES, and of ALL UNCLEANESS...

At least any respectable people, and people who have the discipline to actually go to school and finish a degree.

You stand weakly upon your own self determinations of what IS or IS NOT "respectable"...

What IS "RESPECTABLE" according to the WORD, ...is to STUDY to SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- Acts 17:11 -- It is NOBLE (respectable/honorable) to SEARCH the Scriptures, ...not to COPY the writings of others, and then, ...call them your BELEIFS.

Where in the WORD are we instructed to "go to a school, and finish a degree" concerning BIBLE research? There is NO SUCH MANDATE, which YOU note above as "respectable"... On the contrary... You need to make an effort to STUDY as an INDIVIDUAL... not collect anothers ideas, and call them "respectable"... Get a clue bro...

You wouldn’t want to go to a doctor that had only watched ER and read books about surgery would you?

Hmmm... and where did the INFORMATION that "doctors" gain, come from gradyll? Did it appear magically in some SCHOOL? Or is it the accumulations of PRACTICE and OBSERVATION, as well as the MERCY of God which also bestows physical compassion (brimstone) to us while we are IN this LAKE of FIRE?

Hey, ...I have been a PROFESSIONAL Musician for over 45 years (still doing it, still getting paid)... and NO ONE ever "taught" me a thing about the instruments I play (which include -- guitar, keyboards, midi programming, drum programming, bass)!

I did not have to go to a "school" to learn how to play music! Who "taught" the FIRST PIANIST, gradyll?

Medicine has been practiced for centuries (even in ANCIENT man), LONG before there were SCHOOLS which taught it! No "ER's" to go to... j

Most of MANKIND has endured with just a guy with a knife, or a philosphy that says he can help you!

Where do you think the SCHOOLS get the KNOWLEDGE they teach, dude? Are you that thick-headed to IGNORE such simple LOGIC?

Regardless of how skilled that doctor might be, you want to know where they went to medical school. It's the same with theology.

Come on... ...Who does this? I doubt that ANYONE does this (except maybe YOU)

I have been treated by many doctors, and have YET to ask ANY of them "where they went to school"! Even then, just because they went to a given school does not INSURE ANY of the forthcoming treatment!

I say ...NO... so sorry to inform you, ...it is NOT the SAME! ...you have even gone so far as decieving YOURSELF, gradyll...

The study of GOD, is done by those who dedicate their WHOLE HEART in the PURSUIT of Him -- Jer 29:14 -- not to some "stick in the mud" institution" such as the "DALLAS The-ILLLOGICAL Cemetary" which takes their tainted findings, then proclaims them as TRUTH to SHEEP such as yourself... and supposedly, "VOILA"... YOU now have SPIRITUAL understanding.

Within the VERSE I have quoted to you -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- It NAMES that within the proposed INDIVIDUAL STUDY, is a WORKMAN... not a PEW warmer that gets PROGRAMMED by some guy behind a PODIUM... or goes to a SCHOOL which REVEALS God to them! Honestly man, ...get real!

GOD's WORD is not an "accumulation" accomplished by MEN over a period of TIME, ...that is found in a "SCHOOL" such as the "DALLAS The-ILLLOGICAL Cemetary"

That which has become the practice of medicine is a work of MAN!

The understanding of YHVH and His CHRIST, is a MAJESTY which is SHED upon those dedicated TO IT... and ONLY unto them... which are FEW in number... as the LAZY, sit in their places, and foolishly EAT that which is FED them, ...rather then DILGENTLY seeking the TREASURE of YHVH -- Matt 13:44 -- found ONLY within the HONOR of research done by ones own effort and dedication -- Prov 25:2

As the MANY actively DECIEVE those to whom they speak -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- FALSELY proclaiming they are "come in the name of CHRIST, and that they "do" ...wonderful works... ...which are nothing but INIQUITY... and their SHAME shall be made KNOWN unto them, personally by JESUS CHRIST.

You are welcome to your (albeit crooked) pathway... here's hoping you shall abandon it, and research for YOURSELF one day dear brother, ...as always, ...I wish you HIS...


PEACE...

...willieH

 

[WillieH]

what do you think the seven seals, and bowl judgments are? When He creates a new heaven and earth, what do you think happened to the old earth?

Here is Dallas Theological Seminary on revelation
A Rave Review (Revelation 1-22) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

Where is the END of the WORLD noted in REVELATION? Answer the question. (if you can)... It should be apparent to most, that I am not even SLIGHTLY interested in the words of the "DALLAS The-ILLOGICAL cemetary"

Answer the question ...by providing the VERSE which notes IN the book of REVELATION--- the END of the WORLD...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

Where is the END of the WORLD noted in REVELATION? Answer the question. (if you can)... It should be apparent to most, that I am not even SLIGHTLY interested in the words of the "DALLAS The-ILLOGICAL cemetary"

Answer the question ...by providing the VERSE which notes IN the book of REVELATION--- the END of the WORLD...


PEACE...


...willieH

Revelation 21:1
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[WillieH]

Revelation 21:1
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

This is SYMBOLIC language... and this VERSE, says NOTHING about "the ...END of the WORLD"!

When will you learn that the book of REVELATION is about the REVEALING of a SPIRITUAL entity... JESUS CHRIST... which is the WORD of LOVE (God) -- 1 John 4:8 -- Who, ...oh yeah... IS a SPIRIT -- John 4:23 -- and,

His WORD will be understood ONLY within THE hearts of those who SEEK Him, and are IN SPIRIT ...not immersed WITHIN the (copying of the) CARNALITY of FLESHLY minds and the TRADITION of said CARNALITY -- Matt 15:6

Which promptly attempts to arrange SPIRITUAL and SYMBOLIC terminology to suit and support his/her RELIGION, and gets no more out of it than does any typical unbeliever or even an atheist, within said SPIRIT-LESS observation of it!

The WORD of YHVH is NOT a "LITERAL" HORROR STORY ...filled with Never ending WRATH and TORMENT and ... which seeks to DESTROY most of what He CREATES! ...for crying out loud! How could LOVE be so extensively and erroneously reported, when His OWN speak of him as worse than HITLER? Burning His "LOVED" ones mercilessly, FOREVER?


The WORD of YHVH (which the book of Revelation is about REVEALING) is a LOVE STORY ...which is about the RESCUING -- Luke 19:10 -- of that which has become LOST ...bringing home, ...His complete number of SHEEP! (destroyed/Apollumi = LOST SON, LOST SHEEP, LOST COIN!). -- Luke 15:4-6

What JESUS CHRIST IS, does not EVER change -- Heb 13:8
-- He that said "FORGIVE them for they KNOW not what they DO"... Shall not EVER turn into an UNREASONABLE, VENGENT MONSTER bent on DESTRUCTION!

Is THAT the JESUS which you sing of... @ Christmas time, gradyll? ...Or @ church? ...Or @ a FUNERAL?

If NOT, then you are totally confused. For this VENGENT, Inventor of HELL "God" is he of whom you continually speak of on this forum...


Rev 21:1 -- speaks of a New Heaven and a New Earth...

WE are the 1st Earth gradyll... and the "New Heaven" is a heart converted gradyll... for the HEART of MAN is the TEMPLE of GOD -- 1 Cor 6:19

The BODY and HEART of MAN which is NOW present as "earth" and "heaven" ...and is that which is in need of RE-CREATION! -- 2 Cor 5:17

The word CREATURE or CREATION is -- #G2937 - KTSIS -- which is the term used in both --- Mark 10:6 -- 2 Cor 5:17 -- one applying to "PHYSICAL CREATION" the other to "SPIRITUAL CREATION"...



VESSELS of DISHONOR (1st) and HONOR (last)

...we are ALL, BOTH...

Applying to all of us: (Rom 9:21) "...OF THE SAME LUMP" (of PHYSICAL Clay)... the FIRST Heart and Body (Heaven & Earth) were created to walk the pathway of DISHONOR -- Rom 9:21-23 -- Gen 2:7 -- to LIVE the life of SIN unto DEATH...

Then RAISED a NEW CREATION (New Heaven & New Earth) -- RAISED from the DEATH of LIFE, in and by the SPIRIT -- 1 Cor 15:42-51 -- IN the IMAGE of GOD, which KNOWS Good and Evil... exactly Like HIM in EVERY WAY, for,

HE IS, ...in His "UNCHANGING" and "EVERLASTING" WAY, ALL--IN--ALL! - 1 Cor 15:28

YHVH making Us ---> HIM = HIM <---- Us! = ALL--IN--ALL

This is much bigger than YOU presently PROPOSE in FLESHLY thinking...

Rather YOU are a SON of the MOST HIGH... Not just a refugee from SIN... or 1 of an INNUMMERABLE species... but a LIVING PART of His LIVING KNOWLEDGE of YHVH God, ...which KNOWS Good and EVIL...

SPECIAL because WITHOUT YOU, the KNOWLEDGE is INCOMPLETE!

For a moment, be willing to drop religious pride, and for a moment, ...open your eyes to something NEW... and,

KNOW that it is your destiny to LOVE the WORLD as does HE -- John 3:16-17 -- Even if it REQUIRED your LIFE, you would do it!

For THAT is the IMAGE of GOD = JESUS CHRIST who did EXACTLY THAT by giving His life for US! JESUS joined GOD's LOVE for US...

Then and ONLY THEN can you KNOW that you are SO much MORE than just SPECIAL, as you are made in HIS OWN IMAGE...

With the same GLORY -- Psalm 82:5-7 -- HIS SONS... an innumerable number as the SAND of the SEA or the STARS of HEAVEN, ...made in the SPITTIN' IMAGE of Him -- each, a needed WORD within His PERFECT, and COMPLETE and LIVING SPEECH named JESUS CHRIST, which contains within it, the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

WE are that ORATION, gradyll! You and Me!

WE are the very LIVING WORDS being spoken from the MOUTH of the ALMIGHTY YHVH -- Isaiah 55:11-- the GRANDEST, and most LOVING GRAMPA of them ALL! And He is ours and we are His... Praise be unto His name! YHVH

Forever He is and we are... BECOME KNOWN before ALL of Heaven and Earth, via the participation of YHVH, and of EACH [SON/WORD/MAN] -- that is spoken into LIFE upon EARTH -- John 1:1-9


In the DEATH of the SAVIOR, ...are we all KNOWN... as part of Him...

In the RESURRECTION to LIFE of the SAVIOR, ...are we also... ALL KNOWN... as part of Him...


YOU are the NEW CREATION, gradyll... the NEW Heaven, and the NEW Earth...

REASON notes that GOD does not need to RE-CREATE Mud, and Water, and Trees, and Mountains, who hae all suffered from the presence of US... That which needs to RE-CREATION, is ...US...

Wherever GOD is... HEAVEN is!

The SINFULNESS, UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and UNGODLINESS of MEN is the problem! Not the BEAUTIFUL Creation which GOD named as VERY GOOD in its creation/revelation -- Gen 1:31

The EARTH did nothing wrong gradyll! And certainly does not need RE-CREATING... it is MAN which needs it!

The EARTH in spite of man remains BEAUTIFUL in case you haven't noticed! The only parts of EARTH that are not BEAUTIFUL, is where MAN has tainted it with his presence and his doings.


Don't know if you will, but... TRY AGAIN (for you have failed) to find a verse in the BOOK of REVELATION that notes "the ...END of the WORLD"...

As always...


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[strangertoo]

... the wages of sin is death , no more, no less :-

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

note that eternal life is a GIFT ,but only through Jesus Christ, accepting his law of love , which means not being unloving by sinning against others any more... we all sinned, but Jesus showed us not only that we can stop, but that we must stop before we are acceptable to God :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.