Let's clear up the Eschatology Scripture?

[Waterwerx]

No. Don't pull the first seals out of their context. The context is the vision of the throne room.
Notice carefully that in chapter 4 Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, when we have over a dozen verses telling us He should have been there.

Then in chapter 5 John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, appearing as a lamb having been slain. This clearly set the timing of these events at 32 AD. (or 33 if you don't like 32) The first thing Jesus does having ascended, is get the scroll and begin breaking the seals. You cannot find 2000 years between any of those verses, because it is simply NOT THERE.

In other words, by leaving the first seals in their context, they were broken around 32 AD.
The first seal is to represent the CHURCH taking the GOSPEL to the world.
Seals 2, 3 and 4, the Red horse, the Black horse and the Pale horse are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. But God limited him (those three horses and riders) to 1/4 of the earth. We can be sure that 1/4 was centered on Jerusalem, so it would take in Europe and Africa - the very places where war after war has been and where the black plague has come twice, and where millions have starved to death in the last hundred years.

The first hint of a wait is at the 5th seal: the martyrs of the church age. they are told they must WAIT for judgment to come. And we know that: it will come with the Day of the Lord.

What kind of backwards methodology are you using to make these interpretations? None of the seals have occurred yet. All of the seals, trumpets, and vial judgments occur during the 7-year tribulation period and NOT over the course of thousands of years. You are also adding things to the Scripture that aren't there.

Occam's Razor... the black & pale horse represent famine and pestilence, respectively, which is preceded by war, the red horse. The white horse is obviously not the church. To say otherwise would be breaking the consistency of the Scriptures. It's comparable to saying Israel is symbolic Babylon.

Look at the 5th, 6th, and 7th seals, trumpets, and vials. The 5th of each focuses on what is occurring in the antichrist's kingdom; the 6th of each focuses on events that affect the world as a whole; and the 7th of each loosens more judgments upon the earth with a perspective view from Heaven.

The idea that all of these judgments are occurring over thousands of years is complete nonsense. If you think any of the past events that occurred in history were bad, they will "pale" in comparison to the judgments in Revelation.

 

[iamlamad]

I don't think you quite get my point. To be in chronological order, that would mean all chapters would have to be in perfect order from beginning to ending. But we know this is not true. Rev. 12 starts with the telling of Israel giving birth to Jesus and chapter 11 it ends with Gods wrath, so is that chronological order ? Of course not.

Babylon and the Harlot being judged is nothing more than the Plagues of God on them from chapter 16, etc. etc. These are different visions that overlap.

As per the 200 thousand thousand, I did a thread on that about a month ago pointing out it is an Army of God.

Is the 200 Million Man Army an Army of God or of Israels Enemies ?

So, looking forward, not from Johns perspective of the vision, why would the Euphrates need to be dried up in a modern world, where bridges exist and and the capability of crossing rivers with huge Armies was proven to be somewhat of an easy chore in World War Two ? That is the logical question. Is the Army even an Army of wicked men or is it an army of Angels/Saints ? Is this event symbolism of Israel/Judah being saved by Cyrus, the "anointed one" (Isaiah 45:1) a type of Christ/Messiah, via the drying up of the River Euphrates. (A lot of OT Symbolism in Revelation, no doubt.)

The deliverance from the Babylonian captivity as foreseen by Isaiah becomes in itself a prophetic picture of the deliverance of the spiritual Israel, God’s remnant people, with the conquering Cyrus (Christ) as the great Deliverer for whom they have waited. The designation of Cyrus as “my Anointed” in Isaiah 45:1 is significant for in the Hebrew it is “my Messiah” and the Greek form of course is “Christ”, both forms meaning “anointed”.This, with the designation ‘My Shepherd’ (48:28) also a messianic title, marks Cyrus as a type or symbol of Christ”. Isaiah 46 and 47 continues the prophecy of Cyrus (but also adds what can only be future events) but its all linked with the description of the destruction of Babylon. In Revelation 18, the pattern is repeated in almost identical fashion concerning end time spiritual Babylon.


Is this an Army of men of War attacking Israel, or an Army of Men/Saints/Angels delivering Israel and ushering in Gods plagues ? In Revelation 9:1 a horde of Demons is loosed from the bottomless pit when the Fifth Angel sounds the Fifth trumpet, and is given the key to the bottomless pit. (Rev 9:1) Their "Breastplates were of Iron" but the Army of the Myriad or two thousand, thousand, has Breastplates of What ? {breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, } (Two Myriads we must ask, could it be the Great Multitude and the 144,000 ? Just a thought.) The breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue and sulfur yellow of the horsemen equate to the breastplate worn by the high priest. Exodus 28:15 You shall make the breastplate of judgment. Artistically woven according to the workmanship of the ephod you shall make it: of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine wove, linen, you shall make it.

Only in this case all 200 million (or all of the Myriad or the innumerable number) are being presented as high priests. The power of these horsemen (fire, smoke and brimstone) comes from their mouths and their tails. { The mouth represents The Holy Spirit/Word of God, and the tails represent the venomous (9:19 their tails were like unto serpents) actions against mankind they have been given the power to bring forth.)

Rev. 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: (Daniel 5:4) which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

So, these Myriads are placing plagues upon whom ? People that worshiped idols of gold, silver, brass, stone and wood (Just like Daniel 5 and the Judgment of Babylon) and they would not REPENT of their evil ways. This is Gods plagues, upon an evil mankind. The (200 Million ?) as they have been called, are actually two Myriads of angels/men/saints or servants of God that are Judging mankind with plagues. Everyone has this backwards in my honest opinion. Where is this 200 Million pictured as coming against Israel ? The Kings of the East in Rev. 16 is a different Judgment event than the 200 million of Rev. 9, it is a Vial Judgment/event, not a Trumpet Judgment/event. I think it is the Kings of the East alright, but it is Persia ( Just like Daniel 5 ) Syria, Turkey and the hordes of Islamic Muslims, who might very well, not being a modern army, and being barbaric and gullible they just might see the River Euphrates drying up, as a calling for them to attack Israel, these might actually travel across the River bed, and Turkey, who has a Dam that can block the water or Dry up the River might instigate this, more than likely it just dries up . (I read the basin was drying up 10 years ago.)

Lot of what ifs here, but the main thrust of the matter is, the Kings of the East and the Two Hundred Million (or Myriad and Myriad) are not the same event, at all. One is a Trumpet Judgment and the other is a Vial Judgment. The fall of Babylon was the signal for the deliverance of the Jewish remnant from their long and languishing exile under their Babylonian conquerors. Under the Persian rule, the command for their release was given, first by Cyrus the conqueror of Babylon and then by the great kings who succeeded him. Revelation again speaks of the "drying of the River of the Euphrates. Once again this needs to be connected with the deliverance of God’s remnant from the persecuting oppression of last day Babylonian overlords. (Last Beast System) The Sixth Vial (Kings of the East coming against Israel) is immediately followed by the Seventh Vial which relates to the destruction of Babylon, and the following two chapters of Revelation 17 and 18 are a prophetic enlargement of what is stated in brief in chapter 16.

The drying up of Euphrates therefore must be taken in a prophetic sense, of the way being prepared for the final overthrow of the great Satanic oppression that has made the nations drunk with its wine. So attack and oppression is followed by deliverance. In Revelation 19 we see Christ, the KING of kings, riding forth with the armies (Saints and Angels) of heaven. They come to deliver God's remnant people (Israel and Christians who were left) and put an end to Babylon and the forces supporting Babylon.

Ancient Babylon a city "most proud," with "a golden cup…that made all the earth drunken…of her wine." Jeremiah 50:32; 51:7. Has a remarkable link to last day Babylon in Revelation 17-18. (False Religion and Gov. without God at its head) Yet she was to fall suddenly and be destroyed (Jeremiah 51:8). Then God would call Israel, saying, "My people, go ye out of the midst of her." Jeremiah 51:45. These exact words are repeated in the book of Revelation to Israel about the importance of coming out of modern Babylon (Revelation 17:4, 5; 18:2-8).

Jeremiah 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

50:31 Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.
51:7 Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.

51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.

Amazing !! This matches up with with God judging Babylon the Great Harlot in Rev. 17 and judging Babylon the Beast/Gov. System in Rev. 18. The Sixth trumpet begins with the mention of a voice coming from the golden altar before God. As this altar is also called the 'altar of incense', there is an implication that this 6th trumpet event occurs in answer to prayer, Rev 5:8. In the narrative of the 6th trumpet we have a clear historical reference back to when the Chaldeans crossed the Euphrates and defeated the house of Judah. Refer 2 Chronicles 36:15-20. In the book of Zephaniah, who lived in the days immediately prior to the Chaldean invasion the Day of the LORD is clearly described as a day of trouble for the land of Judah (note verses 1:4,7,10,12,14-15,18 and 2:1-3). Other nations are later mentioned, but primary attention is given to the wrath directed upon Judah.

So, have I made my case. I have been studying this a few weeks, this sprung up by accident from my studies on Babylon. What say you you?

Revelation 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis and has no bearing on chronology. Chapter 12 was God introducing John to the dragon and in particular what the dragon or devil would be doing during the last half of the week. But God CHOSE to show John what the dragon did when He was born. So yes, STILL in Chronological order. You must learn to recognize parentheses.

Babylon and the Harlot being judged is nothing more than the Plagues of God on them from chapter 16, etc. etc. These are different visions that overlap.

I disagree. Chapters 17 and 18 are what will take place AFTER the 70th week has ended with the 7th vial, and before Jesus returns. In other words, in chronological order.

There are millions of "stan" countries East of the Euphrates River. My guess is that all the fighting men from these nations will march on Israel. Perhaps many will ride horses. Some will drive tanks.

I agree, not the same group. Because chronology will not allow that.

 

[iamlamad]

How could the first seal being broken in 32AD, if the seals were not broken until John saw them broken late in his life?

In a vision it can be past, present or future. In fact, this was a vision of the past. If you look at 12:1-5, that also is a brief look into the past when Jesus was born.

 

[Waterwerx]

I don't think you quite get my point. To be in chronological order, that would mean all chapters would have to be in perfect order from beginning to ending. But we know this is not true. Rev. 12 starts with the telling of Israel giving birth to Jesus and chapter 11 it ends with Gods wrath, so is that chronological order ? Of course not.

Babylon and the Harlot being judged is nothing more than the Plagues of God on them from chapter 16, etc. etc. These are different visions that overlap.

As per the 200 thousand thousand, I did a thread on that about a month ago pointing out it is an Army of God.

Is the 200 Million Man Army an Army of God or of Israels Enemies ?

So, looking forward, not from Johns perspective of the vision, why would the Euphrates need to be dried up in a modern world, where bridges exist and and the capability of crossing rivers with huge Armies was proven to be somewhat of an easy chore in World War Two ? That is the logical question. Is the Army even an Army of wicked men or is it an army of Angels/Saints ? Is this event symbolism of Israel/Judah being saved by Cyrus, the "anointed one" (Isaiah 45:1) a type of Christ/Messiah, via the drying up of the River Euphrates. (A lot of OT Symbolism in Revelation, no doubt.)

The deliverance from the Babylonian captivity as foreseen by Isaiah becomes in itself a prophetic picture of the deliverance of the spiritual Israel, God’s remnant people, with the conquering Cyrus (Christ) as the great Deliverer for whom they have waited. The designation of Cyrus as “my Anointed” in Isaiah 45:1 is significant for in the Hebrew it is “my Messiah” and the Greek form of course is “Christ”, both forms meaning “anointed”.This, with the designation ‘My Shepherd’ (48:28) also a messianic title, marks Cyrus as a type or symbol of Christ”. Isaiah 46 and 47 continues the prophecy of Cyrus (but also adds what can only be future events) but its all linked with the description of the destruction of Babylon. In Revelation 18, the pattern is repeated in almost identical fashion concerning end time spiritual Babylon.


Is this an Army of men of War attacking Israel, or an Army of Men/Saints/Angels delivering Israel and ushering in Gods plagues ? In Revelation 9:1 a horde of Demons is loosed from the bottomless pit when the Fifth Angel sounds the Fifth trumpet, and is given the key to the bottomless pit. (Rev 9:1) Their "Breastplates were of Iron" but the Army of the Myriad or two thousand, thousand, has Breastplates of What ? {breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, } (Two Myriads we must ask, could it be the Great Multitude and the 144,000 ? Just a thought.) The breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue and sulfur yellow of the horsemen equate to the breastplate worn by the high priest. Exodus 28:15 You shall make the breastplate of judgment. Artistically woven according to the workmanship of the ephod you shall make it: of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine wove, linen, you shall make it.

Only in this case all 200 million (or all of the Myriad or the innumerable number) are being presented as high priests. The power of these horsemen (fire, smoke and brimstone) comes from their mouths and their tails. { The mouth represents The Holy Spirit/Word of God, and the tails represent the venomous (9:19 their tails were like unto serpents) actions against mankind they have been given the power to bring forth.)

Rev. 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: (Daniel 5:4) which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

So, these Myriads are placing plagues upon whom ? People that worshiped idols of gold, silver, brass, stone and wood (Just like Daniel 5 and the Judgment of Babylon) and they would not REPENT of their evil ways. This is Gods plagues, upon an evil mankind. The (200 Million ?) as they have been called, are actually two Myriads of angels/men/saints or servants of God that are Judging mankind with plagues. Everyone has this backwards in my honest opinion. Where is this 200 Million pictured as coming against Israel ? The Kings of the East in Rev. 16 is a different Judgment event than the 200 million of Rev. 9, it is a Vial Judgment/event, not a Trumpet Judgment/event. I think it is the Kings of the East alright, but it is Persia ( Just like Daniel 5 ) Syria, Turkey and the hordes of Islamic Muslims, who might very well, not being a modern army, and being barbaric and gullible they just might see the River Euphrates drying up, as a calling for them to attack Israel, these might actually travel across the River bed, and Turkey, who has a Dam that can block the water or Dry up the River might instigate this, more than likely it just dries up . (I read the basin was drying up 10 years ago.)

Lot of what ifs here, but the main thrust of the matter is, the Kings of the East and the Two Hundred Million (or Myriad and Myriad) are not the same event, at all. One is a Trumpet Judgment and the other is a Vial Judgment. The fall of Babylon was the signal for the deliverance of the Jewish remnant from their long and languishing exile under their Babylonian conquerors. Under the Persian rule, the command for their release was given, first by Cyrus the conqueror of Babylon and then by the great kings who succeeded him. Revelation again speaks of the "drying of the River of the Euphrates. Once again this needs to be connected with the deliverance of God’s remnant from the persecuting oppression of last day Babylonian overlords. (Last Beast System) The Sixth Vial (Kings of the East coming against Israel) is immediately followed by the Seventh Vial which relates to the destruction of Babylon, and the following two chapters of Revelation 17 and 18 are a prophetic enlargement of what is stated in brief in chapter 16.

The drying up of Euphrates therefore must be taken in a prophetic sense, of the way being prepared for the final overthrow of the great Satanic oppression that has made the nations drunk with its wine. So attack and oppression is followed by deliverance. In Revelation 19 we see Christ, the KING of kings, riding forth with the armies (Saints and Angels) of heaven. They come to deliver God's remnant people (Israel and Christians who were left) and put an end to Babylon and the forces supporting Babylon.

Ancient Babylon a city "most proud," with "a golden cup…that made all the earth drunken…of her wine." Jeremiah 50:32; 51:7. Has a remarkable link to last day Babylon in Revelation 17-18. (False Religion and Gov. without God at its head) Yet she was to fall suddenly and be destroyed (Jeremiah 51:8). Then God would call Israel, saying, "My people, go ye out of the midst of her." Jeremiah 51:45. These exact words are repeated in the book of Revelation to Israel about the importance of coming out of modern Babylon (Revelation 17:4, 5; 18:2-8).

Jeremiah 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

50:31 Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.
51:7 Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.

51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.

Amazing !! This matches up with with God judging Babylon the Great Harlot in Rev. 17 and judging Babylon the Beast/Gov. System in Rev. 18. The Sixth trumpet begins with the mention of a voice coming from the golden altar before God. As this altar is also called the 'altar of incense', there is an implication that this 6th trumpet event occurs in answer to prayer, Rev 5:8. In the narrative of the 6th trumpet we have a clear historical reference back to when the Chaldeans crossed the Euphrates and defeated the house of Judah. Refer 2 Chronicles 36:15-20. In the book of Zephaniah, who lived in the days immediately prior to the Chaldean invasion the Day of the LORD is clearly described as a day of trouble for the land of Judah (note verses 1:4,7,10,12,14-15,18 and 2:1-3). Other nations are later mentioned, but primary attention is given to the wrath directed upon Judah.

So, have I made my case. I have been studying this a few weeks, this sprung up by accident from my studies on Babylon. What say you you?

If I remember correctly, it uses the plural "armies" in the 6th trumpet. Its basically saying that now(i.e. when the 6th trumpet is blown) the number of the armies of the horsemen will have reached 200 million. The actions of these armies antagonized by four angels bound at the Euphrates leads to the death of 1.85 billion people using today's population figures(this is after 1.85 billion were previously wiped out by the resulting pestilence from war, hunger, death, and beasts of the earth). I do not believe these are demonic/angelic armies and that the death toll figures include the individuals in these armies as well as those of the opposing armies.

 

[Revealing Times]

If I remember correctly, it uses the plural "armies" in the 6th trumpet. Its basically saying that now(i.e. when the 6th trumpet is blown) the number of the armies of the horsemen will have reached 200 million. The actions of these armies antagonized by four angels bound at the Euphrates leads to the death of 1.85 billion people using today's population figures(this is after 1.85 billion were previously wiped out by the resulting pestilence from war, hunger, death, and beasts of the earth). I do not believe these are demonic/angelic armies and that the death toll figures include the individuals in these armies as well as those of the opposing armies.

The Kings of the East is the 6th Vial, this 200 million army is the 6th Trumpet. The six Trumpet clearly says it is plagues of God.

 

[Waterwerx]

The Kings of the East is the 6th Vial, this 200 million army id the 6th Trumpet. The six Trumpet clearly says it is plagues of God.

And just because it is a plague from God, by your reasoning, God just does it Himself and mankind plays absolutely no role in it as agents of destruction.
All of the destruction you read of in Revelation up until Christ's physical return to the earth is caused by warring between the nations. This is the agent which God uses to gather their armies to one location in Israel, Armageddon. The demon army theory is a bunch of nonsense.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

The fallen angels of chapter 9 including Abaddon [those in the abyss and those bound at the Euphrates River] will rage upon the earth during the entire tribulation period of 2550 days

These will torment and kill billions of humans world wide and all will be under Satan's command [Revelation 9]

The kings of the east are human armies who will traverse the dried Euphrates River bed starting at the Persian gulf and moving to the arena of the battle of Armageddon

These will be a part of Abaddon's confederated Middle Eastern kingdom who will join in on the battle .... the Muslim states of Afghanistan and Pakistan to the east

 

[Revealing Times]

And just because it is a plague from God, by your reasoning, God just does it Himself and mankind plays absolutely no role in it as agents of destruction.
All of the destruction you read of in Revelation up until Christ's physical return to the earth is caused by warring between the nations. This is the agent which God uses to gather their armies to one location in Israel, Armageddon. The demon army theory is a bunch of nonsense.

Well instead of just accepting an idea, lets delve into the facts.

1. First Trumpet = The First Angel sounded and cast Hail mingled and blood down to earth burning all the grass and 1/3 of the trees on earth. ( No Human actions here )

2. Second Trumpet = The Second Angel sounded and a great Mountain (meteor) was cast into the oceans and 1/3 of all the waters turned to blood 1/3 Sea life killed, 1/3 of ships destroyed. (No Human actions here)

3. Third Trumpet = The Third Angel sounded, a Star (Angel) comes down to earth and poisons 1/3 of all the waters. Many men Died. (No Human Actions here)

4. The Fourth Trumpet = The Fourth Angel sounded and the sun, moon and stars lights were reduced or all darkened by 1/3 measurement. (No Human Actions here)

5. The Fifth Trumpet = The Fifth Angel sounded and a Star (Angel) comes to earth with a key to the bottomless pit. He releases Apollyon and a horde of Demons against Man-kind. (No human Actions here)

6. The Sixth Trumpet = The Sixth Angel sounds, and of course the 200 Million Army of God slays a 1/3 part of men with fire, smoke and brimstone. ( No Human Action here ) Rev. 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands.....

7 The Seventh Trumpet = The Seventh Angel sounds and basically there are thunders in Heaven and going on in Heaven, an announcement that the Kingdom of God was almost at hand. (No Human Actions here)

8. The First Vial = The First Vial was pored out by an Angel, and grievous sores came upon men, that had the Mark of the Beast. (No Human Actions here)

9. The Second vial = Rev. 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. (No Human Actions here)

10 The Third Vial = Rev. 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. ( No Human Actions here )

11. The Fourth Vial = Rev. 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. (No Human Actions here)

12. The Fifth Vial = Rev. 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. ( No Human Actions here )

13. The Sixth Vial = Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ( So Three Demon Spirits entice men to war, here is a Human Action, but a Demonic power is bringing this to pass. )

14. The Seventh Vial = The Seventh angel Sounded and a Voice said it is done and.....Rev. 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. ( These are Plagues of God, not actions of men. )

These are Plagues of God, not of men.

 

[stephen583]

As evidenced by the myriad dissenting opinions expressed in this thread, I think the OP has set a very high bar when it comes to sorting out the eschatological theories surrounding what is described in the Revelation. Even among Bible scholars with PHD's in theology, there is widespead disagreement as to the meaning of the Revelation. There really doesn't appear to be any real consensus.

For instance, some Bible scholars think the Revelation deals exclusively with the events of the Tribulation Period, (The last seven years at the Time of the End), while others take a more "historist" view of these prophecies and contend at least some of them could encompass the "final generation" identified in Matthew 24. We also have to consider what a biblical generation represents. 40 years, 70 years, or does it refer generally to a certain group of people who are associated with some historic era, (such as the generation of people who established the modern day state of Israel). All three interpretations of a generation are supported by various Scripture.

Then we have the opinions of Pre-Millennialists, Post Millennialists and A-Millennialists to consider, not to mention the timing of the Gog-Magog War. The chronology of the events described in the Revelation, is so hotly contested on so many levels, it virtually baffles the mind.. At present, there are over 300 different denominations of Christianity in the world, and just about as many interpretations of what the Revelation is about.

Good Luck sorting it all out on the basis of your particular doctrinal beliefs. You'll certainly need it.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly;"... (1 Corinthians 13:12).

 

[iamlamad]

Well instead of just accepting an idea, lets delve into the facts.

1. First Trumpet = The First Angel sounded and cast Hail mingled and blood down to earth burning all the grass and 1/3 of the trees on earth. ( No Human actions here )

2. Second Trumpet = The Second Angel sounded and a great Mountain (meteor) was cast into the oceans and 1/3 of all the waters turned to blood 1/3 Sea life killed, 1/3 of ships destroyed. (No Human actions here)

3. Third Trumpet = The Third Angel sounded, a Star (Angel) comes down to earth and poisons 1/3 of all the waters. Many men Died. (No Human Actions here)

4. The Fourth Trumpet = The Fourth Angel sounded and the sun, moon and stars lights were reduced or all darkened by 1/3 measurement. (No Human Actions here)

5. The Fifth Trumpet = The Fifth Angel sounded and a Star (Angel) comes to earth with a key to the bottomless pit. He releases Apollyon and a horde of Demons against Man-kind. (No human Actions here)

6. The Sixth Trumpet = The Sixth Angel sounds, and of course the 200 Million Army of God slays a 1/3 part of men with fire, smoke and brimstone. ( No Human Action here ) Rev. 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands.....

7 The Seventh Trumpet = The Seventh Angel sounds and basically there are thunders in Heaven and going on in Heaven, an announcement that the Kingdom of God was almost at hand. (No Human Actions here)

8. The First Vial = The First Vial was pored out by an Angel, and grievous sores came upon men, that had the Mark of the Beast. (No Human Actions here)

9. The Second vial = Rev. 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. (No Human Actions here)

10 The Third Vial = Rev. 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. ( No Human Actions here )

11. The Fourth Vial = Rev. 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. (No Human Actions here)

12. The Fifth Vial = Rev. 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. ( No Human Actions here )

13. The Sixth Vial = Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ( So Three Demon Spirits entice men to war, here is a Human Action, but a Demonic power is bringing this to pass. )

14. The Seventh Vial = The Seventh angel Sounded and a Voice said it is done and.....Rev. 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. ( These are Plagues of God, not actions of men. )

These are Plagues of God, not of men.

Great post! Right on target, and TRUTH!

 

[iamlamad]

My point on Chronology: it is perfect. God made it! There is no need to rearrange. Period.

In general, what is written in one chapter of Revelation will come AFTER things written in previous chapters, and before things written is later chapters. So as we read through chapter after chapter, we are stepping through time, so to speak, for the events still in the future will happen in the same order John has given them. Yet many people seem to feel a need to REARRANGE what John has written, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Waterwerx]

Well instead of just accepting an idea, lets delve into the facts.

1. First Trumpet = The First Angel sounded and cast Hail mingled and blood down to earth burning all the grass and 1/3 of the trees on earth. ( No Human actions here )

2. Second Trumpet = The Second Angel sounded and a great Mountain (meteor) was cast into the oceans and 1/3 of all the waters turned to blood 1/3 Sea life killed, 1/3 of ships destroyed. (No Human actions here)

3. Third Trumpet = The Third Angel sounded, a Star (Angel) comes down to earth and poisons 1/3 of all the waters. Many men Died. (No Human Actions here)

4. The Fourth Trumpet = The Fourth Angel sounded and the sun, moon and stars lights were reduced or all darkened by 1/3 measurement. (No Human Actions here)

5. The Fifth Trumpet = The Fifth Angel sounded and a Star (Angel) comes to earth with a key to the bottomless pit. He releases Apollyon and a horde of Demons against Man-kind. (No human Actions here)

6. The Sixth Trumpet = The Sixth Angel sounds, and of course the 200 Million Army of God slays a 1/3 part of men with fire, smoke and brimstone. ( No Human Action here ) Rev. 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands.....

7 The Seventh Trumpet = The Seventh Angel sounds and basically there are thunders in Heaven and going on in Heaven, an announcement that the Kingdom of God was almost at hand. (No Human Actions here)

8. The First Vial = The First Vial was pored out by an Angel, and grievous sores came upon men, that had the Mark of the Beast. (No Human Actions here)

9. The Second vial = Rev. 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. (No Human Actions here)

10 The Third Vial = Rev. 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. ( No Human Actions here )

11. The Fourth Vial = Rev. 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. (No Human Actions here)

12. The Fifth Vial = Rev. 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. ( No Human Actions here )

13. The Sixth Vial = Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ( So Three Demon Spirits entice men to war, here is a Human Action, but a Demonic power is bringing this to pass. )

14. The Seventh Vial = The Seventh angel Sounded and a Voice said it is done and.....Rev. 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. ( These are Plagues of God, not actions of men. )

These are Plagues of God, not of men.

Facts? This is myopic and interpreting misquoted or wrongly modified Scripture. In the first trumpet, it does not say the angel blowing the trumpet performs the following action of casting hail and fire mingled with blood upon the earth.
In the second trumpet you left out "as it were", which means the unknown
conflagration is being compared to a great burning mountain being thrown into the sea. Mountains are on the earth, not in space flying around as meteors. Given the absence of there being a reference to heaven, I would hardly assume the object has its origins in the heavens as a meteor.
Third trumpet you do the same thing. It says nothing about an angel(i.e. HE, HIM, etc.) coming down and poisoning the waters. It is identified with a proper noun, and in the absence of the aforementioned "he" or "him" it is incorrect to equate it to being an angel.

I could go on and on, but I think I would be wasting my time since you have this idea that God will do it all and does not use mankind's wickedness as instruments of his judgments.

 

[parousia70]

If I remember correctly, it uses the plural "armies" in the 6th trumpet. Its basically saying that now(i.e. when the 6th trumpet is blown) the number of the armies of the horsemen will have reached 200 million.

Well, we've got some time then....
Today's global Equine Population is roughly 58 million, and has suffered a net population decrease of about 1 million per year for the past 3 years...even if we reverse that trend tomorrow, its Gonna be hundreds of years before there are 200 million Horses on earth for these "Horsemen" to ride into battle... and then there's the logistics of transporting all these Horses to the ME....

 

[Straightshot]

My comment


The 200 million are not humans but fallen angels empowered by the devil himself

These will take up no material space, will not need primitive means of transportation, and do not need food or water

Once out of the abyss and released from bondage at the Euphrates River, they will hunt the earth killing billions of humans [2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 9; 12:7-9]

Logistics alone would prevent fielding a human army of 200 million in the designated region of the Middle East

 

[Waterwerx]

Well, we've got some time then....
Today's global Equine Population is roughly 58 million, and has suffered a net population decrease of about 1 million per year for the past 3 years...even if we reverse that trend tomorrow, its Gonna be hundreds of years before there are 200 million Horses on earth for these "Horsemen" to ride into battle... and then there's the logistics of transporting all these Horses to the ME....

The problem is they are not flesh & blood horses that are being used. Look at the description of them and compare those descriptions to tanks and similar offensive armored vehicles. Another thing is that the number of 200 million is being attributed to "the number of the armies of the horsemen". This is not saying that 200 million men are all going to be on horses/tanks, but rather their armies altogether will consist of 200 million men.

 

[parousia70]

The problem is they are not flesh & blood horses that are being used. Look at the description of them and compare those descriptions to tanks and similar offensive armored vehicles. Another thing is that the number of 200 million is being attributed to "the number of the armies of the horsemen". This is not saying that 200 million men are all going to be on horses/tanks, but rather their armies altogether will consist of 200 million men.

Ok, so you're not a literalist then.

Got it.

 

[Waterwerx]

Ok, so you're not a literalist then.

Got it.

I'm not a literalist when it calls for not taking something literal. The parables would be an example.

 

[parousia70]

Look at the description of them and compare those descriptions to tanks and similar offensive armored vehicles.

Unless I allow for immense leeway, and wiggle-room with the text, and apply it as metaphorical allegory, I see no reason why I should abandon the actual, literal text that testifies they are Horses & Horsemen.

Descriptions perfectly fit LITERAL 1st century Roman Legions, no metaphorical, allegorical, centuries-leaping technology gymnastics needed:

On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces.” Roman equestrian helmet. Valkhof Museum, Nijmegen.

“On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces.” Roman Horse Armor Straubing, Germany.

“They had breastplates like breastplates of iron.” The standard issue armor of the first century shown below was constructed of plates of iron.

“The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions.” Roman Horse Armor Landesmuseum Bonn, Bonn. Roman Legions.

I suppose If we apply a Hollywood style fantasy interpretation to the literal text the way you are suggesting, we could come up with any interpretation we want... breastplates = ufos, faces of Lions = legions of starships, Mordor, & hogworts... Hobbits and Vulcans, Klingons and the Jem Hadar... which is fun if you're 15 and play dungeons and dragons, but unusable for serious Biblical exegesis.

 

[Waterwerx]

Unless I allow for immense leeway, and wiggle-room with the text, and apply it as metaphorical allegory, I see no reason why I should abandon the actual, literal text that testifies they are Horses & Horsemen.

Descriptions perfectly fit LITERAL 1st century Roman Legions, no metaphorical, allegorical, centuries-leaping technology gymnastics needed:

On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces.” Roman equestrian helmet. Valkhof Museum, Nijmegen.

“On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces.” Roman Horse Armor Straubing, Germany.

“They had breastplates like breastplates of iron.” The standard issue armor of the first century shown below was constructed of plates of iron.

“The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions.” Roman Horse Armor Landesmuseum Bonn, Bonn. Roman Legions.

I suppose If we apply a Hollywood style fantasy interpretation to the literal text we could come up with any interpretation we want... breastplates = ufos, faces of Lions = legions of starships, Mordor, & hogworts... Hobbits and Vulcans, Klingons and the Jem Hadar... which is fun if you're 15 and play dungeons and dragons, but unusable for serious Biblical exegesis.

And of course the problem is you ignore important words such as, "something like" and "like", which means the writer is making a description by using a comparison with things/concepts that were known to them of something unrecognizable at the time. Its not being allegorical, but literal in this case. If you believe they are actually describing Roman legions, there's definitely something wrong with your hermeneutics.

 

[Revealing Times]

Facts? This is myopic and interpreting misquoted or wrongly modified Scripture. In the first trumpet, it does not say the angel blowing the trumpet performs the following action of casting hail and fire mingled with blood upon the earth.

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. (Looks very apparent to me)

In the second trumpet you left out "as it were", which means the unknown
conflagration is being compared to a great burning mountain being thrown into the sea. Mountains are on the earth, not in space flying around as meteors. Given the absence of there being a reference to heaven, I would hardly assume the object has its origins in the heavens as a meteor.

A meteor is a huge rock, but it is irrelevant if its a meteor (my opinion) or a mountain tumbling into the Sea. It is per order of God via an Angel. An earth Mountain wouldn't be "burning with fire, a meteor would. Rev. 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; ( Rocks do nut burn easily. A meteor traveling into our atmosphere will however burn like crazy.)

Third trumpet you do the same thing. It says nothing about an angel(i.e. HE, HIM, etc.) coming down and poisoning the waters. It is identified with a proper noun, and in the absence of the aforementioned "he" or "him" it is incorrect to equate it to being an angel.

Rev. 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; { Like I stated above, it is irrelevant if its an actual Star or Angel as I believe, it is still a PLAGUE FROM GOD !! In Rev. chapter one the Seven Angels are called seven Stars. In Rev. 9 the Star that comes down with the Key to the bottomless pit is an Angel. Satan was called the Morning Star. Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. (you think a star is using a key here ?)

You can go on and on, but I have proven the Trumpets and Vials are plagues of God.