Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Ignatius the Evangelist]

Wow, the original "Let's talk about hell" thread was started on May 3rd, 2010.
It's still going.

Indeed! That's because it's a helluva subject

 

[Sophrosyne]

lazerus had to die twice then, I guess he didn't pay enough the first time he died.

and what about Jesus.... if the wages of our sins is death how could his body physically die, come back to life, and die again billions of times for all those he paid our sin debt for?

 

[NEW SONG]

Jesus destroyed death and hell in the Lake of Fire. If there is no more death or hell then how can hell be eternal. Besides man is not an etenal being.... man had a beginning.

This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It bespeaks of the conclusion, consummation and termination of the process. It means the final subjugation and destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom. And all the instruments necessary to accomplish this are in His hands and at His command.

To kill with DEATH

There is an amazing and significant statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death."! How does one kill with death?
What can this cryptic statement mean?

To kill with death means a death by death. Later on in the book of Revelation the same truth is presented thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14). Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire!

"Our God is a consuming fire.

This fact is extremely IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. Nor is the second death men being tortured forever in the lake of fire.


The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

That is the Holy Spirit's definition, not mine

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire.

That is the end of death and hell and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire.

He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire.

How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! God's Kingdom shall rule over all and God Himself shall be All-in-all. There shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell

. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death?

How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape?

Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire -- it is sin and death and hell that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). "And there shall be no more death: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! "And power was given unto them to kill...with death. " 0, the wonder of it! J Preson Eby

 

[createdtoworship]

Jesus destroyed death and hell in the Lake of Fire. If there is no more death or hell then how can hell be eternal. Besides man is not an etenal being.... man had a beginning.

This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It bespeaks of the conclusion, consummation and termination of the process. It means the final subjugation and destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom. And all the instruments necessary to accomplish this are in His hands and at His command.

To kill with DEATH

There is an amazing and significant statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death."! How does one kill with death?
What can this cryptic statement mean?

To kill with death means a death by death. Later on in the book of Revelation the same truth is presented thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14). Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire!

"Our God is a consuming fire.

This fact is extremely IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. Nor is the second death men being tortured forever in the lake of fire.


The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

That is the Holy Spirit's definition, not mine

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire.

That is the end of death and hell and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire.

He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire.

How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! God's Kingdom shall rule over all and God Himself shall be All-in-all. There shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell

. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death?

How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape?

Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire -- it is sin and death and hell that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). "And there shall be no more death: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! "And power was given unto them to kill...with death. " 0, the wonder of it! J Preson Eby

Hades was cast into the lake of fire. Hades traditionally had two compartments, paradise and torments. Both will be thrown into the lake of fire. Sort of like the old testament hell will be thrown into the ultimate hell (mainly because it is not used anymore).

Young's Literal Translation of Revelation 20:14
and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this is the second death;

secondly, even it were hell, being tossed in. Hell would still exist. It would be like me taking a small microwave and melting it in a huge microwave. I would still have a microwave.

 

[Mikecpking]

talking about a physical ascension, like Christ did...

"And as Christ died, so he rose again, according to the scriptures; and that he did so we are witnesses. (3.) Here is a glance at his ascension too. As David did not rise from the dead, so neither did he ascend into the heavens, bodily, as Christ did,"

Henry, Matthew: Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible : Complete and Unabridged in One Volume. Peabody : Hendrickson, 1996, c1991, S. Ac 2:14

Not talking about the soul going to heaven

"He intreateth not in this place of the soul of David, whether it were received into blessed rest, and the heavenly dwelling or no; but the ascending into heaven comprehendeth under it those things which Paul teacheth in the Epistle to the Ephesians, (Ephesians 4:9&#65279, where he placeth Christ above all heavens, that he may fulfill all things"

Calvin, John: Calvin's Commentaries: Acts. electronic ed. Albany, OR : Ages Software, 1998 (Logos Library System; Calvin's Commentaries), S. Ac 2:34

Can you show one place in scripture where a soul goes to Heaven? This is shown to be nonsense, because if souls go to heaven, what is tghe point of a resurrection? Duality is not taught in scripture and is mere speculation based upon Greek philosophy.

 

[WillieH]

kindness may lead us to repentance as has already been shown but you need to prove your point about repentance being caused by God himself on behalf of the sinner. Because leading one to repent and CAUSING repentance are two different things. If you can't prove your point, this discussion is over. I believe repentance is the one thing a sinner must do to be saved, along with believe in the saviour. Secondly, repentance is a lot more than a change of mind that Jesus is Lord. It is a repentance of moral consequence, from darkness to light.

here is more repentance verses for you to prove your position wrong (that God does the repentance for us)

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. -1 John 5:18

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is borna of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. -1 John 3:7-10

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth , that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
Galatians 6:7-9

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath givene assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:30-32

“...the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, and that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in time. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient to unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. “
Acts 26:16-20

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise , as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. “-2 Peter 3:9

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. -Matthew 10:32-33

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. -Luke 12:8-9

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offendd thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. –Matthew 5:7

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. –Matthew 6:14-15

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. –Matthew 4:17

“And they went out, and preached that men should repent.” –Mark 6:12

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; -Luke 3:3

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” –Romans 8:13

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Racac, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. –Matthew 5:22

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”-Ephesians 5:3-7

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. -Matthew 18:3-6

I have already PROVEN that GOD SAVES us (including the "step" called "repentence") WITHOUT any "assistance from us whatsoever... all this blab above, does nothing to change what I have already noted.

I lived your "orthodox" beliefs for close to 25 years... and have no further use for them WHATSOEVER... as they lie on the SURFACE of spiritual understanding.

Drink your milk if you must bro... I don't have time to keep re-addressing what I have already stated to you.

PEACE...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Hades was cast into the lake of fire. Hades traditionally had two compartments, paradise and torments.

Your problem (TRADITION - Mark 15:6 -- Matt 7:13) expressed in your own words...

PROVE with the WORD that "HADES" has "2 compartments" ...paradise and torments

The GREEK word HADES is the word for GRAVE as noted UNIVERSALLY in the SEPTUAGINT (greek trans of entire Bible) wherever either SHEOL [OT] or HADES [NT] appear in the text...

Both will be thrown into the lake of fire.

More misconception, thinking that this is yet to take place...

THIS IS the Lake of Fire, gradyll... where both DEATH and HELL are being destroyed, and LIFE in the RESURRECTION of ALL, shall be their undoing.

Sort of like the old testament hell will be thrown into the ultimate hell (mainly because it is not used anymore).

Really, gradyll?

PROVE with the WORD of GOD, ...what you just said... that there are 2 "HELL's"... an "Old Testament one" ...which YOU CLAIM "is no longer used"... and the "Ultimate one" ... ...Please!

Here's a prophecy: YOU CANNOT and WILL NOT ...PROVE this! ...and you SHALL be SILENT concerning SHOWING US, this "proof"... (end of prophecy )



The Old Testament HELL?

HELL is not even a subject of the Old Testament... nor was it or is it a teaching of the JEWS.

SHEOL to a Jew, is the WORLD of the DEAD... the GRAVE. Where LIFE is ABSENT.

Young's Literal Translation of Revelation 20:14
and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this is the second death;

Always searching for a translation that fits your theology and religion...

THE conclusion of THIS Life, IS the 2nd death....

This IS the 2nd death -- DEATH and HADES WERE cast into the Lake of Fire [PUR]. (which IS this LIFE, as we ARE now, ...IN YHVH -- Acts 17:28 -- and HE IS -- not "will" be -- a CONSUMING FIRE [PUR]-- Heb 12:29)

The 1st death is of the SOUL -- Ez 18:20 -- Gen 2:17

The 2nd death is of the FLESH which has SIN within its members -- Rom 23-24 -- Gen 5:5

DEATH (of any sort) gets NO VICTORY WHATSOEVER -- 1 Cor 15:54

GRACEis MUCH MORE than ANY SIN -- Rom 1:20

CHRIST has reconciled ALL THINGS (not just some) -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19

Haven't you done any examination of what you have been taught? As you busily CUT & PASTE and then --- trip, stumble and wander about in the DARKNESS of those "traditions", you have successfully COPIED, ...gradyll?

secondly, even it were hell, being tossed in. Hell would still exist. It would be like me taking a small microwave and melting it in a huge microwave. I would still have a microwave.

Wow... you call THAT "spiritual" thinking? ...aren't we fortunate that we all lived into the "microwave age", so gradyll could give us this profound understanding...

It both amazes and sorrows me, ...the EXTENSIVE degree of the WORSHIP of HELL, manifest by Christianity. (especially you, gradyll)

HELL, ...which WAS NOT COMMANDED to be taught by CHRIST, (yet is taught by 99% of the churches that claim to come in HIS NAME -- Matt 7:22-23)

Which has NONE of the attributes or desires of YHVH = NO LOVE, NO MERCY, NO COMPASSION, NO GRACE, NO FORGIVENESS... just CARNAL and POINTLESS, ...VENGENT VINDICATION. What a pity.

Seems traditional Christianity (of which YOU are a very busy part) is more about maintaining (for everyone but themselves of course), TORMENT... than witnessing of the JOY that comes into ones experience, by simply KNOWING CHRIST, and HIS PERFECT WORK... and then following the COMMAND HE GAVE: which is to tell the inhabitants of the WORLD of it -- Mark 16:15 -- Matt 28:19-20


The WORD of YHVH is the Creator of ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- which would INCLUDE -- HELL (if indeed it were existent)... and yet NONE of His attibutes and character are found IN IT? Pretty SAD religion you have, of a "god" (HELL) which is certainly NOT, YHVH...

Rather is SELF oriented, and on a program of VENGENCE, just as are CARNAL men of the WORLD, which do NOT FOLLOW the WORD and which IGNORE the clearly noted teaching by JESUS, that EYE - for EYE (which is the VENGENCE of the LAW) no longer IS the "program" -- Matt 5:38-48 -- rather, forgiveness in GRACE is that which IS the "program".

Pity.

PEACE....


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

Can you show one place in scripture where a soul goes to Heaven? This is shown to be nonsense, because if souls go to heaven, what is tghe point of a resurrection? Duality is not taught in scripture and is mere speculation based upon Greek philosophy.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Can you show one place in scripture where a soul goes to Heaven? This is shown to be nonsense, because if souls go to heaven, what is tghe point of a resurrection?

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
Ephesians 3:14-15
​

I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:14

But our citizenship is in heaven.
Philippians 3:20

The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom.
2 Timothy 4:18

Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Hebrews 11:16

This inheritance is kept in heaven for you
1 Peter 1:4

​

Duality is not taught in scripture and is mere speculation based upon Greek philosophy.

By duality I take it you mean body, soul and spirit?

 

[WillieH]

And then there is Deuteronomy 4:24 which says:

For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
​

I noticed this and decided to address this TACTIC of FEAR, engaged by you:

FIRST --- GOD is ALL KNOWING -- 1 John 3:20 -- the fact that BEFOREHAND, He is aware of what shall "take place", the word "JEALOUSY" as it is rendered HUMAN toward HUMAN, is NOT the same as GOD toward HUMAN.

MAN is without knowledge of the future. And JEALOUSY concerning man, is an UNSTABLE emotion. It is often SELF centered, and IRRATIONAL.

NONE of these parameters attached to the JEALOUSY of MAN, are attached to, or affect GOD.

GOD is LOVE. And LOVE ALWAYS has the BEST intentions for its object -- See 1 Cor 13:8-12

JEALOUSY where man is concerned, is due to UNEXPECTED events or manifestations (often MISUNDERSTOOD by him), which serve to instill INSECURITY.

GOD is NEVER "insecure"... nor does anything occur to Him on an UNEXPECTED basis...

Therefore, the word JEALOUSY concerning GOD, is NOT charged or empowered by INSECURITY, UNEXPECTEDNESS or IRRATIONALITY.



SECOND --- You have noted above within YOUR WRITING, the position of JEALOUSY, concerning YHVH God... in an attempt to impose FEAR upon those who observe the WORD, that GOD --- is a "JEALOUS" God...

And propose Him a CONSUMING FIRE -- trying to use the FIRE of GOD as a tactic of FEAR toward the ones which are LOVED by Him... this is not only ridiculous, it is as far from TRUTH as is possible.

The New Testament notes this of GOD as well -- Heb 12:29 -- using The Greek word PUR (as is used also in -- 1 Cor 3:15) -- as the word FIRE...

GOD is UNCHANGING. So if His "consuming FIRE" is corrective and SAVING, in the NT... then it was CORRECTIVE and SAVING in the OT as well...

The FIRE of GOD is a SAVIOR of men -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

The FIRE of God is SPIRITUAL... and is used to CORRECT men, not impose FEAR upon them!

LOVE which IS God -- 1 John 4:8 -- is about CASTING OUT -- FEAR! -- 1 John 4:18 -- Not about the imposing of it upon those whom He LOVES!

JEALOUSY (man to man/woman) often INTENDS within its IRRATIONALITY to raise a hand of FEAR toward the one (supposedly) "LOVED"... such a hand is emergent of an UNSTABLE and INSECURE mind, which as I just noted, is IRRATIONAL as well... GOD NEVER does such a thing... Why should He? He KNOWS ALL that shall occur in the experience of an entity, before said entity is even EXISTENT!

EXAMPLE... If I know the FINAL score of a game, and then watch a replay of it, shall I be SURPRISED by the outcome? Or shall I become ANGRY at the outcome? Of course not.

GOD desires such as -- HOLINESS, LOVE, GRACE, RESPECT, KINDNESS, EQUALITY, SAFETY, PEACE... to be the inherent parameters enjoyed by the OBJECTS of His UNCHANGING -- Mal 3:6 -- LOVE ...NOT... instituting and IMPOSING the TORMENT of FEAR upon them!

Quite the opposite is true... His LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR (during the processing of PERFECTION) and is about instilling SECURITY and TRUST in the hearts of the ones LOVED by Him. (which are ALL!)

ANY BULLY which is greater in stature, can and DOES impose FEAR upon another... but "LOVE" is CERTAINLY not the intent or process of the BULLY... On the contrary... a BULLY just SELFISHLY seeks to "be in charge", and/or "seeks submission" TO HIM, ...by engaging whatever amount of HARDENED FORCE and POWER which instills FEAR... is necessary to accomplish his EVIL dominance of them.

LOVE, in the SOFTENED HOLY charateristic of CARING and PROTECTING... seeks to instill SECURITY, IMPORTANCE, and CONFIDENCE within its object. (which "OBJECT" is the WORLD -- John 3:16-17)

Enough said... the "JEALOUSY" of GODLY LOVE, is NOT IRRATIONAL, nor INSECURE, nor is it ever a "BULLY", instilling FEAR in its objects.

Rather, detests the manifestations of EVIL which are about IMPOSING FEAR in them.


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

and what about Jesus.... if the wages of our sins is death how could his body physically die, come back to life, and die again billions of times for all those he paid our sin debt for?

I don't know

 

[createdtoworship]

... all this blab above, does nothing to change what I have already noted.

"this blab" happened to be 35 verses from God's Holy Word. I would never call God's Word "blab." You are really showing your true colors here.

To dishonor God's Word is to dishonor the Lord Jesus Christ. Psalm 138:2 says that God magnifies His Word above His name.

 

[createdtoworship]

Can you show one place in scripture where a soul goes to Heaven? This is shown to be nonsense, because if souls go to heaven, what is tghe point of a resurrection? Duality is not taught in scripture and is mere speculation based upon Greek philosophy.

Disembodied spirits without the body in the Bible:

“We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:8)

“For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.” (Philippians 1:23, 24)

secondly, the resurrection is for the body to resurrect not the soul. Why did Christ's body rise? Answer this question and you will have your answer.

 

[createdtoworship]

Your problem (TRADITION - Mark 15:6 -- Matt 7:13) expressed in your own words...

PROVE with the WORD that "HADES" has "2 compartments" ...paradise and torments

The GREEK word HADES is the word for GRAVE as noted UNIVERSALLY in the SEPTUAGINT (greek trans of entire Bible) wherever either SHEOL [OT] or HADES [NT] appear in the text...



More misconception, thinking that this is yet to take place...

THIS IS the Lake of Fire, gradyll... where both DEATH and HELL are being destroyed, and LIFE in the RESURRECTION of ALL, shall be their undoing.



Really, gradyll?

PROVE with the WORD of GOD, ...what you just said... that there are 2 "HELL's"... an "Old Testament one" ...which YOU CLAIM "is no longer used"... and the "Ultimate one" ... ...Please!

Here's a prophecy: YOU CANNOT and WILL NOT ...PROVE this! ...and you SHALL be SILENT concerning SHOWING US, this "proof"... (end of prophecy )



The Old Testament HELL?

HELL is not even a subject of the Old Testament... nor was it or is it a teaching of the JEWS.

SHEOL to a Jew, is the WORLD of the DEAD... the GRAVE. Where LIFE is ABSENT.



Always searching for a translation that fits your theology and religion...

THE conclusion of THIS Life, IS the 2nd death....

This IS the 2nd death -- DEATH and HADES WERE cast into the Lake of Fire [PUR]. (which IS this LIFE, as we ARE now, ...IN YHVH -- Acts 17:28 -- and HE IS -- not "will" be -- a CONSUMING FIRE [PUR]-- Heb 12:29)

The 1st death is of the SOUL -- Ez 18:20 -- Gen 2:17

The 2nd death is of the FLESH which has SIN within its members -- Rom 23-24 -- Gen 5:5

DEATH (of any sort) gets NO VICTORY WHATSOEVER -- 1 Cor 15:54

GRACEis MUCH MORE than ANY SIN -- Rom 1:20

CHRIST has reconciled ALL THINGS (not just some) -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19

Haven't you done any examination of what you have been taught? As you busily CUT & PASTE and then --- trip, stumble and wander about in the DARKNESS of those "traditions", you have successfully COPIED, ...gradyll?




Wow... you call THAT "spiritual" thinking? ...aren't we fortunate that we all lived into the "microwave age", so gradyll could give us this profound understanding...

It both amazes and sorrows me, ...the EXTENSIVE degree of the WORSHIP of HELL, manifest by Christianity. (especially you, gradyll)

HELL, ...which WAS NOT COMMANDED to be taught by CHRIST, (yet is taught by 99% of the churches that claim to come in HIS NAME -- Matt 7:22-23)

Which has NONE of the attributes or desires of YHVH = NO LOVE, NO MERCY, NO COMPASSION, NO GRACE, NO FORGIVENESS... just CARNAL and POINTLESS, ...VENGENT VINDICATION. What a pity.

Seems traditional Christianity (of which YOU are a very busy part) is more about maintaining (for everyone but themselves of course), TORMENT... than witnessing of the JOY that comes into ones experience, by simply KNOWING CHRIST, and HIS PERFECT WORK... and then following the COMMAND HE GAVE: which is to tell the inhabitants of the WORLD of it -- Mark 16:15 -- Matt 28:19-20


The WORD of YHVH is the Creator of ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- which would INCLUDE -- HELL (if indeed it were existent)... and yet NONE of His attibutes and character are found IN IT? Pretty SAD religion you have, of a "god" (HELL) which is certainly NOT, YHVH...

Rather is SELF oriented, and on a program of VENGENCE, just as are CARNAL men of the WORLD, which do NOT FOLLOW the WORD and which IGNORE the clearly noted teaching by JESUS, that EYE - for EYE (which is the VENGENCE of the LAW) no longer IS the "program" -- Matt 5:38-48 -- rather, forgiveness in GRACE is that which IS the "program".

Pity.

PEACE....


...willieH

Jesus decended into Hell and preached to the souls of dead men in the compartments of Hades (sheol) old testament.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.(9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

1 Peter 3:19 (KJV) "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

1 Peter 4:5-6 (KJV)
"Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Luke 16:19 (KJV)
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, (21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (23) And in hell, [Greek Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

This passage says it was a certain man. It named a person by name, and this is never done in parables. You can also see that in hell this man could see v23. and feel v24. He also went to hell as soon as he died.

 

[createdtoworship]

Should God annihilate instead of cause millions to suffer?

The fact that these persons are suffering no more justifies annihilating them than it does for a parent to kill a child who is suffering.

secondly, Jesus made an interesting statement in matthew 26:24

"woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

Why say that if all Judas had to serve was a death penalty?

Jesus' strong words suggest something mightier than simply death.

Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why would Jesus say this?

If annihilation were true our souls would die when the body died. There is no reason to differentiate between the soul dying and the body dying because both would be inseparable. Right? Wrong. read mathew 10:28 again. Our bodies are separable from our souls.

 

[LutheranMafia]

When I started searching on the word "heaven" I finally found a gold mine of verses about the afterlife. Here are some more:

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 5:12

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Matthew 6:20

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven...
Matthew 7:21

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 8:11

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:23

Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.
Luke 6:23

However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.
Luke 10:20

Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Luke 12:33

For you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.
Hebrews 10:34

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant...
Hebrews 12:22-24
​

 

[Sophrosyne]

Should God annihilate instead of cause millions to suffer?

The fact that these persons are suffering no more justifies annihilating them than it does for a parent to kill a child who is suffering.

secondly, Jesus made an interesting statement in matthew 26:24

"woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

Why say that if all Judas had to serve was a death penalty?

Jesus' strong words suggest something mightier than simply death.

Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Why would Jesus say this?

If annihilation were true our souls would die when the body died. There is no reason to differentiate between the soul dying and the body dying because both would be inseparable. Right? Wrong. read mathew 10:28 again. Our bodies are separable from our souls.

My issue with annihilation is for the sake of punishment it is no different that putting a suffering pet to sleep via the veterinarian. It basically equatess God as unjust allowing evil people to get away with crimes in this life not caring they tortured etc people. Ironically some of the same people that are against capital punishment are annihilists. The do not believe in killing people for their crimes but demand God to do just that for their sins.

 

[createdtoworship]

Ironically some of the same people that are against capital punishment are annihilists. The do not believe in killing people for their crimes but demand God to do just that for their sins.

true

here is a link to some great materials about dualism

http://pleaseconvinceme.blogspot.com/search/label/hell

also see the index at the left of the page to more resources.

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/mn37856/The_Presence_of_the_Unseen

 

[Mikecpking]

Disembodied spirits without the body in the Bible:

“We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 5:8)

“For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.” (Philippians 1:23, 24)

Speculation on your part. Where is the word 'soul' mentioned in these verses and why don't you look for contecxt with verses like John 6:40, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2?

Neither does 'disembodoed spirits' have any notion of an immaterial essence of a human' meaning either. 'Spirit' (man's) is God'es breath of life in us (Gen 2:7, Eccles 3:18-21, Eccl 12:7)

secondly, the resurrection is for the body to resurrect not the soul. Why did Christ's body rise? Answer this question and you will have your answer.

Christ had a bodily resurrection and he was the first fruit as described by Paul in 1 cor 15.

 

[Mikecpking]

Gradyl,
Just reading through your posts, you confuse the meaning of soul and spirit with definitions other than soul or spirit!

Sophrosyne, you think annihilationism is a way of avoiding judgement. It does not. It simply means after being resurrected at the last day, people who are condemned will be sentenced and thrown into the lake of fire rather than the JW belief is that you simply cease to exist after physical death. (Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29)