Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Ed Bana]

The contradiction would be yours.

some of the people in this forum respond well to laundry lists, sorry you are not one of them. And besides if you give me a laundry list of verses going the other way then we have contradiction. So eternity is the best option for both. Thats how you deal with long lists.

 

[createdtoworship]

　
The real problem with words like eternal everlasting and for ever and ever is the Babylonian religious system that refuse to look outside of their man made religious box.

The seminaries keep puppeting the same old doctrines of damnations generation after generation. Occasionally you will find a Bible scholar willing to agree with the following.

A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.”　

It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived.　 God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.　

The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

seminaries aren't bad because you have a problem with the definition of aion. (one word). You have some other issues with institutions apparently.

 

[Ed Bana]

You obviously have a problem with discernment

God does not call institutions. God calls men. Never in the whole Bible did once call a institution.

Baby lon is a institution. Singular. Not plural

seminaries aren't bad because you have a problem with the definition of aion. (one word). You have some other issues with institutions apparently.

 

[createdtoworship]

I just realized that universalists define aion in reference to man alone (having a beginning) and thus not eternal. Instead of defining aion in reference to God alone who is eternal. Who wrote the Bible man or God?

 

[createdtoworship]

You obviously have a problem with discernment

God does not call institutions. God calls men. Never in the whole Bible did once call a institution.

Baby lon is a institution. Singular. Not plural

anti institutionalism is a bad disease my friend. Congregations of people are called in the scripture. We are called to unite, and serve together. Thats what congregation means. look up eclesia in the scripture it's always a group of believers together. The Greek term ἐκκλησία that in its appearances in the New Testament is usually translated as "church" basically means "assembly".[1] It appears in 2 verses of the canonical Gospel of Matthew, 24 verses of the Acts of the Apostles, 58 verses of the letters of Paul the Apostle (including therefore the earliest instances of its use in relation to a Christian body), 2 of the Letter to the Hebrews, 1 of the Epistle of James, 3 of the Third Epistle of John, and 19 of the Book of Revelation. It's also what organized religion is (an ecclesia.)

 

[Ed Bana]

You want to play church no one is stopping you.

Sorry about the landry list just trying to show you God's pattern. I do not expect you to respond to each verse just see they are all saying the same thing when it comes to seeing, or hearing spiritually.

God’s deep truth are heard by individuals (singular) not by systems of religions (plural ears). Hearing is not with natural ears, carnal ears, or even religious ears.



The elect are those who hear; the word “hear” is mentioned 46 times in the Book of Revelation. Hear singular; not plural; notice the word over comer is so often used with the word hear singular. The word see is mentioned 22 times and this has nothing to do with natural hearing and seeing,

​

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.


Revelation 2:29
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:6
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:13
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:22
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:21-22 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)
　
　
The elect of God are not all believers. The elect of God our the overcomers; only those see and hear what the spirit is saying to the out called. They are a far cry from the vast majority of believers who think because they are simply believing because they are the elect.

anti institutionalism is a bad disease my friend. Congregations of people are called in the scripture. We are called to unite, and serve together. Thats what congregation means. look up eclesia in the scripture it's always a group of believers together.

 

[Ed Bana]

The Greek word for "assembling" is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super- imposition - that which is above, higher than, highest, upon.

SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI- SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS! It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place. It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRIT, as Paul also testified, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6). Tens of thousands, yea, tens of millions of believers gather together in "church buildings" every Sunday morning, and because they make the effort to get out of bed, get the family ready, and drive off to a warm pew, they are convinced that they have met the requirements of the divine fiat: "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together."

anti institutionalism is a bad disease my friend. Congregations of people are called in the scripture. We are called to unite, and serve together. Thats what congregation means. look up eclesia in the scripture it's always a group of believers together. The Greek term ἐκκλησία that in its appearances in the New Testament is usually translated as "church" basically means "assembly".[1] It appears in 2 verses of the canonical Gospel of Matthew, 24 verses of the Acts of the Apostles, 58 verses of the letters of Paul the Apostle (including therefore the earliest instances of its use in relation to a Christian body), 2 of the Letter to the Hebrews, 1 of the Epistle of James, 3 of the Third Epistle of John, and 19 of the Book of Revelation. It's also what organized religion is an ecclesia.

 

[createdtoworship]

You want to play church no one is stopping you.

Sorry about the landry list just trying to show you God's pattern. I do not expect you to respond to each verse just see they are all saying the same thing when it comes to seeing, or hearing spiritually.

God’s deep truth are heard by individuals (singular) not by systems of religions (plural ears). Hearing is not with natural ears, carnal ears, or even religious ears.



The elect are those who hear; the word “hear” is mentioned 46 times in the Book of Revelation. Hear singular; not plural; notice the word over comer is so often used with the word hear singular. The word see is mentioned 22 times and this has nothing to do with natural hearing and seeing,

​

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.


Revelation 2:29
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:6
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:13
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:22
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Revelation 3:21-22 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)
　
　
The elect of God are not all believers. The elect of God our the overcomers; only those see and hear what the spirit is saying to the out called. They are a far cry from the vast majority of believers who think because they are simply believing because they are the elect.

Jehovah's witnesses believe only 144,000 are elect. Is this your belief?

let’s examine Scripture to see what God says about His elect.

For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect [eklektos] those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect [eklektos]- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (Matthew 24:21-31).

If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, [eklektos] whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect [eklektos]--if that were possible… And he will send his angels and gather his elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens (Mark 13:20-27).

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen [eklektos] (Matthew 20:16).

"For many are invited, but few are chosen [eklektos]" (Matthew 22:14)

And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God bring about justice for his chosen [eklektos] ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:6-8)

The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen [eklektos] One" (Luke 23:35)

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all - how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen [eklektos]? It is God who justifies (Romans 8:29-33).

Greet Rufus, chosen [eklektos] in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brothers with them. Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them. Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings. I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them (Romans 16:13-17).

Therefore, as God's chosen [eklektos] people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful (Colossians 3:12-15).

I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect [eklektos] angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism (1 Timothy 5:21).

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect [eklektos], that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory (2 Timothy 2:10).

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect [eklektos] and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness (Titus 1:1)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect [eklektos] strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance (1 Peter 1:1-2).

As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen [eklektos] by God and precious to him-- you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone," and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy (1 Peter 2:4-10)

The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth--and not I only, but also all who know the truth-- because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever… The children of your chosen [eklektos] sister send greetings (2 John 1:1-2, 13).

They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen [eklektos] and faithful followers" (Revelation 17:14)

As we can see in God’s Word “eklektos” is used to refer to Jesus’ disciples, Jewish believers, Gentile believers, the angels of God, members of the Church and even for Christ Himself. Therefore, when Jesus says - “for the sake of the elect,” “to deceive even the elect” and “ they will gather his elect” - He is referring to all believers.

 

[Ed Bana]

My belief is God is first calling out his out called (Chuch) big"C", His remnant they will become overcoming sons that will rule and reign with Chrsit in the ages to come. These overcomers will become kings and Priest after the order of Melechizedek and will be used to call all the heathen people God never called.

There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Do you even know what the Tabernacle of David is?
Acts 15:16-18

Acts 15: (Amp) 17 So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

What you are totally missing is the Priesthood of God for the remainder of all heathen people. Why God would makes his overcomers Kings and Priest if there was no one to minister to. Notice all the below verses are in reference to Mt Zion (the heavenly throne)

Revelations 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.


Acts 15:16-18
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Jehovah's witnesses believe only 144,000 are elect. Is this your belief?

 

[Ed Bana]

You got a lot of great truths in this laundry list. But please put some substance to what yo are saying.

Jehovah's witnesses believe only 144,000 are elect. Is this your belief?

let’s examine Scripture to see what God says about His elect.

For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect [eklektos] those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect [eklektos]- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (Matthew 24:21-31).

If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, [eklektos] whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect [eklektos]--if that were possible… And he will send his angels and gather his elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens (Mark 13:20-27).

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen [eklektos] (Matthew 20:16).

"For many are invited, but few are chosen [eklektos]" (Matthew 22:14)

And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God bring about justice for his chosen [eklektos] ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:6-8)

The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen [eklektos] One" (Luke 23:35)

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all - how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen [eklektos]? It is God who justifies (Romans 8:29-33).

Greet Rufus, chosen [eklektos] in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brothers with them. Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them. Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings. I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them (Romans 16:13-17).

Therefore, as God's chosen [eklektos] people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful (Colossians 3:12-15).

I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect [eklektos] angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism (1 Timothy 5:21).

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect [eklektos], that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory (2 Timothy 2:10).

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect [eklektos] and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness (Titus 1:1)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect [eklektos] strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance (1 Peter 1:1-2).

As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen [eklektos] by God and precious to him-- you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone," and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy (1 Peter 2:4-10)

The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth--and not I only, but also all who know the truth-- because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever… The children of your chosen [eklektos] sister send greetings (2 John 1:1-2, 13).

They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen [eklektos] and faithful followers" (Revelation 17:14)

As we can see in God’s Word “eklektos” is used to refer to Jesus’ disciples, Jewish believers, Gentile believers, the angels of God, members of the Church and even for Christ Himself. Therefore, when Jesus says - “for the sake of the elect,” “to deceive even the elect” and “ they will gather his elect” - He is referring to all believers.

 

[createdtoworship]

My belief is God is first calling out his out called (Chuch) big"C", His remnant they will become overcoming sons that will rule and reign with Chrsit in the ages to come. These overcomers will become kings and Priest after the order of Melechizedek and will be used to call all the heathen people God never called.

There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Do you even know what the Tabernacle of David is?
Acts 15:16-18

Acts 15: (Amp) 17 So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

What you are totally missing is the Priesthood of God for the remainder of all heathen people. Why God would makes his overcomers Kings and Priest if there was no one to minister to. Notice all the below verses are in reference to Mt Zion (the heavenly throne)

Revelations 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.


Acts 15:16-18
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

What about when revelation says "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." KJV Revelation 2:11 ? Does that mean all who don't hear or overcome will go to hell? Yes. So your theory is wrong. All believers will become overcommers in faith. "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." KJV 1 John 5:4 But as far as ruling and reigning I agree with you there are only a remnant who will rule and reign. All believers will rule but as far as to what degree well that depends on works done. But heaven isn't by works.

 

[Ed Bana]

No not all believers are overcomers. I just showed this to you.

Here it is again

There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


There are three deaths in the Bible.
Physical death which all men understand.
Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1 ) which I call spiritual death or first death.

Second death. Which is first death killed by the second death. Its spiritual.

What about when revelation says "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." KJV Revelation 2:11 ? Does that mean all who don't hear or overcome will go to hell? Yes. So your theory is wrong. All believers will become overcommers in faith. "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." KJV 1 John 5:4 But as far as ruling and reigning I agree with you there are only a remnant who will rule and reign. All believers will rule but as far as to what degree well that depends on works done. But heaven isn't by works.

 

[createdtoworship]

You got a lot of great truths in this laundry list. But please put some substance to what yo are saying.

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen [eklektos]? It is God who justifies (Romans 8:29-33).

here the elect is all believers as well....

here overcommers are every child of God....

King James Bible 1 john 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[Ed Bana]

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .


There are three levels of who are called. 30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold. The 100 fold or God's firstfruits orhis elect.

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen [eklektos]? It is God who justifies (Romans 8:29-33).

here the elect is all believers as well....

 

[createdtoworship]

No not all believers are overcomers. I just showed this to you.

Here it is again

There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


There are three deaths in the Bible.
Physical death which all men understand.
Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1 ) which I call spiritual death or first death.

Second death. Which is first death killed by the second death. Its spiritual.

no, it's not spiritual. Just because you don't believe in it. And secondly, overcommers are elect but not all elect are overcommers. It depends on what they are overcomming. If it's the second death, then all will overcome. But if it's something else then not all will overcome. It depends on what they are overcomming. Some will recieve eternal life, some recieve rewards, others recieve a crown. But these are not things that happen during the millenial reign necessarily, these happen at the bema seat of Christ primarily.

 

[Ed Bana]

Nice opinion.

Lets look at some scriptural facts about the Book of Revelation. The most spiritual book ever known to man and one of the most misunderstood by the carnal man made religious systems you defend.

John was in Spirit on the Lord's day.

No where does it say no it is not spiritual like you stated...
In fact no where does it say John was being literal in any sense of the word.

So unless you can give me chapter and verse that John was being literal in any sense of the word I will believe God's Word not you opinion.

no, it's not spiritual. Just because you don't believe in it. And secondly, overcommers are elect but not all elect are overcommers. It depends on what they are overcomming. If it's the second death, then all will overcome. But if it's something else then not all will overcome. It depends on what they are overcomming. Some will recieve eternal life, some recieve rewards, others recieve a crown. But these are not things that happen during the millenial reign necessarily, these happen at the bema seat of Christ primarily.

 

[Ed Bana]

no, it's not spiritual.

Just because you don't believe in it. And secondly, overcommers are elect but not all elect are overcommers.

Chapter and verse please??

It depends on what they are overcomming.

Chapter and verse please??

If it's the second death, then all will overcome.

Yes all will go thought the second death. The reason the overcomers will not be hurt by the second death is they have already gone thought the process so it will not hurt them.

But if it's something else then not all will overcome. It depends on what they are overcomming.

Where did you get this?

Some will recieve eternal life, some recieve rewards, others recieve a crown. But these are not things that happen during the millenial reign necessarily, these happen at the bema seat of Christ primarily.

Your all over the place how about some scripture??

 

[createdtoworship]

no, it's not spiritual.



Chapter and verse please??

Chapter and verse please??



Yes all will go thought the second death. The reason the overcomers will not be hurt by the second death is they have already gone thought the process so it will not hurt them.



Where did you get this?



Your all over the place how about some scripture??

Just read revelations all the way through.

Chapter 3 verse 5 states that those who don't overcome will be blotted out of the book of life. Is this spiritual too? How can this apply to non overcoming believers?

also in chapter 2 verse 7 it says that those who don't overcome will not be able to eat of the tree of life and live forever. How can this apply to non overcoming believers?

so how do you answer those, is the tree of life spiritual? I don't think so.

 

[Ed Bana]

Lets start with the Book of This beautiful truth has been ably elucidated in a splendid article by Terry and Tykie Crisp, a portion of which I quote: "The first chapter of the Gospel of John opens by saying, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God...in Him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shines into darkness: and the darkness comprehended it not...AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US (Jn. 1:1-14).

By revelation of the Spirit, John declared that the Word of God was made manifest for all the world to read. Within this glorious Word was Life; Life with the potential of illuminating and enlightening the darkened, death-filled realm of men. This Word, Holy Record of the Life of God, was not written upon stone, papyrus, or golden parchment; but the Word was MADE FLESH TO DWELL AMONG MEN!

Unlike any other book in the world, this 'Book' was alive and the name of this 'Book' was JESUS! 'Wherefore when He comes into the world, He says, Sacrifice and offerings you would not, but a body you have prepared me. Then said I, Lo, I come (IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME,) to do Your will, O God' (Heb. 10:7).

"For thirty long years, this glorious Book was being written. During this time, He was virtually unrecognized for what He was! 'He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not' (Jn. 1:10). Though He was 'prepared before the face of all people' (Lk. 2:31), no one could 'open the Book', so to speak, and 'read' into His life. Contrary to the old adage, 'You can tell a book by its cover', He was a different story altogether!

Even those closest to Him had absolutely no idea what was going on inside of Him! He remained in obscurity, from the curious gaze of men, until the appointed time of the Father. He was God's great enigma to mankind! Line upon line, and precept upon precept, He increased in wisdom and stature, 'waxing strong in spirit, and filled with wisdom' (Lk. 2:40,52). Through the common, day-to-day experiences of life, He was steadily learning obedience, and was being made perfect through the things He suffered.

There was not a single temptation faced by man in which He in some way was not tested; not an area that went untouched. He was 'in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin' (Heb. 4:15). He was challenged and confronted, in one form or another, with every issue that would face mankind. Every trial, every test, and every temptation He faced simply served to complete another chapter in the 'Book'; for as He overcame them, the lesson was then recorded in His spirit, and sealed. Unbeknown to the world around Him, He was being prepared for the Throne.
Jesus is the Book of Life

Not all men are being called now.
And then we have the glorious promise that "As in (Greek, in, with, by) Adam all die, even so in (in, with, by) Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order." (1 Corinthians 15:22-23).

NT:1722
en (en); a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between NT:1519 and NT:1537); "in," at, (up-) on, by, etc.:

God is not calling all people to salvation now; but each in their own order.
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.　 But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23).　

There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST.　 The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam.　 But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself.　 From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

Just read revelations all the way through.

Chapter 3 verse 5 states that those who don't overcome will be blotted out of the book of life. Is this spiritual too? How can this apply to non overcoming believers?

.

 

[Ed Bana]

　The flaming sword of the Cherubim is the word of the law which is a ministration of condemnation and death. It keeps men out of Eden, away from the tree of life! But the sword out of the mouth of God’s Christ is a living sword that excelled in glory as the ministration of Life!
　
Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of
God’s word is "QUICK." Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING!

"For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it
active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any
two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified). Ah, yes, here is the sword that
conquers the death in us and GIVES LIFE! As it is written, "It is the
spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing…for the letter
killeth, but the spirit giveth life!" (Jn. 6:63; II Cor. 3:6). The sword
of the Spirit is the quickening, energizing, life-giving WORD OF GOD!
I shall not hesitate to explain to you, that there are two aspects of the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word — the Logos —

THE LIVING, CREATIVE WORD! But there is also that word which Paul calls "the letter." The letter is the outer hull, the record and history, the laws
and commandments, the rules and regulations, the types, shadows and
figures, the external ordinances, rituals, ceremonies, and feasts; the
visible form of the word which tells us, in terms understandable by the
natural mind, many things about the Living Word, Jesus Christ. "
Christ is the Word, the Living Word, and IN HIM IS LIFE!

Moses received a word from God. Many, many scriptures confirm that it was the very Lord Himself who spoke to Moses giving him the laws, commandments, judgments, and ordinances. Therefore it is called "the law of the Lord." Yet Paul, in speaking of this word from God, calls it "the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones." Then he further designates it "the ministration of condemnation." You, see, the law could only condemn! The only way the law could give life was if one perfectly kept it, but for every broken law there was a penalty. And no one was ever able to keep it! "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Therefore the law with all of its commandments, ceremonies, rituals, sacrifices, and observances is a dead word, it is form without essence, law without life, shadow without substance, chaff without kernel, it is the letter that killeth! It is "a word" about "The Word" and therefore shuts men up unto the dominion of death. It should not be difficult to understand that as Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God, the sword of the Spirit that quickens, so is the Letter of the Word a deadly sword, killing rather than quickening. Ah, two words and two swords! The flaming sword of the Cherubim is the word of the law which is a ministration of condemnation and death. It keeps men out of Eden, away from the tree of life! But the sword out of the mouth of God’s Christ is a living sword that excelled in glory as the ministration of Life!

1 John 2:27​

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


So yes these things in the Word of God are highly spiritual not literal and not carnal. 　
　
　
　

Just read revelations all the way through.


also in chapter 2 verse 7 it says that those who don't overcome will not be able to eat of the tree of life and live forever. How can this apply to non overcoming believers?

so how do you answer those, is the tree of life spiritual? I don't think so.