Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[LutheranMafia]

I believe that to go for non-Christians who did not commit blasphemy against God.

Come again?

Those that do wither immediately.

It is not entirely clear what you are trying to say here, but if it is that non-Christians don't go to Hell simply for disbelief then I believe this is supported by scripture. (Matthew 12:32)

That is my theology, and there is a lot of gears in it's workings. It's not something I just whipped out of shallow thought such as this pagan hell that just about any other religion with an idea of hell shares.

Hinduism has no connection to paganism, it is far older than Judaism even, yet it has the same teachings about the damnation of demonic people. Buddhism doesn't even have a concrete belief in God and yet it believes that evil people reincarnate as "hungy ghosts" where they are lost forever.

 

[Hillsage]

I certainly agree that we all have demons assigned to us, but unlike angels, demons can be destroyed.

I'm aware of "binding" and "casting out of strongmen/spirits" but know of no scripture saying we can destroy them...only the "strongholds" of thinking that they live in, in us can we destroy IMO.

So it isn't necessarily the same demon that is assigned to us our entire life. Infact, if you are spiritually successful you will have a whole menagerie of demons parade through your life at various times as each successive wave gets blown away.

I believe there is one good and one bad that is assigned to you for your life. o One guardian from God, and one familiar from the devil. I admit I can't prove that though. The other demons we accrue are either because of "iniquities from the fathers" and from opening spiritual doors we shouldn't.

But let me get you straight here, you do not believe in an afterlife?

I do, but sometimes when you are 'jumping' on some of the others (Timothew) I wonder if we have the same definition in mind. Define afterlife?

The unintended thrust of your argument is that I should go back to my atheism before I believed that was a real experience of Heaven.

Any thrust would certainly be unintended on my part. I'm not going to questioning the validity of your experience...only your evaluation of that experience.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Originally Posted by Sum1sGruj

I believe that to go for non-Christians who did not commit blasphemy against God.​

Come again?

Blasphemy against God is an unforgivable sin. Hitler did not make it. Bin Laden did not make it. They both used God to endorse their monstrosities.

Non-Christians, in my theology, go through a phase after death in which they must let go of life and accept the truth for what it is (which is much more then acknowledging God, one can bet that). This can be either pleasant or unpleasant depending on the will of the person.

This explains the wandering and darkness of those who fail and eventually become lost in what I sum up as eventually oblivion, which is death in any practical sense.

Hinduism has no connection to paganism, it is far older than Judaism even, yet it has the same teachings about the damnation of demonic people. Buddhism doesn't even have a concrete belief in God and yet it believes that evil people reincarnate as "hungy ghosts" where they are lost forever.

Jews do not believe in Hell. Hell is the English term for Hades, which is common ground for the dead. The verses are punned and do not necessarily point to such a Hell, whereas pagan religions commonly made Hell seem a horrible wasteland of torment and eternal unrest.
All that hurts the common idea of Hell alone, and it further concludes my theology on the matter, though I cannot actually say it is the actual truth because we really do not know until we die.

 

[Soulgazer]

Isn't that what Christians are supposed to do?

No. A Christian is supposed to "believe" in the original connotation of the word, which is "follow". We do the best we can with what we have.

This sub discussion is extremely relevant to the modern concept of hell. Part of "believing", is searching out the truth in all things. The "Comforter" is supposed to be the spirit of Truth, after all.

The whole truth about the fiery version of Hell, is that it is a result of Hellenization. As several people have pointed out, consciousness of any kind after death was a concept that just did not exist in Temple Judaism, therefor trying to ferret a meaning out of an Old Testament verse can only serve to obfuscate an already difficult subject.

As to the Shade summoned up in Samuel, we just don't have any idea how the author of that verse viewed the concept, nor do we have any way of knowing. It's a little thing that drives translators bonkers called "speech idioms". "Ghost" can and has meant many different things over succeeding generations, and we are talking about hundreds of generations. That the verse exists is an aberration, an insight into the Hebrew culture outside of Temple Judaism.

 

[createdtoworship]

the weight of an empty floppy disk is .8 ounce. But a completely full one is still .8 ounce. Software has no mass, but controls the way the machine operates.

The mass of the floppy disk is .8 ounce, and will remain .8 ounce regardless of whether its individual magnetic particles are charged in a positive or negative manner. It's the pattern of neg (0) and pos (1) polarity of the existing particles already on the disk that make up what we call "software", not whether the disk is empty (which it is not) or full (also, which it is not)

the soul is just the software of the human body...it's information in the neurons

all non-material entities (e.g. information,
consciousness, intelligence and will) are massless and thus
have zero weight. Information is always based on an idea;
it is thus also massless and does not arise from physical
or chemical processes.

a quote from an essay on information
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j...3_2_96-102.pdf

time is the fourth dimension (a physical property)

so the soul is outside of time

YouTube - ‪Beyond Time and Space with Chuck Missler‬‏

so if the soul is outside of time, and eternal. Hell must be as well. (eternal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7M6LqEAukg&feature=player_embedded#at=28

 

[Hillsage]

They are "children" of Satan as opposed to children of God. When you turn a light on it always creates shadows. God is the father of all spirits but, "the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it [put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is unreceptive to it]."

PRO 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

The spirit of man and "the light that lighteh every man" (eg. candle), didn't come from the devil.

To be the child of something means that you were created by that something.

I just googled "child of the" and these are options that popped up child of the-, earth, dark, moon, universe, 80's ect. ect. IOW children shaped/influenced by something, but certainly not created by it. And every verse talking about the Devil as a father also speaks about actions/character ect. that are not from the influence of God. They are things the devil influenced someone to do/be. I will have to stay with scripture, He is "God of the spirits of ALL flesh" and is the "Father of spirits". Who was the Father of Satan?

Just as turning on a light creates shadows. But the shadows are not of the light.

Neither are shadows 'the dark'. Dark is absence of light. All men had light from God in them

But there are numerous other verses that clearly indicate that Satan is the father of dark spirits.

Quote one, none come to mind.

Read the whole verse:

Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die.
​

The Bible is speaking in that paternalistic manner, "I brought you into this world, I can take you out.

The part I didn't quote didn't change why I quoted it. God is the Father of ALL souls. That agrees with the scriptures saying he is the Father of all spirits. Souls living or dying wasn't based upon who these souls father/creator WAS...Whoever 'fathered' what that soul DID determined life/death.

But they are being thrown out into the Outer Darkness where they will "wander... for eternity".

outer darkness is in the NT three times and nothing is said of a time frame. What are you quoting; "wander...for eternity"?

These are all Old Testament references to furnaces at a time when the Jews had no notion of Hellfire.

BINGO you are absolutley right. Now figure out WHY they never knew anything about HELL or HELLFIRE and you may become a Christian universalist. Well I can at least hope the best for you...can't I LM?

They were thinking of the tempering of metal. Funny how the New Testament never compares Hell-fire to the tempering of metal.

The fire in those OT verses was no more literal than is the fire that tests our 'gold metal' faith according to the NT.

1PE 1:6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The purpose of fire for God is always to purify/purge never to just torture without purpose.

 

[scrofford]

Nothing is worthy of eternal torment, not even Hitler.
The very idea is completely absurd, and is more pagan then biblical.

There is literally nothing a human being is capable of doing that merits burning alive forever. Even if someone builds a nuclear missile for ever square mile of the Earth and fires them away, it is still not worth such.

The idea of Hell is a wishful aspect of revenge for evil, and the idea is too much. It's just ridiculous, actually. Dying is punishment enough. You simply just seize along with your monstrosities.

Hell has less to do with what a human being has done on this earth and MORE to do with their sin nature. The idea as you call it of Hell is not an idea at all but was brought about and is talked about much in the Bible (Old and New Testament).

The sin nature that resides in us from birth because of the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden so long ago is what condemns us. God cannot stand sin (any) in His sight. He is a Holy God.

The good news is that God became man and paid the penalty of sin in our place. God doesn't send people to Hell. People choose to go there by not accepting the free gift of salvation that is offered through Jesus Christ.

So saying the idea of Hell is more pagan than Biblical is to err. Again, the Bible has much to say about Hell. You really need to check it out.

 

[Mikecpking]

the weight of an empty floppy disk is .8 ounce. But a completely full one is still .8 ounce. Software has no mass, but controls the way the machine operates.

The mass of the floppy disk is .8 ounce, and will remain .8 ounce regardless of whether its individual magnetic particles are charged in a positive or negative manner. It's the pattern of neg (0) and pos (1) polarity of the existing particles already on the disk that make up what we call "software", not whether the disk is empty (which it is not) or full (also, which it is not)

the soul is just the software of the human body...it's information in the neurons

all non-material entities (e.g. information,
consciousness, intelligence and will) are massless and thus
have zero weight. Information is always based on an idea;
it is thus also massless and does not arise from physical
or chemical processes.

a quote from an essay on information
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j...3_2_96-102.pdf

time is the fourth dimension (a physical property)

so the soul is outside of time

YouTube - ‪Beyond Time and Space with Chuck Missler‬‏

so if the soul is outside of time, and eternal. Hell must be as well. (eternal)

YouTube - ‪Time a Physical property‬‏

What to you is 'soul' with references to the bible , please?

 

[LutheranMafia]

I just googled "child of the" and these are options that popped up child of the-, earth, dark, moon, universe, 80's ect. ect. IOW children shaped/influenced by something, but certainly not created by it.

Funny, what I got was "child of mine" and "child of God" as the top ranking hits. As to child of the universe, we are created by this universe (at least our physical bodies are), same with the Earth. To be the child of Satan is to be a dark spirit without light.

Neither are shadows 'the dark'. Dark is absence of light. All men had light from God in them

That is not what 1 Thessalonians 5:5 says.

You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
​

If we are children of the light then the Satanic spirits being spoken of here are children of the darkness.

Quote one, none come to mind.

I just did.

The part I didn't quote didn't change why I quoted it. God is the Father of ALL souls. That agrees with the scriptures saying he is the Father of all spirits. Souls living or dying wasn't based upon who these souls father/creator WAS...Whoever 'fathered' what that soul DID determined life/death.

So how does one come back from soul death?

outer darkness is in the NT three times and nothing is said of a time frame. What are you quoting; "wander...for eternity"?

Jude 1:13

...twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
​

The purpose of fire for God is always to purify/purge never to just torture without purpose.

But this fire is not a tempering fire. Matthew 24:51 says, "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." In other words their spirit is ripped apart. That is not a purifying fire, that is a decomposing fire.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I'm aware of "binding" and "casting out of strongmen/spirits" but know of no scripture saying we can destroy them...only the "strongholds" of thinking that they live in, in us can we destroy IMO.

I'm speaking from personal experience, but I think my point of view is hinted at by verses that talk about the death of the soul, the second death and the fact that spirits that are cast into the Outer Darkness are "cut to pieces" Matthew 24:51.

I do, but sometimes when you are 'jumping' on some of the others (Timothew) I wonder if we have the same definition in mind. Define afterlife?

Afterlife - the state of consciousness immediately after death. That is either in paradise/Heaven, as ghosts trapped on Earth, or in Hell.

Also, as to 1 Samuel 28, when the witch of Endor calls up the spirit of Samuel, not only does the Bible say that it was Samuel by attributing the quotes of the spirit to Samuel, and not to some other kind of spirit, but the witch of Endor throws herself down to the ground in fear when she sees him, and when Saul asks her what she sees she says Elohim, which in the context would indicate an angelic spirit.

Also, there are the numerous exhortations to not contact the spirits of the dead. In none of these cases does it say that the real reason we aren't suppose to do it is that there would be a deceiving demon coming instead. While I agree that this is possible, in particular with a weejee board, if it were always the case I would expect the numerous references to warning against contacting the dead to mention this. Instead, in not a single case does the Bible say anything about demonic spirits.

Any thrust would certainly be unintended on my part. I'm not going to questioning the validity of your experience...only your evaluation of that experience.

How is it do you think that a deceiving spirit could impart a sense of intense bliss associated with a false vision of Heaven, and why would a deceiving spirit want to strengthen someone's faith in Heaven and God? That is completely contradictory, it doesn't make any sense, there is absolutely nothing for a demonic spirit to gain in doing so, even if they had the power to do so, which I do not believe.

 

[LutheranMafia]

In response to Lord H, I just found another OT reference to Hell-fire:

I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.
Daniel 7:11
​

 

[Hillsage]

Funny, what I got was "child of mine" and "child of God" as the top ranking hits. As to child of the universe, we are created by this universe (at least our physical bodies are), same with the Earth.

I typed in "child of the" you typed "child of". When I did "child of" then "child of Eden" was "the top ranking", then "child of mine", "child of rage", "child of god". Now, you can believe that Eden created Adam, but I don't think you do and that's why you left it out of your "top list", but I'm still gonna say God was the father of Adam. And if you believe "rage" 'created a child', I'm still gonna say rage created an action/sin in a child because rage was the father of that child's reaction and not the father of that human being.

To be the child of Satan is to be a dark spirit without light.

To be a child of Satan is to manifest Satanic actions under the influence of Satanic demons which are disembodied spirits which long to manifest in this physical world through human bodies. This is a slap in the face to the God who created them all putting His light in every man.

That is not what 1 Thessalonians 5:5 says.

You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
​

If we are children of the light then the Satanic spirits being spoken of here are children of the darkness.

1TH 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
I believe that in the verse above is talking about the "father" of actions, and you believe it is talking about 'the father of the person'. Keep your definition in mind and then compare it with your quote below.

LutheranMafia post #18; I was drunk as hell when I wrote that, so it was a little off, but yes!

So is Satan your Father LM...or was he 'the Father of your drunken action' and God is still the Father of your spirit and the light that lighteth every man including you?

So how does one come back from soul death?

It repents. Have you repented of your 'overindulgence'? Then your light is brighter.

Jude 1:13

...twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.​

I see stars every night in the blackest darkness of outer space, and you know why? Because stars give off light in themselves just like the spirit/candle of every man is of God.

But this fire is not a tempering fire. Matthew 24:51 says, "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." In other words their spirit is ripped apart. That is not a purifying fire, that is a decomposing fire.

Be a Berean LM. Look at the parallel passage in your bible concerning this very same text and read it.

LUK 12:46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

Now look up the definition of the word poorly translated as "cut him in pieces". The definition is below.

1371 dichotomeo: to bisect, i.e. (by extens.) to flog severely

To be "cut to pieces" means to "receive many lashes"...or to be flogged severely until your skin is torn. That's comparing scripture to scripture in your own bible. This definition can't be compared to yours, of some 'dismembering of a spirit as shards and being cast into the darkness of outer space'...IMO.

 

[Hillsage]

Afterlife - the state of consciousness immediately after death. That is either in paradise/Heaven, as ghosts trapped on Earth, or in Hell.

I think there is spirit consciousness (in which we related to God) which goes immediately back to heaven/God. And then there is soulish consciousness (in which we related to the world) and that will not be awakened until judgment for what that soul did on earth. It remains in soul sleep until the resurrection.

Also, as to 1 Samuel 28, when the witch of Endor calls up the spirit of Samuel, not only does the Bible say that it was Samuel by attributing the quotes of the spirit to Samuel, and not to some other kind of spirit, but the witch of Endor throws herself down to the ground in fear when she sees him, and when Saul asks her what she sees she says Elohim, which in the context would indicate an angelic spirit.

I have to agree with your points but also with Soulgazer's comments. This passage has caused both sides to use it in defense of their authority, but maybe neither side should put as much reliance as we do.

How is it do you think that a deceiving spirit could impart a sense of intense bliss associated with a false vision of Heaven, and why would a deceiving spirit want to strengthen someone's faith in Heaven and God? That is completely contradictory, it doesn't make any sense, there is absolutely nothing for a demonic spirit to gain in doing so, even if they had the power to do so, which I do not believe.

I agree, I don't think a "deceiving spirit" would. But remember I also said dreams could come from "soul"...or what the mind is dealing with subconsciously, as well as "body"...too much pizza. How old were you when you had the dream?

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

In response to Lord H, I just found another OT reference to Hell-fire:

I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.
Daniel 7:11
​

Doesn't that sound like Gehenna,the place of burning dead bodies, hell fire instead of eternal torture hell fire?

If you compare it with Revelations, it actually sounds like even Satan himself won't be tortured literally for all eternity if that's the case. He'll simply be done away with, and discarded with all the other dead.

 

[createdtoworship]

What to you is 'soul' with references to the bible , please?

The soul is our emotions and memory and intellect. To the Bible it's the part that gets saved or condemned. Our Bodies are not the only things saved.

 

[Mikecpking]

The soul is our emotions and memory and intellect. To the Bible it's the part that gets saved or condemned. Our Bodies are not the only things saved.

Then, how do you get that meaning from this verse?

DT 12:23 The soul (nephesh) of the flesh is the blood. ?

Biblically, the soul has nothing to do with intellect or mind. Rather, it is the life bound up in the body or the individual (as whole) themselves.

There is no body soul dualism in scripture.

Thry looking through the myriad of websites about this definition:

Google

 

[LutheranMafia]

How old were you when you had the dream?

Three

 

[Hillsage]

Hell has less to do with what a human being has done on this earth and MORE to do with their sin nature.

God doesn't hate the sin nature...He gave it to us. And then He gave the LAW so that sin would INCREASE.

ROM 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

ROM 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

We are bound by him to be disobedient so we will be dependent upon Him and HIS mercy to save us...all. And giving His mercy is most certainly up to him because the orthodox church sure isn't giving mercy, because they don't understand the purpose of his judgments/ways.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

The sin nature that resides in us from birth because of the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden so long ago is what condemns us. God cannot stand sin (any) in His sight. He is a Holy God.

The sin nature doesn't condemn us, sin does. God hates sin not sinners.

The good news is that God became man and paid the penalty of sin in our place.

And the penalty for sin was what?....DEATH. If the penalty for sin was ETERNAL TORTURE IN HELL then JESUS NEVER PAID THE PRICE. Pretty simple if one has knowledge/wisdom beyond that of orthodoxy.

God doesn't send people to Hell. People choose to go there by not accepting the free gift of salvation that is offered through Jesus Christ.

Nobody chooses hell, that is pure religious bunk to justify an unjustifiable punishment called eternal hell. It is simply the church trying to wash God's hands for His responsibility in creating these people knowing they would never accept Him, to begin with.

But scripture says "NO MAN SEEKETH GOD" and those in the church who think THEY FOUND THE SHEPHERD are the dumbest of the once lost sheep.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Doesn't that sound like Gehenna,the place of burning dead bodies, hell fire instead of eternal torture hell fire?

What is the difference between Gehenna and Hell? I thought Gehenna was one of the names of Hell.

If you compare it with Revelations, it actually sounds like even Satan himself won't be tortured literally for all eternity if that's the case. He'll simply be done away with, and discarded with all the other dead.

Well, no. Revelation 20:10 says, "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Since this is said immediately after he is thrown into the Lake of Fire, and then in verse 14 the Lake of Fire is called the "second death", it proves that the second death is not the death of the spirit, but that spirits live on even after the soul is destroyed.

But you have me on Daniel 7:11, I forgot that the point was to prove eternal torment in the OT rather than simply to prove the existence of Hell. Never the less I think Daniel 7:11 is fascinating because it is one of only two references to Hell-fire that I've been able to find in the OT.

 

[LutheranMafia]

ROM 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

I've seen you quote this before but I suspect that it means something slightly different than what you are saying. I don't think that sin literally increased, but rather the awareness of sin. In other words, once the law defined more offenses the people become more aware of when they were breaking the law. From an absolute perspective I think it decreased sin somewhat, not increasing it. It was just the awareness of sin that was increased.

Just a mine technicality, but I felt compelled to point out this possibility.