Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[createdtoworship]

Wait a minute! The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, and it names names, therefore a parable can name names, so the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable.

thats begging the question as to if it is a parable.

 

[Timothew]

thats begging the question as to if it is a parable.

I know, exactly.

I did it to illustrate how you were begging the question.

You've excluded this story as a parable because it uses names and then said no parables use names.

It's the same as if you said "John" is not a name because there is no one in the world named John. If I pointed out a person whose name is John, you could say his name is not John because John is not a name.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

yea there's cut off dates.

Ezekiel 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

there's some verse that says something about the lord will not restrain forever, but I can't remember exactly how it goes or where it is.

You took Ezekiel 8, which was talking about Israel, and say its talking about the fate of all people? Out of context much? I'm just saying, there are verses out there that could be argued towards God finally saying "No more", but that was definitely not one.

Ezekiel 8:17-18
17 He said to me, “Have you seen this, son of man? Is it a trivial matter for the people of Judah to do the detestable things they are doing here? Must they also fill the land with violence and continually arouse my anger? Look at them putting the branch to their nose! 18 Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them.”

This is talking about Israel being sent into exile(in very violent, graphic language), and later, being promised that they would be reunited. Severe punishment, but with hope. Its this spirit throughout the Bible that makes me question us as people when we say, "There will come a time when hope for some will cease to exist". As Paul put it in 1 Corinthians 3

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[createdtoworship]

I know, exactly.

I did it to illustrate how you were begging the question.

You've excluded this story as a parable because it uses names and then said no parables use names.

It's the same as if you said "John" is not a name because there is no one in the world named John. If I pointed out a person whose name is John, you could say his name is not John because John is not a name.

but lazarus and the rich man is not widely held as a parable. Only a hand full of those people that dont believe in hell do it that way.

 

[theWaris1]

Tim and Gradyl crack me up.
It seems to me though that Tim is correct here.

If you take the facts about death in the old testament as the basis for how the decease behave then the story can only be a parable. For dead people don't speak unless they've been resurrected. They don't speak because scripture says they know nothing and have no memory.

Scriptures have to agree or else there is an error. That is called "rightly dividing the word". So the several statements about the dead must be considered and it would prove this is a parable.


If they are resurrected then they would have a new body.
Dead men don't have fleshly hands in the spirit world nor would spirits need to drink water.

Seriously if one was burning intensely would they be able to talk to people across a gulf and would one drop of water really help the pain of their burning tongue?

There is no rule that a parable can't use common names of people.

Once you see it as a parable the point of impact changes. It's Judah and his 5 brothers being thrown out while the Gentiles are suddenly being accepted in the bosom of Abraham and that's the inheritance.

Gentiles are in the house!

Shlama akai

 

[createdtoworship]

Dead men don't have fleshly hands in the spirit world nor would spirits need to drink water.

my guess is that natural desires are still there when your soul is absent from the body. Like when you cut off your leg and it still feels like it's there.


The meaning of the parable:
Judah and five brothers, others think it's Israel and gentiles, others think it is just a story with no implications. The truth is that if Christ didn't give the interpretation of the parable it's not a parable.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

my guess is that natural desires are still there when your soul is absent from the body. Like when you cut off your leg and it still feels like it's there.


The meaning of the parable:
Judah and five brothers, others think it's Israel and gentiles, others think it is just a story with no implications. The truth is that if Christ didn't give the interpretation of the parable it's not a parable.

Often Christ wouldn't even tell the people what he was talking about.

 

[createdtoworship]

Often Christ wouldn't even tell the people what he was talking about.

sometimes they were straightforward, no explanation necessary.

plus he speaks always of real places in parables and real job positions.

so if this was a parable He broke two rules

He lied about lazarus' name and he made up places that didn't exist.

again in all parables no one is named and no places are made up, they are real places.

Christ spoke in parables but He never spoke in fables (fairytales) but always used real things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5NYYvfYQK8

 

[Timothew]

There is no rule that a parable can't use common names of people.

Exactly. So Gradyll, you can't say "this is not a parable because it uses names."

Is this a literal story?
Did the rich guy go to hell with his body intact?
If so, how does this correlate to your theology?
If not, where did he keep his tongue and his eyes?
Judgment Day hasn't come yet. Why was the rich man in torment before he was judged?
How did the angels carry Lazarus to Abraham's Bosom?
Did Lazarus go to the bosom with his body intact?
If so, how does this relate to your theology?
If not, why does he have a finger?
Don't you think bosom is a funny word?
Where is the bosom and hades? Where is the chasm? If these are literal places, we should be able to go there. If these are not literal places, then the story is not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Timothew]

Definition of PARABLE

: example; specifically : a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle.
(Merriam-Webster)

Nothing is said about the use of real names and real places.
It is only your rule that Jesus can never use a real name and must always name real places in a parable. Is it possible that Jesus never heard of your rule either?

 

[Timothew]

sometimes they were straightforward, no explanation necessary.

plus he speaks always of real places in parables and real job positions.

so if this was a parable He broke two rules

He lied about lazarus' name and he made up places that didn't exist.

again in all parables no one is named and no places are made up, they are real places.

Christ spoke in parables but He never spoke in fables (fairytales) but always used real things.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT a parable - YouTube

This is circular reasoning.
No parables use names (except this one)
So this is not a parable.
So give it up, it's unconvincing.

Particularly when you consider the rest of the bible,
The wages of sin is death, not torture for a while in Hades and then torture forever in the Lake of Fire.
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction (2 Thess 1:9) Not temporary torture in hades followed up be permanent torture in another hades.

You are grasping at straws in order to hold on to your beloved doctrine.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

sometimes they were straightforward, no explanation necessary.

plus he speaks always of real places in parables and real job positions.

so if this was a parable He broke two rules

He lied about lazarus' name and he made up places that didn't exist.

again in all parables no one is named and no places are made up, they are real places.

Christ spoke in parables but He never spoke in fables (fairytales) but always used real things.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT a parable - YouTube

Yet he spoke saying the gates of Hades would not prevail against his church. Hades was a part of Greek mythology. That clearly wasn't a real literal place if you believe the Greek myths to be fictional. However, Sheol and Hades had similar concepts in that they were where the dead would go regardless of their morality. Christ borrowed this term, this common belief, to help explain his intentions.

Why is it that we don't get caught up about our faith being a mustard seed? Why is it that we don't get caught up with us not being able to move mountains because Jesus said if we had even a little amount of faith, that they would move? Clearly he must be a liar, right? Or is there another point behind what he is saying? That's what we're saying with the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

For that matter, why do you not question why the rich man wasn't given a name? Does that mean that the whole story is literal except for the rich man? Does that mean the rich man did not exist, or that the rich man did exist but Jesus wanted to keep his identity hidden? But that raises even more outlandish questions. We try to hold on firmly to one particular way of looking at this story and eventually lose the entire purpose of Jesus telling us about it.

 

[createdtoworship]

This is circular reasoning.
No parables use names (except this one)
So this is not a parable.
So give it up, it's unconvincing.

Particularly when you consider the rest of the bible,
The wages of sin is death, not torture for a while in Hades and then torture forever in the Lake of Fire.
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction (2 Thess 1:9) Not temporary torture in hades followed up be permanent torture in another hades.

You are grasping at straws in order to hold on to your beloved doctrine.

I may be grasping at straws but you are grasping at nothing in order to hold to your view, you are doing the exact same thing you accuse me of doing. I will not give it up, I found even more evidence against you in the form of that video. You still have nothing to say about it.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yet he spoke saying the gates of Hades would not prevail against his church. Hades was a part of Greek mythology. That clearly wasn't a real literal place if you believe the Greek myths to be fictional. However, Sheol and Hades had similar concepts in that they were where the dead would go regardless of their morality. Christ borrowed this term, this common belief, to help explain his intentions.

Why is it that we don't get caught up about our faith being a mustard seed? Why is it that we don't get caught up with us not being able to move mountains because Jesus said if we had even a little amount of faith, that they would move? Clearly he must be a liar, right? Or is there another point behind what he is saying? That's what we're saying with the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

For that matter, why do you not question why the rich man wasn't given a name? Does that mean that the whole story is literal except for the rich man? Does that mean the rich man did not exist, or that the rich man did exist but Jesus wanted to keep his identity hidden? But that raises even more outlandish questions. We try to hold on firmly to one particular way of looking at this story and eventually lose the entire purpose of Jesus telling us about it.

Isaiah 66:24 speaks of hell before greek mythology was invented.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

you'll have a hard time reconciling Isaiah 66:24 to mean that the entire Old Testament was really speaking of a literal dwelling place filled with fire for all eternity with the many other verses talking about hell as a deep sleep, a la sheol. this goes back to when I was first deconstructing our understanding of hell in the part 2 of this topic. hell of eternal suffering must have been talked about in the old testament for it to be true in the new testament. hell, or the grave, or sheol, or hades, is referred to as a place of sleep, you can look at Job 21:13 as one such example.

Its also interesting that hell was a word used around the 1500's in England that meant "to cover". Hades is the grave, and hell is to cover, or a covering (hence words like "helmet" hell-met). Its even more interesting that the KJV and NKJV are literally the only versions of the Bible that still use hell in the Old Testament, and the NKJV uses it less than the KJV.

If anything, Isaiah 66:24 is speaking of the smoldering ruins left on those who rebelled against Him, not a dwelling place of eternal suffering.

 

[theWaris1]

Isaiah 66:24 speaks of hell before greek mythology was invented.

LH is correct
Hell comes from the Anglo word 'Hellan' meaning "to cover", the word was coined about 800 a.d.

the Rich man was Judah who had 5 brothers; of the same Mom.
put that in context and the story is much deeper than just sending someone to burn in Gehenna for being rich.


Judah and his brothers were being cast out of the Bosom of Abraham while the Gentile(considered poor by Jews) Lazarus was going in.

it was a parable and not to be taken literally which would negate the scripture prophecy about all Israel being saved.

.

 

[createdtoworship]

I think you are confusing borrowing words from greek language and borrowing words from greek mythology. I believe Jesus simply used greek words to convey His message and as I stated before.

Isaiah 66:24 speaks of hell before greek mythology was invented. You have to prove it is not speaking of Hell, not just speculate.

commentaries on Isaiah 66 that support my view:

20–24. Not only will the nations come to my holy mountain Jerusalem during the millennial kingdom, but God promises to take priests and Levites from among them to serve Him. The chapter ends with a wonderful and awful promise of God’s perpetuity. The promise is that the new heavens and the new earth shall remain forever. This will usher in the final state of glorification, which shall be an unchanging state for both the redeemed and the damned. Not only shall the nations worship regularly at Jerusalem during the Millennium, but the people of God throughout all eternity shall come to worship in the New Jerusalem. All flesh refers to all of the redeemed of the Lord. These alone shall come to worship … the Lord. Isaiah’s universalism is not a message of universal salvation regardless of one’s faith, but a universal kingdom with the wicked purged out of it! Thus, the book ends with the awesome statement that the redeemed shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me. While the imagery may be drawn from the fact that one could stand in the Temple at Jerusalem and look down into the valley of Hinnom (from which the imagery for hell is drawn), nevertheless, the scene here seems rather to be that of the redeemed of heaven, in their final, glorified, and fixed state. Those who are described as suffering are undoubtedly in the lake of fire where their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched (Mk 9:44; Rev 20:14–15). The question is often asked of this statement as to whether or not the saved will be able to see those who are in hell. The obvious answer is, Yes! In our final and fixed state, we would be able to see our dearest loved one in the lake of fire and be able to say, “The judge of all the earth has done right!” In our finite human state we could never bear such a sight. The awesome closing of this marvelous book of prophecy is a reminder to every believer of our responsibility to personal witnessing and soul-winning. There is a real hell to be avoided, and all those who do not receive Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour shall go there. Of these awesome words, S. C. Thexton, Isaiah 40–66, pp. 154–155, said “They remind us that from the gate of Heaven there is a road to Hell, and that before every man there lies the choice between the way of life and the way of death.”
Thus, the book of Isaiah ends much as it began, with a message of both impending doom and potential deliverance. In this greatest of the Old Testament prophets we see one recurring theme: Jesus Christ, the Virgin’s son, Immanuel, the Branch of the Lord, the Mighty God, the Prince of Peace, the coming Messiah, the Suffering Servant, the glorious King! “To him give all the prophets witness …” (Acts 10:43).
KJV Bible Commentary. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1994, S. 1423

66:22-24. Israel will be as enduring as the new heavens and the new earth (see comments on 65:17). All mankind (i.e., people from all nations) will worship the Lord, bowing down before Him. As Isaiah had frequently written, these righteous ones will contrast greatly with those who rebelled (pāša‘; see comments on 1:2) against the Lord . They will suffer eternal torment (cf. Mark 9:48). This awesome way in which the majestic Book of Isaiah concludes points to the need for unrepentant people to turn to the Lord, the only God, the Holy One of Israel.
Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 1:1121

The good news is that a person can escape these eternal fires of hell by putting his or her faith in the Savior, the Servant of the Lord that Isaiah has described so winsomely in so many of his prophecies.
For most of our readers, who have already received Christ as their Savior, the Book of Isaiah is great prophecy and great poetry—certainly among the finest in the OT. But it would be a shame if that were all. We are meant to apply this book to our daily lives and practice God’s good pleasure.
We close with a practical exhortation from the devout English Bible scholar, W. E. Vine:
MacDonald, William ; Farstad, Arthur: Believer's Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1995, S. Is 66:24

Luther:

Their worm shall not die. They have been consigned to eternal fire. This text, known well enough from Mark 9:48, states that the ungodly Jews are condemned forever. They have their existence here as dead bodies. So we see an unquenchable fire and an undying worm. The bite of the conscience is in truth that worm. Sin is the worm that bites day and night. Afterwards comes the fire. And they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. The damned are a nauseating and revolting sight to the believers, like the Jews, papists, and Enthusiasts. Final conclusion: Let those who will not believe depart into these endless ills of which the prophet speaks.
Luther, Martin: Pelikan, Jaroslav Jan (Hrsg.) ; Oswald, Hilton C. (Hrsg.) ; Lehmann, Helmut T. (Hrsg.): Luther's Works, Vol. 17 : Lectures on Isaiah: Chapters 40-66. Saint Louis : Concordia Publishing House, 1999, c1972 (Luther's Works 17), S. 17:415-416

Their worm … is not quenched depicts eternal punishment (48:22; 57:20)
Radmacher, Earl D. ; Allen, Ronald Barclay ; House, H. Wayne: The Nelson Study Bible : New King James Version. Nashville : T. Nelson Publishers, 1997, S. Is 66:24

(66:24) as a perpetual reminder that God’s judgment on the wicked is everlasting
Elwell, Walter A.: Evangelical Commentary on the Bible. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Book House, 1996, c1989 (Baker Reference Library 3), S. Is 66:18

 

[createdtoworship]

LH is correct
Hell comes from the Anglo word 'Hellan' meaning "to cover", the word was coined about 800 a.d.

the Rich man was Judah who had 5 brothers; of the same Mom.
put that in context and the story is much deeper than just sending someone to burn in Gehenna for being rich.


Judah and his brothers were being cast out of the Bosom of Abraham while the Gentile(considered poor by Jews) Lazarus was going in.

it was a parable and not to be taken literally which would negate the scripture prophecy about all Israel being saved.

.

you don't need this story to prophecy about israel being saved as other scripture already do that.

King James Bible Romans 11:26
"And so all Israel shall be saved"

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Another example of Jesus borrowing ideas from a belief to explain what he was trying to do would be the gates of hell, or the gates of hades.

Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


The gates of hades was the nickname for this place called Caesarea Phillipi.

There was this cave in Caesarea Phillipi that had a spring in it. Water would pour into this spring. A lot of people started to believe that this spring was actually the entry point and exit point for spirits in this world. So in those days, it was one of the major hot spots for worshiping pagan gods, particularly the god Pan, who was the god of fertility. People would worship Pan and ask Pan for children by sacrificing goats to him at this spot, as well as having sex out in the open. Not only would they have sex out in the open, they would often have sex with the goats too. It was a pretty rowdy bunch to say the least.

So Jesus takes his disciples here and says "Peter, upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hades will not overcome it. There are so many different ways to look at what Jesus is saying here. One way of looking at it is that he is simply saying he would conquer death on the cross. Another is that Jesus would establish believers, even among these wicked people. Another is that Jesus' message of love and redemption would not be shut out ultimately by false beliefs and false gods. Another is that Jesus wanted Peter to be the founder of the first church. However you look at it, Jesus borrowed typical beliefs about this place and about there gods in this area and used it to teach his own message.

 

[theWaris1]

you don't need this story to prophecy about israel being saved as other scripture already do that.

King James Bible Romans 11:26
"And so all Israel shall be saved"

That was my point. But the srciptures must agree if they are rightly divided.