Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Ed Bana]

I want to post the first par of a Book written by Ray Prinzing called Revelation a Positive Book which can be found on line.



　　　　 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John: Who bare record of the Word of God, and of the Testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.　 Blessed is he that read, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written　 therein: for the time is at hand." (Revelation 1:1-3).
　　　
Blessed is he that reads, hears, and keeps the message of this Book. There is a special blessing reserved for those who do so, yet so often people have shunned the Book, either because it was veiled to their understanding (though it is declared to be a revelation), or else they thought it was too negative--- filled with images of beasts, woes, and the various judgments of God.　 But as the holy Spirit causes His light to shine upon the truth, again and again we find it to be a positive message of hope and victory.
　　
Furthermore, note the phrase, "For the time is at hand..."　 He does not relegate this to a far-off future series of events, but it becomes experientially worked out in each of us as He draws us to Himself, conforming us to His image.　 As Jesus stated, "The　 hour comes, and now is..." (John 4:23).　 For those whom He is drawing to Himself as the firstfruits of His new creation order, it is not only coming, but already begun.　 The in working　 process has started, and must continue until it is fully consummated, to His glory.　 So, for the multitudes it is coming, for the firstfruits it is on now, as they "taste the good Word of God, and the powers of the world (age) to come.'' (Hebrews 6:5).
　　　　　　　　

It has been said, there are five ways to interpret the Book:

1) Historically, it all happened a long time ago.
2) Present, in our now, but mostly negative, as people try to fit the events of their day into its pages, wondering if these certain happenings fulfill the judgment and doom they have been told is to come, to signify times end, though they hope they can escape from it all.
3) Futuristically, it will all happen out there some time.
4) Idealistically, poetically, using mental images from which to form your ideals and values, etc.
5) All of the above, practicing parts of each. Perhaps that is how many view it today.　

Some of it is viewed historically, some of it is viewed prophetically, and betimes men look to see if it verifies the time table that "the end is upon us.''　 While occasionally　 passages are used　 to draw images and pictures that men apply to their day, as they interpret various points and fit them together.
　　
Now we would present a different approach, as the holy Spirit quickens various passages, and gives us a POSITIVE VIEW, with our Lord Jesus Christ as the Center of our focus, for this is declared to be, "A REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST."　 This phrase tells it all. The book was written for one purpose, to be the revelation of a Person, not of historical events, nor of future doom and negativism. Every woe, every vial, every thunder, etc. has but one purpose, TO BRING FORTH THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.　 All that is written of beasts, images, marks, Babylon, etc. are simply issues that are exposed because of the Light.　 Every revelation of Him will expose the darkness, not to bring terror, but to swallow it up into the Light. "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world though Him might be saved." (John 3:17).　 SALVATION IN FULL is the ultimate victory　 to be brought forth. "Behold, I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5). Amen!

　　 Furthermore, God "sent and signified it," that is, He revealed the message through signs and symbols. They are not literal, HE IS THE REALITY! The signs and symbols are but a means to an end, not an end in themselves--they　 point to Him, revealing more of His nature, His character, His purpose, that He might be glorified, for the fulfillment is found in HIM. This is a book of positive spiritual realities communicated by the means of these picturesque scenes and events. You will not read of their fulfillment in the Daily News, because they are not speaking of world events. This is the unveiling of a Person who has not yet been seen in all His power and majesty.　 But as He is revealed TO US, and IN US, you will see these things fulfilled in a people who are becoming ONE IN HIM--thus it is a revelation of Him, albeit also being in a people who share and manifest His glory.

 

[Soulgazer]

Revelation is an insight into the mind of it's author, a member of the Apocalyptic Messianic Jewish sect wishing death and destruction on Emperor Domitian and his cronies. It is totally out of Harmony with the nature of Christ, who came not to condemn the world but to save it.

People have been twisting it's meaning for centuries, trying to milk some supernatural prophesy or meaning out of it. It's rubbish.

"And those who say these things will ask about dreams. And if they say that a dream came from a demon worthy of their error, then they shall be given perdition instead of incorruption."~Gnostic Peter

 

[Ed Bana]

The Book of Revelation is the most spiritual Book ever written. Notice I use God's Word not my opinion to show us why it is written. John was in Spirit on the Lords Day. What you have shown us is your opinion not based on God's Word.

Revelation is an insight into the mind of it's author, a member of the Apocalyptic Messianic Jewish sect wishing death and destruction on Emperor Domitian and his cronies. It is totally out of Harmony with the nature of Christ, who came not to condemn the world but to save it.

People have been twisting it's meaning for centuries, trying to milk some supernatural prophesy or meaning out of it. It's rubbish.

"And those who say these things will ask about dreams. And if they say that a dream came from a demon worthy of their error, then they shall be given perdition instead of incorruption."~Gnostic Peter

 

[LutheranMafia]

The Greek word for "assembling" is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super- imposition - that which is above, higher than, highest, upon.

SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI- SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS! It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place. It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRIT, as Paul also testified, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6). Tens of thousands, yea, tens of millions of believers gather together in "church buildings" every Sunday morning, and because they make the effort to get out of bed, get the family ready, and drive off to a warm pew, they are convinced that they have met the requirements of the divine fiat: "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together."

This made me curious so I checked Strong's lexicon and this is what I got:

Strongs # Translit. Pronunciation English Equivalent
H6116עֲצָרָה `atsarah ats·ä·rä'solemn assembly, solemn meeting, assembly
H6951קָהֵל qahal kä·häl'congregation, assembly, company, multitude
H6952קְהִלָּה qĕhillahkeh·hil·lä'congregation, assembly
H5475סוֹד cowd sōdesecret, counsel, assembly, inward
H5712עֵדָה `edah ā·dä'congregation, company, assembly, multitude, people, swarm
H4150מוֹעֵד mow`ed mō·ād'congregation, feast, season, appointed, time, assembly, solemnity, solemn, days, sign, synagogues
H4186מוֹשָׁב mowshab mō·shäv'habitation, dwellings, seat, dwelling, dwellingplace, dwell, places, sitting, assembly, situation, sojourning
Greek Results (New Testament)
Strongs # Translit. Pronunciation English Equivalent
G1577ἐκκλησία ekklēsiaek-klā-sē'-ä church, assembly
G3831πανήγυρις panēgyrispä-nā'-gü-rēsgeneral assembly
G4864συναγωγή synagōgēsün-ä-gō-gā'synagogue, congregation, assembly


Episynagoge is not there (what is Strong's number for it?), but there are a number of references to general religious assemblies.

 

[LutheranMafia]

It is totally out of Harmony with the nature of Christ, who came not to condemn the world but to save it.

Revelation doesn't condemn the whole world. It only condemns evil. There is a lot of evil in the world and in the Apocolypse it will all be washed away. It brings me a lot of hope, but you seem to approach it with a sense of dread.

 

[Soulgazer]

The Book of Revelation is the most spiritual Book ever written. Notice I use God's Word not my opinion to show us why it is written. John was in Spirit on the Lords Day. What you have shown us is your opinion not based on God's Word.

Christ is God's word. All you have shown me is your willingness to worship a book. Christ used reason, to show the error of scripture, and scripture to show the error of blind belief.

 

[Soulgazer]

Revelation doesn't condemn the whole world. It only condemns evil. There is a lot of evil in the world and in the Apocolypse it will all be washed away. It brings me a lot of hope, but you seem to approach it with a sense of dread.

No more than I dread people basing a belief on "Hansel and Gretal". But it's your trip, and if you find comfort in it, what the hay.

 

[Ed Bana]

That Book (Bible) with God's Spirit of Truth is the only God's Word we have to understand what Christ is saying. I do not worship the Bible I discern it thoroughly. But I understand the Word of God which is Christ is in that book you condemn is the Word of God.


Unless we just take your word for it and that will never hppen.

Christ is God's word. All you have shown me is your willingness to worship a book. Christ used reason, to show the error of scripture, and scripture to show the error of blind belief.

 

[Soulgazer]

That Book (Bible) with God's Spirit of Truth is the only God's Word we have to understand what Christ is saying. I do not worship the Bible I discern it thoroughly. But I understand the Word of God which is Christ is in that book you condemn is the Word of God.


Unless we just take your word for it and that will never hppen.

I don't condemn it. I love it. I love it enough to tell the truth about it. It has Christ in it, thematically, as it highlights the highest of human spiritual aspirations and is perfectly capable of of leading us to the Christ within ourselves. However, no part of it was written and signed by Jesus Himself, nor were any of the Gospels written by eye witnesses. They are thematically true, but factually suspect, and certainly if we go back into the Old Testament we see crimes committed in the name of God to thwart any condemnation of the individuals committing the various thefts, rapes and mass murders.

Word of God, though? No, though it is a marker on our way to the word of God.

 

[Ed Bana]

You are judging it on you human logic and obviously do not know its depth. I am not a fan of the Bible. but God's Word is in the Bible if you let the Spirit of truth lead and guide you into all truth.

I don't condemn it. I love it. I love it enough to tell the truth about it. It has Christ in it, thematically, as it highlights the highest of human spiritual aspirations and is perfectly capable of of leading us to the Christ within ourselves. However, no part of it was written and signed by Jesus Himself, nor were any of the Gospels written by eye witnesses. They are thematically true, but factually suspect, and certainly if we go back into the Old Testament we see crimes committed in the name of God to thwart any condemnation of the individuals committing the various thefts, rapes and mass murders.

Word of God, though? No, though it is a marker on our way to the word of God.

 

[Soulgazer]

You are judging it on you human logic and obviously do not know its depth. I am not a fan of the Bible. but God's Word is in the Bible if you let the Spirit of truth lead and guide you into all truth.

The Spirit of Truth is extant in us. If we trust it, and I do. I studied for years to learn not only the spiritual truths, but to learn who wrote what, why, and when. Truth is of God, therefor it is not human logic, which is used only to justify pre-exiting beliefs. "Spirit" is something living, changing, and ever unfolding. "Truth" is what is, and is too large to encompass all at once unless one is willing to follow the Spirit, and also be willing to likewise change and accept that which is continuously unfolding.

I left literalism behind me decades ago. It has nothing more to teach me. I left behind the willingness to credit anything to God just because someone else did; it's of God if it passes the Test of the Spirit of Truth, and is all that it claims to be. For if something is wrong on one account, it may be wrong on others not so easily discerned.

 

[Ed Bana]

Amen.

Here is a perfect example from the Bible that show us we need to be seekers of truth and not sit on what we know; most of these are hidden from the religious mind, carnal mind but God does reveal them to His babes/ His out called/His overcomers.


I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.


God’s deep truths a re like a river that flows the deeper you get it gets to a point walking is imposible so you need to learn to swim.

Ezekiel 47: 4Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
　
　
　
　

The Spirit of Truth is extant in us. If we trust it, and I do. I studied for years to learn not only the spiritual truths, but to learn who wrote what, why, and when. Truth is of God, therefor it is not human logic, which is used only to justify pre-exiting beliefs. "Spirit" is something living, changing, and ever unfolding. "Truth" is what is, and is too large to encompass all at once unless one is willing to follow the Spirit, and also be willing to likewise change and accept that which is continuously unfolding.

I left literalism behind me decades ago. It has nothing more to teach me. I left behind the willingness to credit anything to God just because someone else did; it's of God if it passes the Test of the Spirit of Truth, and is all that it claims to be. For if something is wrong on one account, it may be wrong on others not so easily discerned.

 

[LutheranMafia]

No more than I dread people basing a belief on "Hansel and Gretal". But it's your trip, and if you find comfort in it, what the hay.

The end times and the time of the resurrection are woven throughout the old and new testaments. You can't have any real belief in Christ or the bible at all and discount one of it's most basic tenets.

The way you spoke was coming from the belief that the end times mean the destruction of the world, which is a very shallow reading of scripture, subscribed to primarily by Fundamentalists. It is ironic that you share so much in common with a group that I am sure you would profusely disavow.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The Spirit of Truth is extant in us. If we trust it, and I do. I studied for years to learn not only the spiritual truths, but to learn who wrote what, why, and when.

I've heard you talk a lot about this, about how 1st and 2nd Timothy and 2nd Peter are fabrications from a later date. I haven't seen you provide any real evidence to support these claims and it all sounds like pure speculation to me.

When it comes down to it, I don't believe in the virgin birth. I take everything with a grain of salt, even the Bible, but your take on the Bible seems very opinionated to me rather than objective.

 

[Soulgazer]

I've heard you talk a lot about this, about how 1st and 2nd Timothy and 2nd Peter are fabrications from a later date. I haven't seen you provide any real evidence to support these claims and it all sounds like pure speculation to me.

When it comes down to it, I don't believe in the virgin birth. I take everything with a grain of salt, even the Bible, but your take on the Bible seems very opinionated to me rather than objective.

If you are interested, there is a very good starting point that will lead to more advanced scholastic opinions at Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

 

[LutheranMafia]

If you are interested, there is a very good starting point that will lead to more advanced scholastic opinions at Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

My first question when evaluating what someone says about the Bible is, what is the denomination of the author? I can't find anything on this website about what the context is for the author's POV, which makes me suspicious of his opinions.

 

[Soulgazer]

My first question when evaluating what someone says about the Bible is, what is the denomination of the author? I can't find anything on this website about what the context is for the author's POV, which makes me suspicious of his opinions.

A scholar is trained in critical thinking, which means that any and all religious prejudices are left at the door. Anyone who studies from a religious perspective projects his/her beliefs onto the evidence, which then invalidates it by trying to match evidence to a pre drawn conclusion. A good scholar does not contaminate his/her own evidence, but rather draws conclusions based on the weight of the evidence.

 

[createdtoworship]

Just read revelations all the way through.

Chapter 3 verse 5 states that those who don't overcome will be blotted out of the book of life. Is this spiritual too? How can this apply to non overcoming believers?

also in chapter 2 verse 7 it says that those who don't overcome will not be able to eat of the tree of life and live forever. How can this apply to non overcoming believers?

so how do you answer those, is the tree of life spiritual? I don't think so.

I didn't think ED bana had an argument for this scripture.

 

[Ed Bana]

You sure have not refuted one thing?

So what is your point?

Or do you NOT have one outside of a personal attack?

I didn't think ED bana had an argument for this scripture.

 

[createdtoworship]

You sure have not refuted one thing?

So what is your point?

Or do you NOT have one outside of a personal attack?

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oh just being open about our debate, nothing personal.