Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[Truth_Warrior]

this is something you have to prove, I have proved it with Heman and will to anyone who changes the word of God to suite their own personal agenda.

There are many Trinitarian scholars who freely admit that the Greek text from which the KJV is translated was adjusted in this verse to support the Trinity. The Greek scholar A. T. Robertson, author of the unparalleled work, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research, and the multi-volumed Word Pictures in the New Testament, writes:

At this point [1 John 5:7] the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus, found in no Greek MS. save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, [No.] 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome did not have it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it, and 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order. Some Latin scribe caught up Cyprian’s exegesis and wrote it on the margin of his text, and so it got into the Vulgate and finally into the Textus Receptus by the stupidity of Erasmus.”
​

Robertson shows how this addition entered the text. It was a marginal note. Since all texts were hand-copied, when a scribe, copying a text, accidentally left a word or sentence out of his copy, he would place it in the margin in hopes that the next scribe would copy it back into the text. Unfortunately, scribes occasionally did not make the distinction between what a previous scribe had left out of the last copy and wrote in the margin, and marginal notes that another scribe had written in the margin to help him understand the text. Therefore, some marginal notes got copied into the text as Scripture. Usually these additions are easy to spot because the “new” text will differ from all the other texts. However, there are times when people adore their theology more than the God-breathed original, and they fight for the man-made addition as if it were the original words of God. This has been the case with 1 John 5:7 and 8, and we applaud the honesty of the translators of modern versions who have left it out of their translations.
The famous textual scholar, F. F. Bruce, does not even mention the addition in his commentary on 1 John (The Epistles of John). The International Critical Commentary does not mention it either. The conservative commentator R. C. H. Lenski, in his 12 volume commentary on the New Testament, only mentions that it is proper to leave the addition out. He writes: “The R. V. [Revised Version] is right in not even noting in the margin the interpolation found in the A.V. [KJV].” Henry Alford, author of The Greek Testament, a Greek New Testament with extensive critical notes and commentary, writes:

…OMITTED BY ALL GREEK MANUSCRIPTS previous to the beginning of the 16th century;
ALL the GREEK FATHERS (even when producing texts in support of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity: as e.g., by [abbreviated names of Church “fathers”] Clem Iren Hipp Dion Ath Did Bas Naz Nys Ephih Caes Chr Procl Andr Damasc (EC Thl Euthym);
ALL THE ANCIENT VERSIONS (including the Vulgate (as it came from Jerome, see below) and (though interpolated in the modern editions, the Syriac;
AND MANY LATIN FATHERS (viz. Novat Hil Lucif Ambr Faustin Leo Jer Aug Hesych Bede) [Emphasis his].
​

With the spurious addition gone, it is clear that there is no reference to the Trinity in 1 John 5:7 and 8. The context is speaking of believing that Jesus is the Son of God (v. 5 and 10). There are three that testify that Jesus is the Son of God: the spirit that Jesus received at his baptism, the water of his baptism and the blood that he shed.

Within the context of those verses it appears the added words by men do not fit the context(read the whole context and see how the added words stand out as not fitting what the context is about.

Scripture says, “We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God which He has given about his Son” (v. 9).

This verse is so true!

How often people accept man’s testimony and believe what men say, but do not believe what God says. We need to accept the testimony of God that He has given about His Son, and agree with the testimony of the spirit, the water and the blood, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

[Truth_Warrior]

I beg everyones forgiveness for getting off topic of the thread and won't respond any further regarding 1 John.

There are topics that would be better suited within its own thread.

Sorry Ya'll!!!!

 

[createdtoworship]

I beg everyones forgiveness for getting off topic of the thread and won't respond any further regarding 1 John.

There are topics that would be better suited within its own thread.

Sorry Ya'll!!!!

It's okay I will make my last comment on it as well, but you make common errors regarding 1 John 5:7-9:

I recommend reading Michael Maynards Histories of the verse....

he also states that even though the verse is not found in the early greek manuscripts there were only 5 known manuscripts that date prior to the 7th century. And like I said the arians of the day when they were in rule probably had the verse erased from the few copies of 1 John that existed early on.

"If the Comma was not accidentally removed, it was most likely removed intentionally by heretics. Yale professor of ecclesiastical history, Jaroslav Pelikan, notes that theologians of the past suspected that Arians expunged the Comma:

"Although the weight of the textual evidence against it was seemingly overwhelming, the proof it supplied for the Trinity made an attack on its authenticity seem to be an attack on the dogma. Therefore the Reformed theologian Johann Heinrich Heidegger, citing Jerome, and the Lutheran theologians Johann Gerhard and Johann Andreas Quenstedt argued that the real corruption of the Greek text had been its "erasure by the fraud of the Arians," not its addition by orthodox fathers. In a lengthy disputation on the question, Gerhard marshaled the evidence of manuscripts and versions in an effort to show this, and in his systematic theology he reaffirmed its authenticity." (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Christian Tradition: Reformation of Church Dogma (1300-1700) at 346)

It is reasonable to believe that Arians deleted the Comma because there is evidence that Arians deleted other portions of Scripture."

above quotes from

1 John 5:7 And these Three are One

 

[createdtoworship]

like Newton, whom you quoted, or like John Thomas, Robert Roberts, David Joris, Thomas Hobbes, and John Epps, rather than addressing the scriptures they quote. Oops my bad!
Eph 6:12 οτι ουκ εστιν ημιν η παλη προς αιμα και σαρκα αλλα προς τας αρχας προς τας εξουσιας προς τους κοσμοκρατορας του σκοτους τουτου προς τα πνευματικα της πονηριας εν τοις επουρανιοις

Thank you for pointing out my error. Here is the way it should then be translated: Thayer 1a) the term is transferred to the Christian's struggle with the power of evil

Eph 6:12 Eph 6:12 It is not that we struggle1 against flesh and blood, but against magistracy2, against powers, against the rulers of this obscurity3, against spiritual guile4 in high places.

1) G3823 πάλη struggle, battle, grapple, bout, fight, combat, tussle, conflict, wrestle, wrestling, match, strife,

2) G746 αρχή magistracy, principles, doctrine, tenet, precepts, beginning, start, origination

3) G4655 σκότος obscurity, gloom, darkness

4) G4189 πονηριας guile, craft; deceitful cunning; artifice; duplicity; wile; deceit; treachery slyness

The NIV and NASB says struggle, but I don't know where you get the words "Obscurity and Spiritual Guile"

Thats ADDING TO THE WORD OF GOD

The Jehovah's witness Bible uses the same technique that you are using in your translation.

This is a clip from CARM.org http://carm.org/heb-16-let-angels-do-obeisance-him

"In the Greek, the word is "proskuneo." It means, worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, obeisance. Obeisance means, "bending the head or body or knee as a sign of reverence or submission or shame." While it is certainly true that people would bow down before Jesus in the Bible, the English word "obeisance" does not carry sufficiently the act of worship due Him because of His divine nature. Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God in flesh, they cannot have their Bible teach that Jesus was worshipped. Therefore, every single time that the word "proskuneo" is used in reference to Christ, it is translated as "obeisance" and never as worship. For proof of this, please see the CARM article The New World Translation and "Proskuneo" (worship) which has a chart of every occurrence of the Greek word and how the New World Translation renders it.
The New World Translation and "Proskuneo" (worship) | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only, yet He willingly receives worship in Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38. Just check any Bible other than the New World Translation and you can plainly see this."

The HEMAN translation does the same with Eph 6:12, Mark 5:29, Luke 7:21

See Post 90 for the HEMAN translation.

 

[Truth_Warrior]

It's okay I will make my last comment on it as well, but you make common errors regarding 1 John 5:7-9:

I recommend reading Michael Maynards Histories of the verse....

he also states that even though the verse is not found in the early greek manuscripts there were only 5 known manuscripts that date prior to the 7th century. And like I said the arians of the day when they were in rule probably had the verse erased from the few copies of 1 John that existed early on.

"If the Comma was not accidentally removed, it was most likely removed intentionally by heretics. Yale professor of ecclesiastical history, Jaroslav Pelikan, notes that theologians of the past suspected that Arians expunged the Comma:

"Although the weight of the textual evidence against it was seemingly overwhelming, the proof it supplied for the Trinity made an attack on its authenticity seem to be an attack on the dogma. Therefore the Reformed theologian Johann Heinrich Heidegger, citing Jerome, and the Lutheran theologians Johann Gerhard and Johann Andreas Quenstedt argued that the real corruption of the Greek text had been its "erasure by the fraud of the Arians," not its addition by orthodox fathers. In a lengthy disputation on the question, Gerhard marshaled the evidence of manuscripts and versions in an effort to show this, and in his systematic theology he reaffirmed its authenticity." (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Christian Tradition: Reformation of Church Dogma (1300-1700) at 346)

It is reasonable to believe that Arians deleted the Comma because there is evidence that Arians deleted other portions of Scripture."

above quotes from

1 John 5:7 And these Three are One

Wow.......you buy that "probably" Arians deleted it.

Amazing that you would even post that stuff.(Iwould be too embarassed)


but hey without proof I guess thats all you get is "probably"

 

[createdtoworship]

Wow.......you buy that "probably" Arians deleted it.

this coming from one who probably doesn't believe in the Trinity? No wonder.

Amazing that you would even post that stuff.(Iwould be too embarassed)

I would say the same thing if I didn't have anything useful to say to counter the argument.

but hey without proof I guess that's all you get is "probably"

How is this for proof. How is it that people are found quoting a verse that doesn't exist in any manuscripts according to you?


1 John 5:7-9 (trinity verse) in early christian writings This list is from (study to answer.net) Defense of the Johannine Comma

Priscillian (380 AD) bishop of Avilain in Liber Apologeticus: (This quote as given by A.E. Brooke from Schepps- Vienna Corpus, xviii) "As John says "and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus.""

and cyprian (one who quoted copiously and textually in the 3rd Century)

"The Lord says "I and the Father are one" and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. "And these three are one.""


168 A.D. Theophilus used the word "trinity" in his letter to Autolycus. Written in Greek. Theophilus became bishop of Antioch.

177 A.D. A writing in Greek---Anti-Nicene Fathers Apologia of Athenagoras presented to Roman emperors. "Who, then, would not be ashamed to hear men speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their distinction in order."

215 A.D. (25:1; CC2, 1195) Tertullian. Adversus Praxean per RB "And so the connection of the Father, and the Son, and of the Paraclete makes three cohering entities, one cohering from the other, which three are one entity" refers to the unity of their substance, not to the oneness of their number.

250 A.D. The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translation of the Writings of the Church Fathers down to A.D. 325 CYPRIAN. De catholicae ecclesiae unitate. (CSEL 3:215) The LORD says "I and the Father are one" and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. "And these three are one." NOTE: Cyprian is regarded as one "who quotes copiously and textually." Further, the interpolation "In Christo Jesu" does not yet appear. note: Cyprian also quoted Acts 8:37

385 A.D. GREGORY OF NAZANZIUS Theological Orations, His fifth oration was "On the Holy Spirit"

390A.D. JEROME prologue to the Canonical Epistles "si ab interpretibus fideliter in latinum eloquium verterentur nec ambiguitatem legentibus facerent nec trinitatis unitate in prima joannis epistola positum legimus, in qua etiam, trium tantummodo vocabula hoc est aquae, sanguinis et spiritus in ipsa sua editione ponentes et patris verbique ac aspiritus testimoninum omittentes, in quo maxime et fides catholica roboratur, et patris et filii et spirtus sancti una divinitatis substantia comprobatur." note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

450 A.D. Anchor Bible; Epistle of John, 782 Contra Varimadum 1.5 (CC90,20-21) "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one."

450 A.D. De divinis Scripturis suie Speculum
(A collection of statements and precepts drawn from the Old Latin Bible (both Old and New Testaments). It has been attributed to Augustine, but this is not likely. Aland dates it c. 427. Except in editions associated with the Alands, it is usually cited as m of the Old Latin. In Paul at least, the text seems to be generally more primitive than the European Latin of the bilingual uncials. In the Catholics, it has many links with the text of Priscillian.)
Latin MS, also known as "m" "and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one."note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

484 A.D. Victor of Vita Historia persecutionis Africanae prov. 2.82[3.11], CSEL7, 60

485 A.D. Victor Vitensis Historia persecutionis Africanae Provinciae 3.11 in PL58, 227C per RB "there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."

500 A.D. Beuron 64 known as "r". (Sometimes labeled CODEX MONACENSIS) CODEX FREISINGENSIS "and the three are one which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS
(Considered, after Amiatinus, the best Vulgate manuscript. Copied for and corrected by Victor of Capua. Italian text. The Gospels are in the form of a harmony (probably based on an Old Latin original, and with scattered Old Latin
readings). Includes the Epistle to the Laodiceans.)
Responsio contra Arianos (Ad 10, CC 91) RB "there are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. And the three are one being."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS Contra Fabianum (frag. 21.4: CC 91A, 797) "There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Son and the Spirit. And the three are one being."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS De Trinitate(1.4.1; CC91A 636), per RB "There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one being."
pre 550 A.D. JEROME prologue to the Catholic Epistles. "Preserved in the Codex Fuldensis (PL 29, 827-31)." per RB. Jerome writes in his prologue that the Comma (1John5:7-8) is genuine but has been omitted by unfaithful translators.

570 A.D. CASSIODORUS Complexionn. in Epistt. Paulinn. "Moreover, in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one God."

583 A.D. CASSIODORUS In Epistolam S. Joannis ad Parthos. (10.5.1; PL 70, 1373A) employs "Son" in place of "Word." NOTE: Cassiodorus cited the Comma in his commentary.

636 A.D. ISIDORE of SEVILLE Testimonia divinae Scripturae 2[PL, 83, 1203C] per RB. "And there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and the three are one."

650 A.D. The Leon Palimpsest, also known as "Legionensis" or Beuron 67 CODEX PAL LEGIONENSIS "and there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."

700 A.D. JAQUB of EDESSA On the Holy Eucharistic Mysteries, Syriac document "The soul and the body and the mind which are sanctified through three holy things; through water and blood and Spirit, and through the Father and the Son and the Spirit."

735 A.D. The year of the decease of Venerable Bede manuscript E (also known as Basiliensis), Greek. Located: Basel, Switzerland. Université Bibliothèque note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

750 A.D. harl 2 (also known as "z2" or Harleianus) Latin MS, Beuron 65, Latin Vulgate Bible all the Epistles (that to the Colossians following 2 Thessalonians and 1 John 5 - Jude crowded onto one leaf.)

850 A.D. The Ulmensis manuscript or "U" "Caroline minuscule" hand. Includes Laodiceans. Now in the British Museum. "Likewise, in heaven there are three, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and the three are one."

913 - 923 A.D. "leon 1" or Lemovicensis (dated it in the time of Ordogno II (913-923) Latin MS of the Cathedral of Leon "is a specimen of the Visigoth miniscule, and contains 1 John 5:7 - 8 in varied form."

930 A.D. Church of S. Isidore in Leon Latin MS designated as "leon 2" 1 John 5:7 - 8 is found only in the margin.

988 A.D. CODEX TOLETANUS or "T" Latin MS Note: also contains Acts 8:37a, 8:37 b, 9:5, 9:6 and 1 John 5:7.
Along with cav, the leading representative of the Spanish text. Among the earliest witnesses for "1 John 5:7-8," which it possesses in modified form. Written in a Visigothic hand, it was not new when it was given to the see of Seville in 988.

1120 A.D. An exposition of the Apostle's Creed used by the Waldenses and Albigensians "There are three that bear witness in heaven; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one."

1150 A.D. CODEX DEMIDOVIANUS Latin MS Note: contained also Acts 8:37 and 1 John 5:7 - 8.

1150 A.D. CODEX COLBERTINUS written in Languedoc, Old Latin Same as the Old Latin c of the Gospels. Often cited as Old Latin elsewhere, but the text is vulgate. The two sections are separately bound and in different hands. The Vulgate portion of the text is considered to be French.

1215 A.D. Acts of the Lateran Council Latin document "because there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."

1250 A.D. CODEX PERPINIANUS or Latin p or Beuron 54 Latin "p"
(Old Latin in 1:1-13:6, 28:16-end. The text is said to be similar to the fourth century writer Gregory of Elvira, and is thought to have been written in northern Spain or southern France. ) "And there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one." Note: also contains Acts 8:37
Defense of the Johannine Comma

 

[Truth_Warrior]

this coming from one who probably doesn't believe in the Trinity? No wonder.

I would say the same thing if I didn't have anything useful to say to counter the argument.


How is this for proof. How is it that people are found quoting a verse that doesn't exist in any manuscripts according to you?


1 John 5:7-9 (trinity verse) in early christian writings This list is from (study to answer.net) Defense of the Johannine Comma

Priscillian (380 AD) bishop of Avilain in Liber Apologeticus: (This quote as given by A.E. Brooke from Schepps- Vienna Corpus, xviii) "As John says "and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus.""

and cyprian (one who quoted copiously and textually in the 3rd Century)

"The Lord says "I and the Father are one" and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. "And these three are one.""


168 A.D. Theophilus used the word "trinity" in his letter to Autolycus. Written in Greek. Theophilus became bishop of Antioch.

177 A.D. A writing in Greek---Anti-Nicene Fathers Apologia of Athenagoras presented to Roman emperors. "Who, then, would not be ashamed to hear men speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their distinction in order."

215 A.D. (25:1; CC2, 1195) Tertullian. Adversus Praxean per RB "And so the connection of the Father, and the Son, and of the Paraclete makes three cohering entities, one cohering from the other, which three are one entity" refers to the unity of their substance, not to the oneness of their number.

250 A.D. The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translation of the Writings of the Church Fathers down to A.D. 325 CYPRIAN. De catholicae ecclesiae unitate. (CSEL 3:215) The LORD says "I and the Father are one" and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. "And these three are one." NOTE: Cyprian is regarded as one "who quotes copiously and textually." Further, the interpolation "In Christo Jesu" does not yet appear. note: Cyprian also quoted Acts 8:37

385 A.D. GREGORY OF NAZANZIUS Theological Orations, His fifth oration was "On the Holy Spirit"

390A.D. JEROME prologue to the Canonical Epistles "si ab interpretibus fideliter in latinum eloquium verterentur nec ambiguitatem legentibus facerent nec trinitatis unitate in prima joannis epistola positum legimus, in qua etiam, trium tantummodo vocabula hoc est aquae, sanguinis et spiritus in ipsa sua editione ponentes et patris verbique ac aspiritus testimoninum omittentes, in quo maxime et fides catholica roboratur, et patris et filii et spirtus sancti una divinitatis substantia comprobatur." note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

450 A.D. Anchor Bible; Epistle of John, 782 Contra Varimadum 1.5 (CC90,20-21) "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one."

450 A.D. De divinis Scripturis suie Speculum
(A collection of statements and precepts drawn from the Old Latin Bible (both Old and New Testaments). It has been attributed to Augustine, but this is not likely. Aland dates it c. 427. Except in editions associated with the Alands, it is usually cited as m of the Old Latin. In Paul at least, the text seems to be generally more primitive than the European Latin of the bilingual uncials. In the Catholics, it has many links with the text of Priscillian.)
Latin MS, also known as "m" "and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one."note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

484 A.D. Victor of Vita Historia persecutionis Africanae prov. 2.82[3.11], CSEL7, 60

485 A.D. Victor Vitensis Historia persecutionis Africanae Provinciae 3.11 in PL58, 227C per RB "there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."

500 A.D. Beuron 64 known as "r". (Sometimes labeled CODEX MONACENSIS) CODEX FREISINGENSIS "and the three are one which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS
(Considered, after Amiatinus, the best Vulgate manuscript. Copied for and corrected by Victor of Capua. Italian text. The Gospels are in the form of a harmony (probably based on an Old Latin original, and with scattered Old Latin
readings). Includes the Epistle to the Laodiceans.)
Responsio contra Arianos (Ad 10, CC 91) RB "there are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. And the three are one being."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS Contra Fabianum (frag. 21.4: CC 91A, 797) "There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Son and the Spirit. And the three are one being."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS De Trinitate(1.4.1; CC91A 636), per RB "There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one being."
pre 550 A.D. JEROME prologue to the Catholic Epistles. "Preserved in the Codex Fuldensis (PL 29, 827-31)." per RB. Jerome writes in his prologue that the Comma (1John5:7-8) is genuine but has been omitted by unfaithful translators.

570 A.D. CASSIODORUS Complexionn. in Epistt. Paulinn. "Moreover, in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one God."

583 A.D. CASSIODORUS In Epistolam S. Joannis ad Parthos. (10.5.1; PL 70, 1373A) employs "Son" in place of "Word." NOTE: Cassiodorus cited the Comma in his commentary.

636 A.D. ISIDORE of SEVILLE Testimonia divinae Scripturae 2[PL, 83, 1203C] per RB. "And there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and the three are one."

650 A.D. The Leon Palimpsest, also known as "Legionensis" or Beuron 67 CODEX PAL LEGIONENSIS "and there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."

700 A.D. JAQUB of EDESSA On the Holy Eucharistic Mysteries, Syriac document "The soul and the body and the mind which are sanctified through three holy things; through water and blood and Spirit, and through the Father and the Son and the Spirit."

735 A.D. The year of the decease of Venerable Bede manuscript E (also known as Basiliensis), Greek. Located: Basel, Switzerland. Université Bibliothèque note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

750 A.D. harl 2 (also known as "z2" or Harleianus) Latin MS, Beuron 65, Latin Vulgate Bible all the Epistles (that to the Colossians following 2 Thessalonians and 1 John 5 - Jude crowded onto one leaf.)

850 A.D. The Ulmensis manuscript or "U" "Caroline minuscule" hand. Includes Laodiceans. Now in the British Museum. "Likewise, in heaven there are three, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and the three are one."

913 - 923 A.D. "leon 1" or Lemovicensis (dated it in the time of Ordogno II (913-923) Latin MS of the Cathedral of Leon "is a specimen of the Visigoth miniscule, and contains 1 John 5:7 - 8 in varied form."

930 A.D. Church of S. Isidore in Leon Latin MS designated as "leon 2" 1 John 5:7 - 8 is found only in the margin.

988 A.D. CODEX TOLETANUS or "T" Latin MS Note: also contains Acts 8:37a, 8:37 b, 9:5, 9:6 and 1 John 5:7.
Along with cav, the leading representative of the Spanish text. Among the earliest witnesses for "1 John 5:7-8," which it possesses in modified form. Written in a Visigothic hand, it was not new when it was given to the see of Seville in 988.

1120 A.D. An exposition of the Apostle's Creed used by the Waldenses and Albigensians "There are three that bear witness in heaven; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one."

1150 A.D. CODEX DEMIDOVIANUS Latin MS Note: contained also Acts 8:37 and 1 John 5:7 - 8.

1150 A.D. CODEX COLBERTINUS written in Languedoc, Old Latin Same as the Old Latin c of the Gospels. Often cited as Old Latin elsewhere, but the text is vulgate. The two sections are separately bound and in different hands. The Vulgate portion of the text is considered to be French.

1215 A.D. Acts of the Lateran Council Latin document "because there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."

1250 A.D. CODEX PERPINIANUS or Latin p or Beuron 54 Latin "p"
(Old Latin in 1:1-13:6, 28:16-end. The text is said to be similar to the fourth century writer Gregory of Elvira, and is thought to have been written in northern Spain or southern France. ) "And there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one." Note: also contains Acts 8:37
Defense of the Johannine Comma

read the website you quoted and not seeing what you see exept desperation in order to keep the text as scripture.

I think you were better off with "Arians probably deleted it"

Nuff said, I will agree that you think it should be added even though many versions don't add it.

To each his own I guess.

 

[he-man]

The NIV and NASB says struggle, but I don't know where you get the words "Obscurity and Spiritual Guile"

Eph 6:12 It is not that we struggle1 against flesh and blood, but against magistracy2, against powers, against the world rulers of this obscurity3, against spiritual guile4 in high places.

3) G4655 σκότος obscurity, gloom, darkness

4) G4189 πονηριας guile, craft; deceitful cunning; artifice; duplicity; wile; deceit; treachery slyness

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Here it refers to the struggle or combat which the Christian has to maintain - the Christian warfare.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,


In high places - Εν τοις επουρανιοις· In the most sublime stations. But who are these of whom the apostle speaks? Schoettgen contends that the rabbis and Jewish rulers are intended.

By the spiritual wickedness in heavenly places, he thinks false teachers, who endeavored to corrupt Christianity, are meant; such as those mentioned by St. John, 1 John 2:19 : They went out from us, but they were not of us, etc.

And he thinks the meaning may be extended to all corrupters of Christianity in all succeeding ages. He shows also that the Jews called their own city שר של עולם sar shel olam, κοσμοκρατωρ, the rulers of the world; and proves that David's words, Psalm 2:2, The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, are applied by the apostles, Acts 4:26, to the Jewish rulers, αρχοντες, who persecuted Peter and John for preaching Christ crucified.

INT: against the world's rulers of the darkness

BIB: πρὸς τοὺς κοσμοκράτορας τοῦ σκότους

Weymouth New Testament
For ours is not a conflict with mere flesh and blood, but with the despotisms, the empires, the forces that control and govern this dark world--the spiritual hosts of evil arrayed against us in the heavenly warfare.

Darby Bible Translation
because our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but against principalities, against authorities, against the universal lords of this darkness, against spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies.

Bible in Basic English
For our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against authorities and powers, against the world-rulers of this dark night, against the spirits of evil in the heavens.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This is not a wrestling match against a human opponent. We are wrestling with rulers, authorities, the powers who govern this world of darkness, and spiritual forces that control evil in the heavenly world.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

 

[createdtoworship]

read the website you quoted and not seeing what you see exept desperation in order to keep the text as scripture.

I think you were better off with "Arians probably deleted it"

Nuff said, I will agree that you think it should be added even though many versions don't add it.

To each his own I guess.

well I think you are desperately in need of theological support in this one. I don't think you have very many sources to site other than a few.
and I did seem to post the wrong website, I meant to post this one

1john57

 

[createdtoworship]

Eph 6:12 It is not that we struggle1 against flesh and blood, but against magistracy2, against powers, against the world rulers of this obscurity3, against spiritual guile4 in high places.

3) G4655 σκότος obscurity, gloom, darkness

4) G4189 πονηριας guile, craft; deceitful cunning; artifice; duplicity; wile; deceit; treachery slyness

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Here it refers to the struggle or combat which the Christian has to maintain - the Christian warfare.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,


In high places - Εν τοις επουρανιοις· In the most sublime stations. But who are these of whom the apostle speaks? Schoettgen contends that the rabbis and Jewish rulers are intended.

By the spiritual wickedness in heavenly places, he thinks false teachers, who endeavored to corrupt Christianity, are meant; such as those mentioned by St. John, 1 John 2:19 : They went out from us, but they were not of us, etc.

And he thinks the meaning may be extended to all corrupters of Christianity in all succeeding ages. He shows also that the Jews called their own city שר של עולם sar shel olam, κοσμοκρατωρ, the rulers of the world; and proves that David's words, Psalm 2:2, The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, are applied by the apostles, Acts 4:26, to the Jewish rulers, αρχοντες, who persecuted Peter and John for preaching Christ crucified.

INT: against the world's rulers of the darkness

BIB: πρὸς τοὺς κοσμοκράτορας τοῦ σκότους

Weymouth New Testament
For ours is not a conflict with mere flesh and blood, but with the despotisms, the empires, the forces that control and govern this dark world--the spiritual hosts of evil arrayed against us in the heavenly warfare.

Darby Bible Translation
because our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but against principalities, against authorities, against the universal lords of this darkness, against spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies.

Bible in Basic English
For our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against authorities and powers, against the world-rulers of this dark night, against the spirits of evil in the heavens.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This is not a wrestling match against a human opponent. We are wrestling with rulers, authorities, the powers who govern this world of darkness, and spiritual forces that control evil in the heavenly world.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Well as I proved in my study the third word in Ephesians 6:12 might as well be VIBRATE. Secondly, none of your translations you quote match up with your own made up version of Ephesians 6:12 (not sure why you quote them.) Thirdly I was curious about your translation of "worship" from the Greek, do you believe Christ received "worship?" Or just "obeisance?" Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only, yet He willingly receives worship in Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38. What is your opinion of these verses? In Thayers Proskuneo can mean both "worship" and "do obeisance?"

 

[Truth_Warrior]

well I think you are desperately in need of theological support in this one. I don't think you have very many sources to site other than a few.
and I did seem to post the wrong website, I meant to post this one

1john57

EVERY version I have on Esword exept the KJV either place the words added by man in italics or don't even show the words at all and thats 18 of them I think.(most don't even place them in the text).


Pretty compelling ,I guess the translators of more then 90% of translations thought my view wasn't so desperate of theological support.

Whether anyone believes in the trinity or not does not matter,what matters is that we don't add words to God Word to shape a doctrine.

God had it right and man wants to play God.
Psa_138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

For God to magnify his word above his name tells me its important to allow it to speak,I guess even the trinitarian theologians that translated it had that in mind despite what a few websites might think( a little good advice for you,don't trust every website you see just because you agree with its premise,)

If God magnified his Word above his Name,we can at the very least magnify Gods Word above any doctrine or creed written by men.

nuff said for real this time.

 

[he-man]

Well as I proved in my study the third word in Ephesians 6:12 might as well be VIBRATE. Secondly, none of your translations you quote match up with your own made up version of Ephesians 6:12 (not sure why you quote them.)

That, very simply put, gives you the many different ways that Eph is translated. The exegesis is up to the translator.

2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

The meaning then, is to search all things and to use the scriptures to find the answers.

How much do you want to know? Research the actual Greek translations and use a Lexicon.

Compare the Oldest manuscripts with the newest and decide for yourself who is telling the "Truth".
"Inerrancy and New Testament Exegesis" by R. T. France

How?
Read the Bible daily, start with a verse from Genesis, one from Psalms, one from the NT starting at Matthew.
Reading daily, you will see the pattern of overlaping verses, which confirm the others.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

In high places - Εν τοις επουρανιοις· In the most sublime stations. But who are these of whom the apostle speaks? Schoettgen contends that the rabbis and Jewish rulers are intended.

By the spiritual wickedness in heavenly places, he thinks false teachers, who endeavored to corrupt Christianity, are meant; such as those mentioned by St. John, 1 John 2:19 : They went out from us, but they were not of us, etc.

And he thinks the meaning may be extended to all corrupters of Christianity in all succeeding ages. He shows also that the Jews called their own city שר של עולם sar shel olam, κοσμοκρατωρ, the rulers of the world; and proves that David's words,

Psalm 2:2, The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, are applied by the apostles, Acts 4:26, to the Jewish rulers, αρχοντες, who persecuted Peter and John for preaching Christ crucified.

Thirdly I was curious about your translation of "worship" from the Greek, do you believe Christ received "worship?" Or just "obeisance?" Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only, yet He willingly receives worship in Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and

-38. What is your opinion of these verses? In Thayers Proskuneo can mean both "worship" and "do obeisance?"

Mat 4:10 is προσκυνησεις, meaning [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]genuflect earlier (Μ&#917 as genuflection: from eccles. L. genuflectere, from L. genu ‘knee’ plus flectere ‘to bend’.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G4352 προσκύνεω genuflection, obeisance, homage, bow; courtesy[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Matt. 2:2 προσκυνησαι; 2:11 προσεκυνησαν; 14:33 προσεκυνησαν;
28:9 προσεκυνησαν [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]προσκύνημα compare [G5462, G1120][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

So, how is it that we get so many denominations?
Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

 

[createdtoworship]

EVERY version I have on Esword exept the KJV either place the words added by man in italics or don't even show the words at all and thats 18 of them I think.(most don't even place them in the text).


Pretty compelling ,I guess the translators of more then 90% of translations thought my view wasn't so desperate of theological support.

Whether anyone believes in the trinity or not does not matter,what matters is that we don't add words to God Word to shape a doctrine.

God had it right and man wants to play God.
Psa_138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

For God to magnify his word above his name tells me its important to allow it to speak,I guess even the trinitarian theologians that translated it had that in mind despite what a few websites might think( a little good advice for you,don't trust every website you see just because you agree with its premise,)

If God magnified his Word above his Name,we can at the very least magnify Gods Word above any doctrine or creed written by men.

nuff said for real this time.

study the accuracy of the byzantine text types and you will see what I mean, they are the most accurate.

 

[createdtoworship]

That, very simply put, gives you the many different ways that Eph is translated. The exegesis is up to the translator.

2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

The meaning then, is to search all things and to use the scriptures to find the answers.

How much do you want to know? Research the actual Greek translations and use a Lexicon.

Compare the Oldest manuscripts with the newest and decide for yourself who is telling the "Truth".
"Inerrancy and New Testament Exegesis" by R. T. France

How?
Read the Bible daily, start with a verse from Genesis, one from Psalms, one from the NT starting at Matthew.
Reading daily, you will see the pattern of overlaping verses, which confirm the others.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

In high places - Εν τοις επουρανιοις· In the most sublime stations. But who are these of whom the apostle speaks? Schoettgen contends that the rabbis and Jewish rulers are intended.

By the spiritual wickedness in heavenly places, he thinks false teachers, who endeavored to corrupt Christianity, are meant; such as those mentioned by St. John, 1 John 2:19 : They went out from us, but they were not of us, etc.

And he thinks the meaning may be extended to all corrupters of Christianity in all succeeding ages. He shows also that the Jews called their own city שר של עולם sar shel olam, κοσμοκρατωρ, the rulers of the world; and proves that David's words,

Psalm 2:2, The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, are applied by the apostles, Acts 4:26, to the Jewish rulers, αρχοντες, who persecuted Peter and John for preaching Christ crucified.

Thirdly I was curious about your translation of "worship" from the Greek, do you believe Christ received "worship?" Or just "obeisance?" Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only, yet He willingly receives worship in Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and Mat 4:10 is προσκυνησεις, meaning [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]genuflect earlier (Μ&#917 as genuflection: from eccles. L. genuflectere, from L. genu ‘knee’ plus flectere ‘to bend’.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G4352 προσκύνεω genuflection, obeisance, homage, bow; courtesy[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Matt. 2:2 προσκυνησαι; 2:11 προσεκυνησαν; 14:33 προσεκυνησαν;
28:9 προσεκυνησαν [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]προσκύνημα compare [G5462, G1120][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

So, how is it that we get so many denominations?
Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

If you have the understanding of a translator in your eyes then translate this: Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only, yet He willingly receives worship in Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38. What is your opinion of these verses? In Thayers Proskuneo can mean both "worship" and "do obeisance?" Do you believe people worshiped Jesus or just did obeisance?

 

[he-man]

If you have the understanding of a translator in your eyes then translate this: Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only, yet He willingly receives worship in Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38. What is your opinion of these verses? In Thayers Proskuneo can mean both "worship" and "do obeisance?" Do you believe people worshiped Jesus or just did obeisance?[/size]
Originally Posted by gradyll

-38. What is your opinion of these verses? In Thayers Proskuneo can mean both "worship" and "do obeisance?"​

​

Lol I answered that and you messed up the response by putting it under your quote!
​

Mat 4:10 is προσκυνησεις, meaning [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]genuflect earlier (Μ&#917 as genuflection: from eccles. L. genuflectere, from L. genu ‘knee’ plus flectere ‘to bend’.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G4352 προσκύνεω genuflection, obeisance, homage, bow; courtesy[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Matt. 2:2 προσκυνησαι; ABP_GRK(i)
2 G3004 λέγοντες G4226 που G1510.2.3 εστίν G3588 ο G5088 τεχθείς G935 βασιλεύς G3588 των G* Ιουδαίων G1492 είδομεν γαρ G1063 G1473 αυτού G3588 τον G792 αστέρα G1722 εν G3588 τη G395 ανατολή G2532 και G2064 ήλθομεν G4352 προσκυνήσαι G1473 αυτώ2:11 προσεκυνησαν; 14:33 προσεκυνησαν;
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]28:9 προσεκυνησαν [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]προσκύνημα compare [G5462, G1120][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Matthew 4:10 (Tischendorf)

10 G5119 ADV τότε G3004 V-PAI-3S λέγει G846 P-DSM αὐτῷ G3588 T-NSM ὁ G2424 N-NSM Ἰησοῦς· G5217 V-PAM-2S ὕπαγε, G4567 N-VSM σατανᾶ· G1125 V-RPI-3S γέγραπται G1063 CONJ γάρ, G2962 N-ASM κύριον G3588 T-ASM τὸν G2316 N-ASM θεόν G4771 P-2GS σου G4352 V-FAI-2S προσκυνήσεις G2532 CONJ καὶ G846 P-DSM αὐτῷ G3441 A-DSM μόνῳ G3000 V-FAI-2S λατρεύσεις
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Mr 5:6 And seeing Jesus from afar, he ran and kneeling down before him, G4352[/FONT]

Mark 5:6 (Tischendorf)

6 G2532 CONJ καὶ G3708 V-2AAP-NSM ἰδὼν G3588 T-ASM τὸν G2424 N-ASM Ἰησοῦν G575 PREP ἀπὸ G3113 ADV μακρόθεν G5143 V-2AAI-3S ἔδραμεν G2532 CONJ καὶ G4352 V-AAI-3S προσεκύνησεν G846 P-DSM αὐτῷ
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And here in Mark 15:19 read the content and then apply the meanings.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
15:19 And they beat his head with a cane, and spit upon him, and utterly prostrate <5087>they did obeisance <G4352> to him.
Mark 15:19 (Tischendorf)

19 G2532 CONJ &#954;&#945;&#8054; G5180 V-IAI-3P &#7956;&#964;&#965;&#960;&#964;&#959;&#957; G846 P-GSM &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; G3588 T-ASF &#964;&#8052;&#957; G2776 N-ASF &#954;&#949;&#966;&#945;&#955;&#8052;&#957; G2563 N-DSM &#954;&#945;&#955;&#8049;&#956;&#8179; G2532 CONJ &#954;&#945;&#8054; G1716 V-IAI-3P &#7952;&#957;&#8051;&#960;&#964;&#965;&#959;&#957; G846 P-DSM &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8183;, G2532 CONJ &#954;&#945;&#8054; G5087 V-PAP-NPM &#964;&#953;&#952;&#8051;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962; G3588 T-APN &#964;&#8048; G1119 N-APN &#947;&#8057;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#945; G4352 V-IAI-3P &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#949;&#954;&#8059;&#957;&#959;&#965;&#957; G846 P-DSM &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8183;

[/FONT][/FONT]2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

So, how is it that we get so many denominations?
Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

That, very simply put, gives you the many different ways that Eph is translated. The exegesis is up to the translator.

2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

The meaning then, is to search all things and to use the scriptures to find the answers.

How much do you want to know? Research the actual Greek translations and use a Lexicon.

Compare the Oldest manuscripts with the newest and decide for yourself who is telling the "Truth".
"Inerrancy and New Testament Exegesis" by R. T. France

How?
Read the Bible daily, start with a verse from Genesis, one from Psalms, one from the NT starting at Matthew.
Reading daily, you will see the pattern of overlaping verses, which confirm the others.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

In high places - &#917;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#949;&#960;&#959;&#965;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#953;&#962;&#903; In the most sublime stations. But who are these of whom the apostle speaks? Schoettgen contends that the rabbis and Jewish rulers are intended.

By the spiritual wickedness in heavenly places, he thinks false teachers, who endeavored to corrupt Christianity, are meant; such as those mentioned by St. John, 1 John 2:19 : They went out from us, but they were not of us, etc.

And he thinks the meaning may be extended to all corrupters of Christianity in all succeeding ages. He shows also that the Jews called their own city &#1513;&#1512; &#1513;&#1500; &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1501; sar shel olam, &#954;&#959;&#963;&#956;&#959;&#954;&#961;&#945;&#964;&#969;&#961;, the rulers of the world; and proves that David's words,

Psalm 2:2, The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, are applied by the apostles, Acts 4:26, to the Jewish rulers, &#945;&#961;&#967;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962;, who persecuted Peter and John for preaching Christ crucified.

 

[WillieH]

YOU MUST HAVE EARS TO HEAR TO UNDERSTAND TRUE DOCTRINE

Matthew 13:40-43\
New King James Version (NKJV)
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

I spent 25 years in the "Orthodox" system, and am quite well aware of ALL of its ...teachings (which btw... is the defintion of the word "doctrine")...

You are quite right that one must "have ears to HEAR to UNDERSTAND TRUE doctrine"... and it is my observation of your present position that unfortunately, you do not possess those EARS to HEAR... ...nor do you UNDERSTAND, ..."TRUE doctrine"


pEACE... (not VENGENCE) = TRUE doctrine... = Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

gRACE... (not TORMENT and FEAR) = TRUE doctrine -- Matt 5:44-48 -- Eph 2:8-9

lOVE... (not INTIMIDATION tactic/HELL) = TRUE doctrine -- 1 Cor 13:8 -- 1 John 4:18



...willieH

 

[WillieH]

this coming from one who probably doesn't believe in the Trinity? No wonder.

...What is the point in "believing" in something (trinity) that is not even mentioned, let alone a subject, ...of the WORD of God???



Peace...


...willieH

 

[createdtoworship]

...What is the point in "believing" in something (trinity) that is not even mentioned, let alone a subject, ...of the WORD of God???

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Did you say God? Good answer, for it is written...
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

But we also read Jesus saying and the the Scriptures stating...
John 2:19-21- "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body."See? Jesus said He would do it.

Now the Holy Spirit...
Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Now, the Father...
Romans 6:4 -"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Quite simple, eh?

The trinity in scripture.

 

[createdtoworship]

I spent 25 years in the "Orthodox" system, and am quite well aware of ALL of its ...teachings (which btw... is the defintion of the word "doctrine")...

You are quite right that one must "have ears to HEAR to UNDERSTAND TRUE doctrine"... and it is my observation of your present position that unfortunately, you do not possess those EARS to HEAR... ...nor do you UNDERSTAND, ..."TRUE doctrine"


pEACE... (not VENGENCE) = TRUE doctrine... = Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

gRACE... (not TORMENT and FEAR) = TRUE doctrine -- Matt 5:44-48 -- Eph 2:8-9

lOVE... (not INTIMIDATION tactic/HELL) = TRUE doctrine -- 1 Cor 13:8 -- 1 John 4:18



...willieH

that is an allegation that you have to prove.

 

[createdtoworship]

Lol I answered that and you messed up the response by putting it under your quote!
[/INDENT]Mat 4:10 is &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#951;&#963;&#949;&#953;&#962;, meaning [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]genuflect earlier (&#924;&#917 as genuflection: from eccles. L. genuflectere, from L. genu &#8216;knee&#8217; plus flectere &#8216;to bend&#8217;.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G4352 &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#973;&#957;&#949;&#969; genuflection, obeisance, homage, bow; courtesy[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Matt. 2:2 &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#951;&#963;&#945;&#953;; ABP_GRK(i)
2 G3004 &#955;&#941;&#947;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962; G4226 &#960;&#959;&#965; G1510.2.3 &#949;&#963;&#964;&#943;&#957; G3588 &#959; G5088 &#964;&#949;&#967;&#952;&#949;&#943;&#962; G935 &#946;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#955;&#949;&#973;&#962; G3588 &#964;&#969;&#957; G* &#921;&#959;&#965;&#948;&#945;&#943;&#969;&#957; G1492 &#949;&#943;&#948;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#957; &#947;&#945;&#961; G1063 G1473 &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#973; G3588 &#964;&#959;&#957; G792 &#945;&#963;&#964;&#941;&#961;&#945; G1722 &#949;&#957; G3588 &#964;&#951; G395 &#945;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#942; G2532 &#954;&#945;&#953; G2064 &#942;&#955;&#952;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#957; G4352 &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#942;&#963;&#945;&#953; G1473 &#945;&#965;&#964;&#974;2:11 &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#949;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#951;&#963;&#945;&#957;; 14:33 &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#949;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#951;&#963;&#945;&#957;;
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]28:9 &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#949;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#951;&#963;&#945;&#957; [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]&#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#973;&#957;&#951;&#956;&#945; compare [G5462, G1120][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Matthew 4:10 (Tischendorf)

10 G5119 ADV &#964;&#8057;&#964;&#949; G3004 V-PAI-3S &#955;&#8051;&#947;&#949;&#953; G846 P-DSM &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8183; G3588 T-NSM &#8001; G2424 N-NSM &#7992;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#8166;&#962;&#903; G5217 V-PAM-2S &#8021;&#960;&#945;&#947;&#949;, G4567 N-VSM &#963;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957;&#8118;&#903; G1125 V-RPI-3S &#947;&#8051;&#947;&#961;&#945;&#960;&#964;&#945;&#953; G1063 CONJ &#947;&#8049;&#961;, G2962 N-ASM &#954;&#8059;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#957; G3588 T-ASM &#964;&#8056;&#957; G2316 N-ASM &#952;&#949;&#8057;&#957; G4771 P-2GS &#963;&#959;&#965; G4352 V-FAI-2S &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#8053;&#963;&#949;&#953;&#962; G2532 CONJ &#954;&#945;&#8054; G846 P-DSM &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8183; G3441 A-DSM &#956;&#8057;&#957;&#8179; G3000 V-FAI-2S &#955;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#949;&#8059;&#963;&#949;&#953;&#962;
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Mr 5:6 And seeing Jesus from afar, he ran and kneeling down before him, G4352[/FONT]

Mark 5:6 (Tischendorf)

6 G2532 CONJ &#954;&#945;&#8054; G3708 V-2AAP-NSM &#7984;&#948;&#8060;&#957; G3588 T-ASM &#964;&#8056;&#957; G2424 N-ASM &#7992;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#8166;&#957; G575 PREP &#7936;&#960;&#8056; G3113 ADV &#956;&#945;&#954;&#961;&#8057;&#952;&#949;&#957; G5143 V-2AAI-3S &#7956;&#948;&#961;&#945;&#956;&#949;&#957; G2532 CONJ &#954;&#945;&#8054; G4352 V-AAI-3S &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#949;&#954;&#8059;&#957;&#951;&#963;&#949;&#957; G846 P-DSM &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8183;
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And here in Mark 15:19 read the content and then apply the meanings.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
15:19 And they beat his head with a cane, and spit upon him, and utterly prostrate <5087>they did obeisance <G4352> to him.
Mark 15:19 (Tischendorf)

19 G2532 CONJ &#954;&#945;&#8054; G5180 V-IAI-3P &#7956;&#964;&#965;&#960;&#964;&#959;&#957; G846 P-GSM &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; G3588 T-ASF &#964;&#8052;&#957; G2776 N-ASF &#954;&#949;&#966;&#945;&#955;&#8052;&#957; G2563 N-DSM &#954;&#945;&#955;&#8049;&#956;&#8179; G2532 CONJ &#954;&#945;&#8054; G1716 V-IAI-3P &#7952;&#957;&#8051;&#960;&#964;&#965;&#959;&#957; G846 P-DSM &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8183;, G2532 CONJ &#954;&#945;&#8054; G5087 V-PAP-NPM &#964;&#953;&#952;&#8051;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962; G3588 T-APN &#964;&#8048; G1119 N-APN &#947;&#8057;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#945; G4352 V-IAI-3P &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#949;&#954;&#8059;&#957;&#959;&#965;&#957; G846 P-DSM &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8183;

[/FONT][/FONT]2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

So, how is it that we get so many denominations?
Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

That, very simply put, gives you the many different ways that Eph is translated. The exegesis is up to the translator.

2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

The meaning then, is to search all things and to use the scriptures to find the answers.

How much do you want to know? Research the actual Greek translations and use a Lexicon.

Compare the Oldest manuscripts with the newest and decide for yourself who is telling the "Truth".
"Inerrancy and New Testament Exegesis" by R. T. France

How?
Read the Bible daily, start with a verse from Genesis, one from Psalms, one from the NT starting at Matthew.
Reading daily, you will see the pattern of overlaping verses, which confirm the others.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

In high places - &#917;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#949;&#960;&#959;&#965;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#953;&#962;&#903; In the most sublime stations. But who are these of whom the apostle speaks? Schoettgen contends that the rabbis and Jewish rulers are intended.

By the spiritual wickedness in heavenly places, he thinks false teachers, who endeavored to corrupt Christianity, are meant; such as those mentioned by St. John, 1 John 2:19 : They went out from us, but they were not of us, etc.

And he thinks the meaning may be extended to all corrupters of Christianity in all succeeding ages. He shows also that the Jews called their own city &#1513;&#1512; &#1513;&#1500; &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1501; sar shel olam, &#954;&#959;&#963;&#956;&#959;&#954;&#961;&#945;&#964;&#969;&#961;, the rulers of the world; and proves that David's words,

Psalm 2:2, The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, are applied by the apostles, Acts 4:26, to the Jewish rulers, &#945;&#961;&#967;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962;, who persecuted Peter and John for preaching Christ crucified.

You are still avoiding translating the verses I asked you to translate...

do you or do you not believe Jesus Christ Received "worship?"

it's a simple question which you are avoiding. Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 that you should worship (proskuneo) God only, yet He willingly receives worship in Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38. What is your opinion of these verses? In Thayers Proskuneo can mean both "worship" and "do obeisance?" Do you believe people worshiped Jesus or just did obeisance?

as far as Mark 15:19 I don't believe there is anything wrong with saying Christ received worship from unbelievers.

secondly, if mark 15:19 IS accurately "Obeisance" than that means that when a believer does that act it is to be considered worship correct?