Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[he-man]

Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did you say God? Good answer, for it is written...
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."The trinity in scripture.

Not quite...
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but vitalized by the Spirit:

While it is a fact that clear references to non-canonical books are few in the New Testament, they are undoubtedly present. Jude, in his few verses, quotes explicitly from the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses, and makes clear use of the non-biblical tradition of the imprisonment of the fallen angels awaiting their final punishment, which holds a central place in much of the Enoch literature, and recurs frequently in other late Jewish writing.

And anyone who has wrestled with the exegesis of 1 Peter 3:19-20 will have discovered (if he has done his job properly) that the same tradition is the basic prerequisite for understanding that passage, indeed that to try to interpret it without reference to the Book of Enoch is a recipe for chaos, making it a happy hunting-ground for extraneous ideas like purgatory and the harrowing of hell, to which it in fact gives no support.

Grammatico-historical exegesis demands that we allow the biblical writers to speak to us out of their own environment, and that environment includes more than just the Bible itself. It is our business to discover the concepts and traditions which were common ground between the biblical writers and their original readers, but which may be lost or little known to us.

For example, did the centurion send his Jewish friends to ask Jesus to heal his servant (so Lk. 7:1-10), or did he come himself (so Mt. 8:5-13)?

What was the point, for instance, of Matthew's passage about the coin in the fish's mouth (17:24-27)?


"Inerrancy and New Testament Exegesis" by R. T. France

 

[createdtoworship]

Not quite...
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but vitalized by the Spirit:

While it is a fact that clear references to non-canonical books are few in the New Testament, they are undoubtedly present. Jude, in his few verses, quotes explicitly from the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses, and makes clear use of the non-biblical tradition of the imprisonment of the fallen angels awaiting their final punishment, which holds a central place in much of the Enoch literature, and recurs frequently in other late Jewish writing.

And anyone who has wrestled with the exegesis of 1 Peter 3:19-20 will have discovered (if he has done his job properly) that the same tradition is the basic prerequisite for understanding that passage, indeed that to try to interpret it without reference to the Book of Enoch is a recipe for chaos, making it a happy hunting-ground for extraneous ideas like purgatory and the harrowing of hell, to which it in fact gives no support.

Grammatico-historical exegesis demands that we allow the biblical writers to speak to us out of their own environment, and that environment includes more than just the Bible itself. It is our business to discover the concepts and traditions which were common ground between the biblical writers and their original readers, but which may be lost or little known to us.

For example, did the centurion send his Jewish friends to ask Jesus to heal his servant (so Lk. 7:1-10), or did he come himself (so Mt. 8:5-13)?

What was the point, for instance, of Matthew's passage about the coin in the fish's mouth (17:24-27)?


"Inerrancy and New Testament Exegesis" by R. T. France

It is possible that the things referred to in Enoch are true, while the book itself is not inspired.

There are many non biblical books mentioned in the Bible

the book of jasher is one, the Acts of Solomon and dozens more but it doesn't mean that the Bible is wrong nor does it mean the references quoted are inspired by God.

Non-canonical books referenced in the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and you still didn't answer my question in post 120

 

[he-man]

You are still avoiding translating the verses I asked you to translate...do you or do you not believe Jesus Christ Received "worship?" secondly, if mark 15:19 IS accurately "Obeisance" than that means that when a believer does that act it is to be considered worship correct?

NO, not correct. Worship is the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity © Oxford University Press, 2004

Christ was not deserving until after the ascention and is waiting for the septre, on the right hand of God.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard. And when I had heard and seen, fell bending the knee before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Rev 22:8 καγω ιωαννης ο ακουων και λεπων ταυτα και οτε ηκουσα και εβλεψα επεσα προσκυνησαι εμπροσθεν των ποδων του αγγελου του δεικνυοντος μοι ταυτα

9 και λεγει μοι ορα μη συνδουλος σου ειμι και των αδελφων σου των προφητων και των τηρουντων τους λογους του βιβλιου τουτου τω θεω προσκυνησον
Lol I answered that and you messed up the response by putting it under your quote!

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]genuflection: is a courtesy and was treated the same as a salutation or as most often expressed as a "Kiss", which was very common in those days. See G[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]5462, 1120[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]χαιρετω salute salutation, kiss, or to bend the knee[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]γονυπετησας γονυπετιεω genuflect [/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]Mat 4:10 is προσκυνησεις, meaning [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]genuflect earlier (Μ&#917 as genuflection: from eccles. L. genuflectere, from L. genu ‘knee’ plus flectere ‘to bend’.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G4352 προσκύνεω genuflection, obeisance, homage, bow; courtesy[/FONT][/FONT]

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Now, answer these:

For example, did the centurion send his Jewish friends to ask Jesus to heal his servant (so Lk. 7:1-10), or did he come himself (so Mt. 8:5-13)?

What was the point, for instance, of Matthew's passage about the coin in the fish's mouth (17:24-27)?

 

[Fulltruthministry]

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Did you say God? Good answer, for it is written...
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

But we also read Jesus saying and the the Scriptures stating...
John 2:19-21- "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body."See? Jesus said He would do it.

Now the Holy Spirit...
Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Now, the Father...
Romans 6:4 -"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Quite simple, eh?

The trinity in scripture.

Blessings:
I sometimes ask myself;
OK:
I believe that the Father and the Son are ONE:
BUT: The Holy Spirit doesnt make the Father; nor the Son; Being that the Son returned to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit back to us:
Thus to say God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit: Then where do we put those that live in that Holy Spirit;
It exludes us:
Thats what happen when we use worldy terms to try to understand God.
Sure; in some cases its not a bad thing; but it can be used to decieve or distory what Scritpure states for itslelf:

We know that the FAther and the Son are ONE":

So when Jesus said i will raise:
Could that have been the Father speaking in Him and for Him.
When the disciples as to see the FAther;

Didnt Jesus say: Have i been with you this long:
So the Father sometimes spoke directly in His person through the Son:

Doenst mean that Jesus rose HIMSELF;
The Father rose the Son;
JESUS SAYS IT HIMSELF
He said You did not let Your Holy One see curruption:
Yet i do think your post gave glory to God;
I dont think we can explain Gods ways with ANYTHING outside of His HOLY WORD

 

[LutheranMafia]

How?
Read the Bible daily, start with a verse from Genesis, one from Psalms, one from the NT starting at Matthew.
Reading daily, you will see the pattern of overlaping verses, which confirm the others.

Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

In high places - Εν τοις επουρανιοις· In the most sublime stations. But who are these of whom the apostle speaks? Schoettgen contends that the rabbis and Jewish rulers are intended.

By the spiritual wickedness in heavenly places, he thinks false teachers, who endeavored to corrupt Christianity, are meant; such as those mentioned by St. John, 1 John 2:19 : They went out from us, but they were not of us, etc.

And he thinks the meaning may be extended to all corrupters of Christianity in all succeeding ages. He shows also that the Jews called their own city שר של עולם sar shel olam, κοσμοκρατωρ, the rulers of the world; and proves that David's words,

Psalm 2:2, The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, are applied by the apostles, Acts 4:26, to the Jewish rulers, αρχοντες, who persecuted Peter and John for preaching Christ crucified.

You keep repeating the exact same long winded posts. This is spam.

 

[Fulltruthministry]

Well, it is not a punishment, it is a penalty brought on by not obeying God. Adam was penalized for not obeying God and was penalized with the sentence of DEATH. Why would it be any different for people today.

The sentence is for some eternal life but for those who refuse to accept God the penalty is eternal DEATH. That is to say, DEATH, annihiliation forever.

The sentence for those who have known or became aware of the "TRUTH" but have refused or tried to translate it into a lie, will be the "2nd DEATH".

I cannot say what type of DEATH it might be, Cancer, Hit by a Semi while driving down the interstate, Shot in the head during a robbery, Killed by a Tornado........

There is no HELL.
There is no Torment.
There is nothing but DEATH for unbelievers.

2Ch 22:7 And the destruction of Ahaziah was of God by coming to Joram: for when he was come, he went out with Jehoram against Jehu the son of Nimshi, whom the LORD had anointed to cut off the house of Ahab.

2Ch 26:16 But when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his destruction: for he transgressed against the LORD his God, and went into the temple of the LORD to burn incense upon the altar of incense.

Job 18:12 His strength shall be hungerbitten, and destruction ready at his side.

13 It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.

Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.

18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.

Mal 4:1 For behold, the day cometh, burning as a furnace; and all the proud and all that work wickedness shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, so that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2Pe 3:7 But the present heavens and the earth by his word are laid up in store, kept for fire unto a day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

I don’t think we can grow with word play;
You say its not a punishment; but rather a penalty:
Gods Word uses the word for punish or reproof in many instances:
So that penalty is a punishment: Even by definition:

You say Adam was penalized; Where does it say that in Gods Word:
Is our personal interpretations higher then Gods WORD: Some may think so; I DON’T:

So where do we go with that; do we say that only the woman can be punished: Untruth takes many different roots then what we see on the surface of the soil sometimes: But I wont judge that way: Glory to God





QOUTE

The sentence is for some eternal life but for those who refuse to accept God the penalty is eternal DEATH. That is to say, DEATH, annihiliation forever.

The sentence for those who have known or became aware of the "TRUTH" but have refused or tried to translate it into a lie, will be the "2nd DEATH".

I cannot say what type of DEATH it might be, Cancer, Hit by a Semi while driving down the interstate, Shot in the head during a robbery, Killed by a Tornado........


END QOUTE



UNWISE:
Total misunderstanding; this is what happens when someone applies A LOT of flesh and carnal thought in understanding Scripture; its also that way of some that breath outside of the righteousness of the Holy Spirit; nor can they live in that power; because they don’t truly BEILEVE: SO yes; for them hell would be a total offense; and yet they stand in agreement with that they think is being said by God; and yet that word doesn’t agree with those that live in the love of God; something to think about:



QOUTE
There is no HELL.
There is no Torment.
There is nothing but DEATH for unbelievers.
END QOUTE


And who would whisper that into someone spirit except the one that follows death; for this one is well acquainted with death because it follows: And yet it hides behind what’s before it; even the fear of men:


Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him.

hadēs​

1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell



And then my brother you went on to give examples of men being destroyed in the flesh;
Yet there is another destruction;
Its called the second death;
And its for all that disobey; not just those that claim to believe and then leave the faith; This falls upon all that don’t believe; and yet one that would think this way would have himself to believe, yet without knowing what to believe; thus they must dissect the word of God to comfort their personal believe; and its hard to get across to one such as this; for the mind has already been seared: God forbid:

 

[Fulltruthministry]

So if mal says God will leave not a branch; does not this mean presence on earth;
Yet men will be subject to the flames that burns:
One way or another:
Either we will live in the fire of the holy Spirit; letting God burn our sins away NOW:
Or we shall burn alone with them until they are fully purged:
PUNISHMENT:

BUT:
THEOLOGY
MINE: GLORY TO GOD

WHO says we will feel that burn forever:
Who says we will burn as a man burns in the flesh:
Gods word says the worm will never die;
Thus the body will burn forever: And so shall the smoke of that torment rise forever:
Yet who is tormented for ever and ever
THE devil and the false prophet:

Because their sins reached a full measure worthy of eternal torment:
And so shall men be tormented according to their sins;

What is the torment;
Is it pain like we think in our human minds;
Or is it being cut off from God;
Chains of darkness:
Even the man in Luke 16:23 was tormented: And he was yet to be thrown into the lake of fire:
Yet he did ask for a drop of water to be put on his tongue:
Thus the torment is being cut off from the goodness of God completely:
Being cut off from any feeling of goodness:
Covered in the shame and desire of our own sins:
And the lake of fire is the judgment that burns the penalty away:


Know if someone can find in scripture somewhere that says men will be in hell forever; I would like to see this:

I know God says the smoke of our torment rises forever:
I know the Word says the worms eat the body forever:
BUT does the soul burn out;
Does ones awareness just burn out according to the amount of sin that have to be tormented from; or the things they will have to pay for in the fires of hell:

If the fire of the Holy Spirit takes our sins away;
Then what would you think the fires of hell to be fore;
To punish those that didn’t allow God to burn their sins away;

EVEN MORE SO:
What do you make of this passage of Scripture:

Matthew 5:24-26

King James Version (KJV)
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.





Matthew 5:24-26

New International Version (NIV)
24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.




YOU WILL NOT GET OUT UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY
We forget about that; not many speak on that; THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND IT
God forbid"
Is this saying that souls will burn away in their sins and be no more; just like they want; so shall they recieve
God knows; I know I just wanna be with JESUS: BIG BLESSING

 

[Fulltruthministry]

AND bless you brother he man
atleast you are trying to learn;
but wisdom recieves instruction;
You seem to have spent your life thinking that you have the only call in Gods word:
So instead of studying the WHOLE WORD FIRST
and getting to know God before you try to study God,.
You just came up with teachings that only envolve bits and pieces of whats true to you.
And then when someone shows you whats written; as the brothers and sisters have; you wont recieve the instruction.
BUT WISDOM RECIEVES:
BUT God bless us all in the good name of JESUS

 

[he-man]

I don’t think we can grow with word play;
You say its not a punishment; but rather a penalty:
UNWISE:
Total misunderstanding; this is what happens when someone applies A LOT of flesh and carnal thought in understanding Scripture; its also that way of some that breath outside of the righteousness of the Holy Spirit; nor can they live in that power; because they don’t truly BEILEVE: SO yes; for them hell would be a total offense; and yet they stand in agreement with that they think is being said by God; and yet that word doesn’t agree with those that live in the love of God; something to think about:
And who would whisper that into someone spirit except the one that follows death; for this one is well acquainted with death because it follows: And yet it hides behind what’s before it; even the fear of men:
Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him.3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
And then my brother you went on to give examples of men being destroyed in the flesh;
Yet there is another destruction;
Its called the second death;
And its for all that disobey; not just those that claim to believe and then leave the faith; This falls upon all that don’t believe; and yet one that would think this way would have himself to believe, yet without knowing what to believe; thus they must dissect the word of God to comfort their personal believe; and its hard to get across to one such as this; for the mind has already been seared: God forbid:

Are you prepared to eat your words and dine with Christ?

Revelation 3:18-20 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. (19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. (20) Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[createdtoworship]

NO, not correct. Worship is the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity © Oxford University Press, 2004

Christ was not deserving until after the ascention and is waiting for the septre, on the right hand of God.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard. And when I had heard and seen, fell bending the knee before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Rev 22:8 καγω ιωαννης ο ακουων και λεπων ταυτα και οτε ηκουσα και εβλεψα επεσα προσκυνησαι εμπροσθεν των ποδων του αγγελου του δεικνυοντος μοι ταυτα

9 και λεγει μοι ορα μη συνδουλος σου ειμι και των αδελφων σου των προφητων και των τηρουντων τους λογους του βιβλιου τουτου τω θεω προσκυνησον
Lol I answered that and you messed up the response by putting it under your quote!

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]genuflection: is a courtesy and was treated the same as a salutation or as most often expressed as a "Kiss", which was very common in those days. See G[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]5462, 1120[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]χαιρετω salute salutation, kiss, or to bend the knee[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]γονυπετησας γονυπετιεω genuflect [/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]Mat 4:10 is προσκυνησεις, meaning [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]genuflect earlier (Μ&#917 as genuflection: from eccles. L. genuflectere, from L. genu ‘knee’ plus flectere ‘to bend’.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G4352 προσκύνεω genuflection, obeisance, homage, bow; courtesy[/FONT][/FONT]

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Now, answer these:

For example, did the centurion send his Jewish friends to ask Jesus to heal his servant (so Lk. 7:1-10), or did he come himself (so Mt. 8:5-13)?

What was the point, for instance, of Matthew's passage about the coin in the fish's mouth (17:24-27)?

so to get this right you believe because Jesus wasn't rose yet that these verses are "obeisance" and not worship?
(Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38.)

secondly, you don't believe Jesus was God until He rose from the dead?

What about this verse?

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me," (Isaiah 43:10).

Doesn't that mean that Jesus was God since the beginning of time (John 1:1)?

 

[he-man]

so to get this right you believe because Jesus wasn't rose yet that these verses are "obeisance" and not worship? (Matt. 2:2; 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; and John 9:35-38.)
secondly, you don't believe Jesus was God until He rose from the dead? What about this verse?

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me," (Isaiah 43:10).

Doesn't that mean that Jesus was God since the beginning of time (John 1:1)?

You just forgot about these:

Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.

Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but He:

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD GOD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13 Yea, before the day was I am He; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 43:10 ˜ γενεϲθε μοι μαρτυρεϲ · και εγω μαρτυϲ λεγει κϲ ο θϲ · και ο παιϲ ον εξελεξαμην · ϊνα γνωται και πιϲτευϲητε και ϲυνητε · οτι εγω ειμι · εμπροϲθεν μου · ουκ εγενετο αλλοϲ θϲ · και μετ εμε · ουκ εϲται ˙
11 εγω ο θϲ · και ουκ εϲιν παρεξʼ εμου ϲωζων ˙
12 ανηγγιλα και εϲωϲα · ωνιδιϲα · και ουκ η εν υ̇μιν αλλοτριοϲ · ϋμιϲ εμοι μαρτυραιϲ · και εγω κϲ ο θϲ
13 ετι απ αρχηϲ · και ουκ εϲιν εκʼ > των χιρων μου εξερουμενοϲ ˙ ποιηϲω · και τιϲ αποϲτρεψει αυτο :
14 ουτωϲ λεγει κϲ ο θϲ · ο λυτρουμενοϲ ϋμαϲ ο αγιοϲ ιηλ ˙ ενεκεν ϋμων · αποϲτελω ειϲ βαβυλωνα · και επεγερω πανταϲ φευονταϲ · και χαλδεοι εν πλιοιϲ δεθηϲονται ·
15 εγω κϲ ο θϲ ο αγιοϲ ϋμω . ο καταδιξαϲ ιηλ βαϲιλεα ϋμων · [Codex Siniaticus]

 

[LutheranMafia]

secondly, you don't believe Jesus was God until He rose from the dead?

I'm glad that you can interpret his posts. I get lost in his lengthy lists of seemingly unrelated verses.

 

[createdtoworship]

Blessings:
I sometimes ask myself;
OK:
I believe that the Father and the Son are ONE:
BUT: The Holy Spirit doesnt make the Father; nor the Son; Being that the Son returned to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit back to us:
Thus to say God is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit: Then where do we put those that live in that Holy Spirit;
It exludes us:
Thats what happen when we use worldy terms to try to understand God.
Sure; in some cases its not a bad thing; but it can be used to decieve or distory what Scritpure states for itslelf:

We know that the FAther and the Son are ONE":

So when Jesus said i will raise:
Could that have been the Father speaking in Him and for Him.
When the disciples as to see the FAther;

Didnt Jesus say: Have i been with you this long:
So the Father sometimes spoke directly in His person through the Son:

Doenst mean that Jesus rose HIMSELF;
The Father rose the Son;
JESUS SAYS IT HIMSELF
He said You did not let Your Holy One see curruption:
Yet i do think your post gave glory to God;
I dont think we can explain Gods ways with ANYTHING outside of His HOLY WORD

The holy spirit is God,

The fact that the Holy Spirit is God is clearly seen in many Scriptures, including Acts 5:3-4. In this verse Peter confronts Ananias as to why he lied to the Holy Spirit and tells him that he had “not lied to men but to God.” It is a clear declaration that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God.

Besides the Holy spirit creates: (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30) and expelling demons (Matt. 12:28).

Life: The Holy Spirit "lives" (Rom. 8:11; 1 Cor. 3:16).

Intelligence: The Spirit "knows" (1 Cor. 2:11). Rom. 8:27 refers to "the mind of the Spirit." This mind is able to make judgments — a decision "seemed good" to the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28). These verses imply a distinct intelligence.

Will: 1 Cor. 12:11 says that the Spirit "determines" decisions, showing that the Spirit has a will. The Greek word means "he or it determines." Although the Greek word does not specify the subject of the verb, the most likely subject in the context is the Spirit. To find a different subject, one would have to backtrack through five verses and six mentions of the Spirit. But this grammatical leapfrogging is not necessary. Since we know from other verses that the Spirit has mind and knowledge and judgment, there is no reason to reject the conclusion in 1 Cor. 12:11 that the Spirit also has will.

 

[LutheranMafia]

You just forgot about these:

Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.


Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but He:

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13 Yea, before the day was I am He; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

15I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

So are you a JW?

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi gradyll...

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Did you say God? Good answer, for it is written...
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

FIRST -- dear brother, ...I do not need YOU to answer for ME... ...I am quite aware of the Scriptures and what they SAY... as well as WHERE they SAY what they SAY...


SECOND -- Yes YHVH GOD who IS LIVING WITHOUT INTERUPPTION of LIFE (everlasting), did raise JESUS, whose LIFE became INTERUPPTED by DEATH... GOD cannot DIE for HE (not "them") is EVERLASTING... JESUS was specifically MADE for the suffering of DEATH -- Heb 2:9

JESUS did NOT "raise Himself", ...YHVH which WITHDREW from Him so that He might DIE, raised Him... YHVH God who claims NO OTHER GODS EXIST -- Isaiah 45:21 -- there is NONE ...BESIDE... ME! (NOT "us") ===> NO TRINITY

But we also read Jesus saying and the the Scriptures stating...
John 2:19-21- "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body."See? Jesus said He would do it.

Try again bro...

Again... you scratch the surface of understanding... for JESUS said -- John 5:19, 30 -- "the SON of MAN... CAN DO NOTHING of HIMSELF..." -- NOTHING is DONE by Him... ALL is DONE by YHVH GOD, ...which fully dwelt IN HIM -- Col 2:9 -- Eph 1:11 ===> NO TRINITY

It is more than plain that on MANY OCCASIONS, ...JESUS clearly spoke from 2 separate and different positions. Admitting clearly, ...that OF HIMSELF, He DID and SAID, ...NOTHING -- John 5:19 -- John 12:49

He spoke as a MAN (son of MAN), and the expression of the DIVINE within (son of GOD)... for He is (as are we), OFFSPRING of MAN (SON) and, ...He is OFFSPRING of GOD (SON), ...not GOD Himself.

JESUS on occasion (as the SON OF MAN) clearly displayed that He did NOT have DIVINE knowledge -- Mark 15:34 -- nor that He was cognizant of ALL DIVINE PURPOSE -- Mark 14:35-36 -- Matt 26:39 ===> NO TRINITY

Now the Holy Spirit...Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

The 2nd offering of your contradictory thinking... First you said JESUS "raised Himself", now you attempt to utilize Scripture to note that this "raising" was done by "the Spirit"... Which is it, gradyll?

YHVH God IS SPIRIT... and IS HOLY... and IS the FATHER of JESUS -- John 1:20 -- "...fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is CONCIEVED in her, is OF THE HOLY GHOST". (which happens to be the FATHER) -- There is NO OTHER GOD but YHVH -- Isaiah 43:11 ===> NO TRINITY

Now, the Father...
Romans 6:4 -"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

You just contradicted yourself once AGAIN... You earlier stated that JESUS "raised Himself"... Then you stated that JESUS was "raised by the Spirit"

Here you note Scripture which actually serves to solidify MY POSITION, not yours... ...as I have been trying to show you! ===> NO TRINITY

The FATHER of JESUS is YHVH, which was He that CONCEIVED in MARY, the child which is GIVEN (by YHVH -- Isaiah 9:6), SENT (by YHVH -- John 4:14), as a sacrifice, which was MADE to DIE (by YHVH -- Heb 2:9)...

Who as a ...MAN... was given as a ransom to SAVE ALL -- 1 Tim 2:3-6

Who Himself, ...is SUBJECT TO YHVH God forever -- 1 Cor 15:28

One which is SUBJECT, ...is submitted unto the one He/she is SUBJECT to.

It is the WILL of YHVH which is DONE forever, ...NOT the will of JESUS who Himself, willingly submitted Himself unto the WILL of YHVH -- Mark 14:35-36 -- Matt 6:9 -- Luke 11:2

Case closed ===> NO TRINITY

Quite simple, eh?

The trinity in scripture.

It really IS quite simple gradyll, ...which makes me wonder why YOU can't seem to grasp it!

"TRINITY" is NOT in the Scriptures... Not MENTIONED IN THEM, ...not PROVEABLE BY THEM, ...not TRUTH, for said concept is NOT in the WORD of TRUTH...

You (as do all who hold this distorted belief) continually trip and stumble over your own doctrine bro...

First ...you say JESUS raised Himself...
Second ...you say that the SPIRIT raised Him...
Third ...you say that the FATHER raised Him...


REASON and LOGIC are therefore unavailable in your contention that there is a "TRINITY"... ...trying to utilize an ILLOGICAL illusion (that 3 persons=1 God), ...a teaching which is also NOT AVAILABLE in the WORD of God.

But hey... You are welcome to believe whatever you like... but just because YOU happen to believe it, ...certainly, ...does not make it so.


Peace...


...willieH

 

[he-man]

So are you a JW?

No, are you?
You just forgot about these: De 4:35 אתה הראת לדעת כי יהוה הוא האלהים אין עוד מלבדו

Deu 4:35 Unto you it was revealed, that you might understand since Jehovah, He is God; there is none else besides Him.

Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but He:

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD GOD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11I am GOD; and besides me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, and I am the LORD GOD.

13 Yea, before the day was I am He; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

14 Thus saith the LORD GOD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

15 I am the LORD GOD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 43:10 ˜ γενεϲθε μοι μαρτυρεϲ · και εγω μαρτυϲ λεγει κϲ ο θϲ · και ο παιϲ ον εξελεξαμην · ϊνα γνωται και πιϲτευϲητε και ϲυνητε · οτι εγω ειμι · εμπροϲθεν μου · ουκ εγενετο αλλοϲ θϲ · και μετ εμε · ουκ εϲται ˙
11 εγω ο θϲ · και ουκ εϲιν παρεξʼ εμου ϲωζων ˙
12 ανηγγιλα και εϲωϲα · ωνιδιϲα · και ουκ η εν υμιν αλλοτριοϲ · ϋμιϲ εμοι μαρτυραιϲ · και εγω κϲ ο θϲ
13 ετι απ αρχηϲ · και ουκ εϲιν εκʼ > των χιρων μου εξερουμενοϲ ˙ ποιηϲω · και τιϲ αποϲτρεψει αυτο :
14 ουτωϲ λεγει κϲ ο θϲ · ο λυτρουμενοϲ ϋμαϲ ο αγιοϲ ιηλ ˙ ενεκεν ϋμων · αποϲτελω ειϲ βαβυλωνα · και επεγερω πανταϲ φευονταϲ · και χαλδεοι εν πλιοιϲ δεθηϲονται ·
15 εγω κϲ ο θϲ ο αγιοϲ ϋμω . ο καταδιξαϲ ιηλ βαϲιλεα ϋμων · [Codex Siniaticus]

 

[createdtoworship]

willieH: Hi gradyll...



FIRST -- dear brother, ...I do not need YOU to answer for ME... ...I am quite aware of the Scriptures and what they SAY... as well as WHERE they SAY what they SAY...


SECOND -- Yes YHVH GOD who IS LIVING WITHOUT INTERUPPTION of LIFE (everlasting), did raise JESUS, whose LIFE became INTERUPPTED by DEATH... GOD cannot DIE for HE (not "them") is EVERLASTING... JESUS was specifically MADE for the suffering of DEATH -- Heb 2:9

JESUS did NOT "raise Himself", ...YHVH which WITHDREW from Him so that He might DIE, raised Him... YHVH God who claims NO OTHER GODS EXIST -- Isaiah 45:21 -- there is NONE ...BESIDE... ME! (NOT "us") ===> NO TRINITY




Try again bro...

Again... you scratch the surface of understanding... for JESUS said -- John 5:19, 30 -- "the SON of MAN... CAN DO NOTHING of HIMSELF..." -- NOTHING is DONE by Him... ALL is DONE by YHVH GOD, ...which fully dwelt IN HIM -- Col 2:9 -- Eph 1:11 ===> NO TRINITY

It is more than plain that on MANY OCCASIONS, ...JESUS clearly spoke from 2 separate and different positions. Admitting clearly, ...that OF HIMSELF, He DID and SAID, ...NOTHING -- John 5:19 -- John 12:49

He spoke as a MAN (son of MAN), and the expression of the DIVINE within (son of GOD)... for He is (as are we), OFFSPRING of MAN (SON) and, ...He is OFFSPRING of GOD (SON), ...not GOD Himself.

JESUS on occasion (as the SON OF MAN) clearly displayed that He did NOT have DIVINE knowledge -- Mark 15:34 -- nor that He was cognizant of ALL DIVINE PURPOSE -- Mark 14:35-36 -- Matt 26:39 ===> NO TRINITY




The 2nd offering of your contradictory thinking... First you said JESUS "raised Himself", now you attempt to utilize Scripture to note that this "raising" was done by "the Spirit"... Which is it, gradyll?

YHVH God IS SPIRIT... and IS HOLY... and IS the FATHER of JESUS -- John 1:20 -- "...fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is CONCIEVED in her, is OF THE HOLY GHOST". (which happens to be the FATHER) -- There is NO OTHER GOD but YHVH -- Isaiah 43:11 ===> NO TRINITY




You just contradicted yourself once AGAIN... You earlier stated that JESUS "raised Himself"... Then you stated that JESUS was "raised by the Spirit"

Here you note Scripture which actually serves to solidify MY POSITION, not yours... ...as I have been trying to show you! ===> NO TRINITY

The FATHER of JESUS is YHVH, which was He that CONCEIVED in MARY, the child which is GIVEN (by YHVH -- Isaiah 9:6), SENT (by YHVH -- John 4:14), as a sacrifice, which was MADE to DIE (by YHVH -- Heb 2:9)...

Who as a ...MAN... was given as a ransom to SAVE ALL -- 1 Tim 2:3-6

Who Himself, ...is SUBJECT TO YHVH God forever -- 1 Cor 15:28

One which is SUBJECT, ...is submitted unto the one He/she is SUBJECT to.

It is the WILL of YHVH which is DONE forever, ...NOT the will of JESUS who Himself, willingly submitted Himself unto the WILL of YHVH -- Mark 14:35-36 -- Matt 6:9 -- Luke 11:2

Case closed ===> NO TRINITY



It really IS quite simple gradyll, ...which makes me wonder why YOU can't seem to grasp it!

"TRINITY" is NOT in the Scriptures... Not MENTIONED IN THEM, ...not PROVEABLE BY THEM, ...not TRUTH, for said concept is NOT in the WORD of TRUTH...

You (as do all who hold this distorted belief) continually trip and stumble over your own doctrine bro...

First ...you say JESUS raised Himself...
Second ...you say that the SPIRIT raised Him...
Third ...you say that the FATHER raised Him...


REASON and LOGIC are therefore unavailable in your contention that there is a "TRINITY"... ...trying to utilize an ILLOGICAL illusion (that 3 persons=1 God), ...a teaching which is also NOT AVAILABLE in the WORD of God.

But hey... You are welcome to believe whatever you like... but just because YOU happen to believe it, ...certainly, ...does not make it so.


Peace...


...willieH

You believe in modalism and it's pretty easy to refute...

Why would Jesus pray to God if He was the same person as God.

Isn't it more accurate to say Jesus and God are the same God but different persons, able to communicate within the Trinity?

How would Jesus say not my will but yours, if He was the same person?

Your theory is relatively easy to refute.

The word trinity is in the latin bible, thats where we get the word trinity.

 

[he-man]

Isn't it more accurate to say Jesus and God are the same God but different persons, able to communicate within the Trinity? The word trinity is in the latin bible, thats where we get the word trinity.

1 John 5:7 (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one​

Which Latin are you referring? Proof please? You would have been better off to stick with the quote from Newton.

The KJV is Based on the Biased and faulty "Received Text" Textus Receptus
The "Received Text" is also not a single text. It is a tradition of printed texts published during the time of the Protestant Reformation, that is, the 1500's and early 1600's. It includes the editions of Erasmus, Estienne (Stephens), Beza, and Elzevir. These texts are closely allied, and are all mostly derived from Erasmus 1516. They are based upon a small number of late [16th Century] medieval manuscripts. The King James Version is based upon the Received Text.

1 John 5:7. Omit "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" at end of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.
1 John 5:8. Omit "And there are three that bear witness in earth" at beginning of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.

The irony is that the Received Text is not actually a single edition, but a sort of text-type of its own consisting of hundreds of extremely similar but not identical editions. Nor do any of its various flavours agree exactly with any extant text-type or manuscript. Thus the need, when referring to the Received Text, to specify which received text we refer to.

Textus Receptus (Latin: "received text") is the name subsequently given to the succession of printed Greek texts of the New Testament which constituted the translation base for the original German Luther Bible, for the translation of the New Testament into English by William Tyndale, the King James Version, and for most other Reformation-era New Testament translations throughout Western and Central Europe.

The series originated with the first printed Greek New Testament to be published; a work undertaken in Basel by the DutchCatholic scholar and humanist Desiderius Erasmus in 1516, on the basis of some six manuscripts, containing between them not quite the whole of the New Testament. The lacking text was translated from Vulgate. Although based mainly on late manuscripts of the Byzantine text-type, Erasmus's edition differed markedly from the classic form of that text.

Erasmus's third edition of 1522 contained one truly unfortunate innovation: The "Three Heavenly Witnesses" in 1 John 5:7-8. These were derived from the recently-written Codex 61, and (as the famous story goes) included by Erasmus "for the sake of his oath." Sadly, they have been found in almost every TR edition since.
http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/TR.html

 

[createdtoworship]

Which Latin are you referring? Proof please? You would have been better off to stick with the quote from Newton.

you still didn't answer my question in post 120 btw

How is this for proof. How is it that people are found quoting a verse that doesn't exist in any manuscripts according to you? See 750, 988, 1150a.d. are latin manuscripts that contain the "three in one", or "trinity" (in latin)


1 John 5:7-9 (trinity verse) in early christian writings This list is from 1 John 5:7 - Another King James Bible Believer
1 John 5:7-9 (trinity verse) in early christian writings


Priscillian (380 AD) bishop of Avilain in Liber Apologeticus: (This quote as given by A.E. Brooke from Schepps- Vienna Corpus, xviii) "As John says "and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus.""

Likewise, the anti-Arian work compiled by an unknown writer, the Varimadum (380 AD) states: "And John the Evangelist says, . . . “And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one”. (Varimadum 90:20-21).

and cyprian (one who quoted copiously and textually in the 3rd Century)

"The Lord says "I and the Father are one" and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. "And these three are one.""


168 A.D. Theophilus used the word "trinity" in his letter to Autolycus. Written in Greek. Theophilus became bishop of Antioch.

177 A.D. A writing in Greek---Anti-Nicene Fathers Apologia of Athenagoras presented to Roman emperors. "Who, then, would not be ashamed to hear men speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their distinction in order."

215 A.D. (25:1; CC2, 1195) Tertullian. Adversus Praxean per RB "And so the connection of the Father, and the Son, and of the Paraclete makes three cohering entities, one cohering from the other, which three are one entity" refers to the unity of their substance, not to the oneness of their number.

250 AD - Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians. Note that Cyprian is quoting and says "IT IS WRITTEN, And the three are One." He lived from 180 to 250 A.D. and the scriptures he had at that time contained the verse in question. This is at least 100 years before anything we have today in the Greek copies. If it wasn't part of Holy Scripture, then where did he see it WRITTEN?

350 AD - Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]

350 AD - Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]

350 AD - Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione

398 AD - Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism

415 AD - Council of Carthage. The contested verse (1 John 5:7) is quoted at the Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith for the "orthodox." It reads with the King James. How did 350 prelates in 415 A.D. take a verse to be orthodox that wasn't in the Bible? It had to exist there from the beginning. It was quoted as "Pater, VERBUM, et Spiritus Sanctus".

450-530 AD. Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]

450 A.D. Anchor Bible; Epistle of John, 782 Contra Varimadum 1.5 (CC90,20-21) "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one."

450 A.D. De divinis Scripturis suie Speculum
(A collection of statements and precepts drawn from the Old Latin Bible (both Old and New Testaments). It has been attributed to Augustine, but this is not likely. Aland dates it c. 427. Except in editions associated with the Alands, it is usually cited as m of the Old Latin. In Paul at least, the text seems to be generally more primitive than the European Latin of the bilingual uncials. In the Catholics, it has many links with the text of Priscillian.)
Latin MS, also known as "m" "and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one."note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

484 A.D. Victor of Vita Historia persecutionis Africanae prov. 2.82[3.11], CSEL7, 60

485 A.D. Victor Vitensis Historia persecutionis Africanae Provinciae 3.11 in PL58, 227C per RB "there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."


500 A.D. Beuron 64 known as "r". (Sometimes labeled CODEX MONACENSIS) CODEX FREISINGENSIS "and the three are one which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS
(Considered, after Amiatinus, the best Vulgate manuscript. Copied for and corrected by Victor of Capua. Italian text. The Gospels are in the form of a harmony (probably based on an Old Latin original, and with scattered Old Latin
readings). Includes the Epistle to the Laodiceans.)
Responsio contra Arianos (Ad 10, CC 91) RB "there are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit. And the three are one being."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS Contra Fabianum (frag. 21.4: CC 91A, 797) "There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Son and the Spirit. And the three are one being."

527 A.D. FULGENTIUS De Trinitate(1.4.1; CC91A 636), per RB "There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one being."
pre 550 A.D. JEROME prologue to the Catholic Epistles. "Preserved in the Codex Fuldensis (PL 29, 827-31)." per RB. Jerome writes in his prologue that the Comma (1John5:7-8) is genuine but has been omitted by unfaithful translators.

570 A.D. CASSIODORUS Complexionn. in Epistt. Paulinn. "Moreover, in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one God."

583 A.D. CASSIODORUS In Epistolam S. Joannis ad Parthos. (10.5.1; PL 70, 1373A) employs "Son" in place of "Word." NOTE: Cassiodorus cited the Comma in his commentary.

636 A.D. ISIDORE of SEVILLE Testimonia divinae Scripturae 2[PL, 83, 1203C] per RB. "And there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and the three are one."

650 A.D. The Leon Palimpsest, also known as "Legionensis" or Beuron 67 CODEX PAL LEGIONENSIS "and there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, and the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."

700 A.D. JAQUB of EDESSA On the Holy Eucharistic Mysteries, Syriac document "The soul and the body and the mind which are sanctified through three holy things; through water and blood and Spirit, and through the Father and the Son and the Spirit."

735 A.D. The year of the decease of Venerable Bede manuscript E (also known as Basiliensis), Greek. Located: Basel, Switzerland. Université Bibliothèque note: this manuscript also included Acts 8:37

750 A.D. harl 2 (also known as "z2" or Harleianus) Latin MS, Beuron 65, Latin Vulgate Bible all the Epistles (that to the Colossians following 2 Thessalonians and 1 John 5 - Jude crowded onto one leaf.)

850 A.D. The Ulmensis manuscript or "U" "Caroline minuscule" hand. Includes Laodiceans. Now in the British Museum. "Likewise, in heaven there are three, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and the three are one."

913 - 923 A.D. "leon 1" or Lemovicensis (dated it in the time of Ordogno II (913-923) Latin MS of the Cathedral of Leon "is a specimen of the Visigoth miniscule, and contains 1 John 5:7 - 8 in varied form."

930 A.D. Church of S. Isidore in Leon Latin MS designated as "leon 2" 1 John 5:7 - 8 is found only in the margin.

988 A.D. CODEX TOLETANUS or "T" Latin MS Note: also contains Acts 8:37a, 8:37 b, 9:5, 9:6 and 1 John 5:7.
Along with cav, the leading representative of the Spanish text. Among the earliest witnesses for "1 John 5:7-8," which it possesses in modified form. Written in a Visigothic hand, it was not new when it was given to the see of Seville in 988.

1120 A.D. An exposition of the Apostle's Creed used by the Waldenses and Albigensians "There are three that bear witness in heaven; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one."

1150 A.D. CODEX DEMIDOVIANUS Latin MS Note: contained also Acts 8:37 and 1 John 5:7 - 8.

1150 A.D. CODEX COLBERTINUS written in Languedoc, Old Latin Same as the Old Latin c of the Gospels. Often cited as Old Latin elsewhere, but the text is vulgate. The two sections are separately bound and in different hands. The Vulgate portion of the text is considered to be French.

1215 A.D. Acts of the Lateran Council Latin document "because there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."

1250 A.D. CODEX PERPINIANUS or Latin p or Beuron 54 Latin "p"
(Old Latin in 1:1-13:6, 28:16-end. The text is said to be similar to the fourth century writer Gregory of Elvira, and is thought to have been written in northern Spain or southern France. ) "And there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one." Note: also contains Acts 8:37
http://www.1john57.com/1john57.htm

1999 - The Sacred Bible (newest translation of the Catholic Church) includes the "three in one"
http://www.sacredbible.org/studybible/NT-23_1-John.htm

 

[he-man]

you still didn't answer my question in post 120 btw

How is this for proof. How is it that people are found quoting a verse that doesn't exist in any manuscripts according to you? See 750, 988, 1150a.d. are latin manuscripts that contain the "three in one", or "trinity" (in latin)Priscillian (380 AD) bishop of Avilain in Liber Apologeticus: (This quote as given by A.E. Brooke from Schepps- Vienna Corpus, xviii)

Is 43:11 I am GOD; and without1 me there is no saviour.
1* Hebrew מבלעדי without

Is 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

The passage [1John 5:7, 8] is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript.

The eight manuscripts are as follows:
* 61: codex Montfortianus, dating from the early sixteenth century.
* 88: a variant reading in a sixteenth century hand, added to the fourteenth-century codex Regius of Naples.
* 221: a variant reading added to a tenth-century manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.
* 429: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Wolfenbüttel.
* 629: a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican.
* 636: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Naples.
* 918: a sixteenth-century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.
* 2318: an eighteenth-century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest, Rumania.

Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.

(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).

The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius.

For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)
see any critical commentary on 1 John, or Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, pp. 101 f.; cf. also Ezra Abbot, "I. John v. 7 and Luther's German Bible," in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays (Boston, 1888), pp. 458-463.

Rudolf Bultmann German theologian of Lutheran background The same year his lecture New Testament and Mythology: The Problem of Demythologizing the New Testament Message called on interpreters to replace traditional supernaturalism with the temporal and existential categories of Bultmann's colleague, Martin Heidegger, rejecting doctrines such as the pre-existence of Christ
Rudolf Bultmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The KJV is Based on the Biased and faulty "Received Text" Textus Receptus
The "Received Text" is also not a single text. It is a tradition of printed texts published during the time of the Protestant Reformation, that is, the 1500's and early 1600's. It includes the editions of Erasmus, Estienne (Stephens), Beza, and Elzevir. These texts are closely allied, and are all mostly derived from Erasmus 1516. They are based upon a small number of late [16th Century] medieval manuscripts. The King James Version is based upon the Received Text.

1 John 5:7. Omit "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" at end of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.
1 John 5:8. Omit "And there are three that bear witness in earth" at beginning of verse. Eró1516ò Eró1519ò G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF.

Erasmus's third edition of 1522 contained one truly unfortunate innovation: The "Three Heavenly Witnesses" in 1 John 5:7-8. These were derived from the recently-written Codex 61, and (as the famous story goes) included by Erasmus "for the sake of his oath." Sadly, they have been found in almost every TR edition since.
http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/TR.html