Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Soulgazer]

Jesus hit that point pretty well I would say.

Not surprising, as Paul knew Christ, but not Jesus.

 

[createdtoworship]

Not surprising, as Paul knew Christ, but not Jesus.

Since Paul didn't know Jesus during his earthly ministry, he must have received 1 Corinthians 11 directly from Jesus during the resurrection sighting on the road to Damascus. So He did quote Jesus, just not a lot. (HE quotes Jesus at the last supper verse 23-26) He also quotes many of the similar words of Christ just not verbatim. Philippians 3:14–I can do all things through Christ, which strengthens me. I realized that Paul was simply giving us the flip-side of what Jesus said in John 15:5–“For without Me, you can do nothing.” Without Christ we can do “nothing”–with Christ we can do “all things.” It’s two sides of the same coin.
Paul...
Romans 1:16–For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.

Jesus said something similar....
Luke 9:26–“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.”


Paul...
Romans 3:31–Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.


Jesus.....
Matthew 5:17-18–“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”

similiar teachings on divorce...

Paul...
Romans 7:2-3–For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Jesus...
Matthew 19:9–“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

Paul....
Romans 8:32–He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

Jesus...
Matthew 6:33–“But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.”

 

[createdtoworship]

Not surprising, as Paul knew Christ, but not Jesus.

Here is a link where Paul is quoting principles from Christ.....

Paul Quotes

 

[Soulgazer]

Here is a link where Paul is quoting principles from Christ.....

Paul Quotes

What I was getting to, was that Paul knew Christ, that Divinity that settled into the fleshly being that was named "Jesus" by his parents. Paul knew Christ in the same way that we are all, as Christians, expected to.

We do not live by the Law(Torah), we establish the Law(Agape). Paul was very much against living by the Torah.

Matthew was written in Antioch, which was Paul's HQ, about 40 years after Paul wrote "Galatians". The Christian Jews and Paul had two distinctly different approaches to the Law(Torah). That verse was probably a jab at Paul.

 

[createdtoworship]

What I was getting to, was that Paul knew Christ, that Divinity that settled into the fleshly being that was named "Jesus" by his parents. Paul knew Christ in the same way that we are all, as Christians, expected to.

We do not live by the Law(Torah), we establish the Law(Agape). Paul was very much against living by the Torah.

Matthew was written in Antioch, which was Paul's HQ, about 40 years after Paul wrote "Galatians". The Christian Jews and Paul had two distinctly different approaches to the Law(Torah). That verse was probably a jab at Paul.

there is no agape in that verse, He just says to establish the law not make it void.

Romans 3:31–Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

[Soulgazer]

there is no agape in that verse, He just says to establish the law not make it void.

Romans 3:31–Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

The Law, is Torah. Paul was very much against the Torah, so either he had something else in mind, or it is a later redaction by another hand.

[SIZE=-1]3:6[/SIZE]who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

[SIZE=-1]3:7[/SIZE]But if the ministration of death, written, and engraven on stones,

[SIZE=-1]3:15[/SIZE]But unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart.


There is far, far too much evidence written by Paul's own hand, to suppose that he had a sudden change of heart, and nullified all that he had written before.

 

[createdtoworship]

The Law, is Torah. Paul was very much against the Torah, so either he had something else in mind, or it is a later redaction by another hand.

[SIZE=-1]3:6[/SIZE]who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

[SIZE=-1]3:7[/SIZE]But if the ministration of death, written, and engraven on stones,

[SIZE=-1]3:15[/SIZE]But unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart.


There is far, far too much evidence written by Paul's own hand, to suppose that he had a sudden change of heart, and nullified all that he had written before.

HE was quoting JESUS regarding the law,

"I have come to fulfill not to destroy"

The law is Holy, and perfect it's US that are not.

 

[Soulgazer]

HE was quoting JESUS regarding the law,

"I have come to fulfill not to destroy"

The law is Holy, and perfect it's US that are not.

Unlikely.

[SIZE=-1]7:18[/SIZE]For there is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness [SIZE=-1]7:19[/SIZE](for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw nigh unto God.

[SIZE=-1]8:7[/SIZE]For if that first covenant(Torah) had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.

 

[createdtoworship]

Unlikely.

you don't believe in the TEN COMMANDMENTS?

they are still to be observed just not worshiped.

We are still not to murder

 

[Soulgazer]

you don't believe in the TEN COMMANDMENTS?

they are still to be observed just not worshiped.

We are still not to murder

When Paul was talking about the Law, or the old covenant he was speaking about the Torah.

This explains our viewpoint:

First, you must learn that the entire Law contained in the Pentateuch of Moses was not ordained by one legislator - I mean, not by God alone, some commandments are Moses', and some were given by other men. The words of the Savior teach us this triple division. The first part must be attributed to God alone, and his legislation; the second to Moses - not in the sense that God legislates through him, but in the sense that Moses gave some legislation under the influence of his own ideas; and the third to the elders of the people, who seem to have ordained some commandments of their own at the beginning. You will now learn how the truth of this theory is proved by the words of the Savior.
In some discussion with those who dispute with the Savior about divorce, which was permitted in the Law, he said Because of your hard-heartedness Moses permitted a man to divorce his wife; from the beginning it was not so; for God made this marriage, and what the Lord joined together, man must not seperate. [Matt 19:8] In this way he shows there is a Law of God, which prohibits the divorce of a wife from a husband, and another law, that of Moses, which permits the breaking of this yoke because of hard-heartedness. In fact, Moses lays down legislation contrary to that of God; for joining is contrary to not joining.
But if we examine the intention of Moses in giving this legislation, it will be seen that he did not give it arbitrarily or of his own accord, but by the necessity because of the weakness of those for whom the legislation was given. Since they were unable to keep the intention of God, according to which it was not lawful for them to reject their wives, with whom some of them disliked to live, and therefore were in the danger of turning to greater injustice and thence to destruction, Moses wanted to remove the cause of dislike, which was placing them in jeopardy of destruction. Therefore because of the critical circumstances, choosing a lesser evil in place of a greater, he ordained, on his own accord, a second law, that of divorce, so that if they could not observe the first, they might keep this and not turn to unjust and evil actions, through which complete destruction would be the result for them. This was his intention when he gave legislation contrary to that of God. Therefore it is indisputeable that here the law of Moses is different from the Law of God, even if we have demonstrated the fact from only one example.
The Savior also makes plain the fact that there are some traditions of the elders interwoven in the Law. For God,he says, Said, Honour your father and your mother, that it may be well with you, But you , he says addressing the elders, ...have declared as a gift to God, that by which you have nullified the Law of God through the tradition of your elders. Isaiah also proclaimed this, saying, This people honours me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, teaching precepts which are the commandments of men. [Matt 15:4-9].
Therefore it is obvious that the whole Law is divided into three parts; we find in it the legislation of Moses, of the elders, and of God himself. This division of the entire Law, as made by us, has brought to light what is true in it.~Ptolomy

 

[createdtoworship]

When Paul was talking about the Law, or the old covenant he was speaking about the Torah.

This explains our viewpoint:

you said torah, not three divisions that your essay dictates. That is another story.

 

[Soulgazer]

No, same story. Torah, or Law, is imperfect. Jer 8:8

 

[createdtoworship]

No, same story. Torah, or Law, is imperfect. Jer 8:8

psalm 19:7,

 

[Soulgazer]

Hebrews 8:7

 

[createdtoworship]

Hebrews 8:7

then according to your view there is a contradiction between psalms and hebrews. Besides every verse in psalm 119 speaks of the word of God as being sure.

 

[Soulgazer]

Of coarse there is a contradiction. It is impossible to know God except through Christ.

 

[createdtoworship]

Of coarse there is a contradiction. It is impossible to know God except through Christ.

nope I'd rather believe my way (no contradiction)

 

[Soulgazer]

So you do not believe in(follow) Christ?

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

nope I'd rather believe my way (no contradiction)

Its impossible to believe there is no contradiction here. Hebrews 8:7 and Jeremiah 8:8 directly clash with Psalm 19:7

For there to be no contradiction would require fancy footwork of dancing around what the text is saying. How do you interpret these three verses that no contradiction exists between them?

 

[Timothew]

adjusting the meanings of verses to suit the whole of scripture, otherwise you just have too many contradictions. It's what systematic theology does. How do you prove the trinity? You can't in just one verse. So you need to adjust it toward the verses that you can use. But in your situation you are doing it the wrong way. How do you prove a pre tribulation rapture? You can't in one verse you need systematic theology.

The trouble is that you start with a preconceived conclusion, and then adjust the meanings of verses to fit that conclusion. That is called eisegesis and it is the wrong way go go about bible study. You should go into the scriptures and allow the scriptures to inform you about what they mean.

How do you prove pre-trib rapture? The same way you prove eternal torment in hell, by assuming it is true and then "adjusting" the meaning of any verse that proves that it isn't true.

How do you prove the trinity? By carefully studying what the bible says about God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.